Science - number of times collected or pool to pull from?

[bmyers831]

Great game, I have a total newb question. I searched around and couldn't find anything.

For a specific action that gathers science, for instance, 'observe goo from Kerbin orbit'. How does the scoring work? Is there just a certain number of times I can do that action before it yields no science or does it have a certain number of points you can gather and it does not matter how you collect the data before you get to zero-yield?

I'm just wondering if I can simply transmit the data many times over many mission to get the same total science points. Or is the game set up so that the player can only get science from an action 3 times (or some other fixed number) making recovery extremely important.

thanks

Bryan

Edited June 20, 2014 by bmyers831

[allmhuran]

Let's define an "experiment" as one particular use of some science part in some particular zone. For example, getting out and doing one "EVA report high over the Mun" is one experiment. "EVA report in space near the Mun" is another experiment.

Each experiment, then, draws from the total value possible for that particular data in that particular zone. For example, let's say the total possible science from "EVA reports high over the Mun" is 100 points. When you perform that experiment the first time, you will gather some fraction of that possible total - say, 50 points.

You then have the option to transmit the data or hold it in the capsule and return the capsule to Kerbin. There is a separate cap on how much you get from transmission alone. Let's say the "transmisson cap" for "EVA reports high over the Mun" is 60 points.

So you can do EVA reports high over the Mun and transmit the data back until you reach the "transmission cap". Then, to get the remaining 40 points, you need to actually return to Kerbin with the data.

In general, no single experiment will exhaust the available pool, even if you return the data. So if you do an "EVA report high over the Mun", you may only get 50 of the 100 possible total even if you return the capsule to Kerbin. The exception is crew reports, which are one-off: they can be transmitted for 100% of the experiment value, and this will also exhaust the pool - doing the crew report again will earn you no science.

[AlexinTokyo]

Each experiment (by which I mean use of a piece of scientific equipment in a certain situation in a certain biome, like 'Mystery Goo' 'in space' 'over the Mun') has a total available science pool. This is the maximum amount of science it is possible to get by doing the given experiment.

Each experiment also has an 'efficiency' which determines how much of the available pool is allocated after one iteration of the experiment.

For example, EVA reports allocate the entire pool the first time the experiment is run, Goo Observations allocate about 75% (IIRC).

The amount you receive is further modified by the method of return, transmission or physical return. Each experiment's transmission efficiency determines how much of the allocated science you actually receive if you transmit the results. Physical return of the data to Kerbin always gives 100% of the allocated science.

Points that are 'lost' due to transmission are returned to the overall pool for that experiment, so they can be regained if you do the experiment again. However, the transmission efficiency drops sharply (to 0, eventually) after transmitting once, so multiple transmissions of the same experiment are not particularly useful.

Here is a very good guide to the science available from the various different experiments.

Also worth noting that the Goo and Science Jr. modules cannot be reused once the data is removed or transmitted, unless you have a manned and powered mobile lab to 'clean' the experiments, resetting them for further use.

Edit: Ninja'd: EVA reports are also one-off and get 100% transmission, the same as crew reports.

[Claw]

...

While most of the mechanics are on the right track, EVA report is maybe a bad example since they transmit at 100%.

Each experiment can only gain so much of it's science cap by transmission, and the % is different for each piece of equipment.

Also, saying "the first experiment gives 50 out of 100 points" might be a bit misleading. The mechanics are about right, but I think the lowest points you get for the first experiment is 75% and it might be higher. So you get a large portion of the science for the first run of any experiment.

It takes roughly 4 runs of an experiment to get all of the science points for that biome (again, this varies). However, your last experiment might yield a mere fraction of a point, so it's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Claw

[allmhuran]

Crew reports definitely transmit at 100%, but I don't think EVA reports do, and the specific percentages don't really matter in order to accurately describe the mechanic, hence "you will gather some fraction of that possible total - say, 50 points"

[Claw]

The wiki (and confirmed with my stock install) states transmission rate for EVA reports is 100%.

However...

...the specific percentages don't really matter in order to accurately describe the mechanic

I totally agree with. You did a good job of explaining the mechanics. I don't mean to nitpick, I just wanted to point out that EVA reports are at 100% transmission.

What I didn't want to happen was that all that great explaining you did gets overlooked if/when someone tries it with an EVA report and it doesn't work at all like you described. Replace with gravioli or some other experiment, and it's all good.

[allmhuran]

Oh, good stuff on EVA... although that means I've been wasting delta-V carrying two pods on my latest mission! (Well not quite... still good for surface samples)

[Eric S]

Crew reports definitely transmit at 100%, but I don't think EVA reports do

Just to clear up the confusion, EVA reports transmitted at 50% in 0.22, changed to 100% in 0.23. Crew reports were at 100% in both.

[allmhuran]

Aha! Mystery solved. TY.

[bmyers831]

Excellent replies. Thanks everyone!

[TrooperCooper]

... carrying two pods on my latest mission! (Well not quite... still good for surface samples)

You can store as many different surface samples as you want in a pod. They only replace each other if they come from the same location... in which case you wouldnt get more than the one science ammount anyway.

[Claw]

...They only replace each other if they come from the same location... in which case you wouldnt get more than the one science ammount anyway.

That's exactly why he's carrying two. To store two matching samples.

[TrooperCooper]

That's exactly why he's carrying two. To store two matching samples.

Huuuh? Why would you want to carry two samples from say... the Mun Lowlands?

[Claw]

Huuuh? Why would you want to carry two samples from say... the Mun Lowlands?

To obtain more science. For surface samples (and many other experiments), you cannot gain the full science on the first run of that experiment. So some people like to gather two runs while they are already there.

[TrooperCooper]

Oooooh, I didnt know that one. Good info, thx.

[Lheim]

It's one of my small pet peeves.

I can certainly see the justification for a physical science experiment returning much less if you just transmit analysis versus bringing back the whole kit..

And for eva reports and crew reports - just simple audio, of course you're not gonna care if it's transmitted or 'brought back'.

But there's stuff like the thermometer and the gravity detector that also would provide sheer transmittable data, and shouldn't suffer loss for not being brought back.

My ideal compromise would be to allow full transmission on eva report, crew report, thermometer, gravity detector, and leave the mat science bay and mystery goo as is. Barometer I can see going either way; might be collecting atmosphere samples.

It would at least make probes more useful. Plus at least one more part: a camera for probes to be able to do 'crew reports'

[Alshain]

Realistically, there is no reason to fill up any of the science experiments. The rate of diminishing returns is so high, the first one is all you need (for recovery anyway). I've found attempting to be a "completionist" ends up being very frustrating and there is well more than enough science in the system to exhaust the tech tree 3 times over with just stock parts. Instead of repeating the same mission over and over again, try something new!

[Claw]

...

But there's stuff like the thermometer and the gravity detector that also would provide sheer transmittable data, and shouldn't suffer loss for not being brought back.

I agree with you on this. Gravioli, etc, doesn't make logical sense at face value. However, also consider game play mechanics. It's a careful balancing act of not making probes so over powered that there's no reason to send a kerbal too. If you could transmit all data at 100% (minus goo/materials), then probes have a huge advantage. Most of those experiments weigh nearly nothing while a manned mission or goo/SciJr add quite a bit of weight, not to mention the requirement to return.

So while it makes logical sense that you should be able to transmit that kind of data, one must also consider the side effects.

There almost needs to be another experiment that sort of fits in the middle. Then the pure data experiments can be reduced a bit in point status and transmission be more logical. (Either that or people need to stop feeling like they MUST get all the science, or it's some kind of failure.)

...It would at least make probes more useful. Plus at least one more part: a camera for probes to be able to do 'crew reports'

This is one of my pet peeves. People just assume away the usefullness of a probe because it can't yield full science. For the most part, you can get roughly half the science which can go a long way toward unlocking a chunk of the tree to boost the capabilities of a follow on manned trip. It's frustrating to see people dismiss half the science as "trivial" simply because it's not 100%.

"I don't wanna return it..." well then, accept that you won't get 100%. Grab the goodies and unlock some of the tree that you wouldn't have had for that next manned trip.

"But I want 100%..." well then return it or send a kerbal along for the ride.

Also need to find a balance here for giving science but yet still leave a reason to return on a later mission.

[xcorps]

But then we slide off into the whole "Science for parts" issue. Science and engineering aren't the same thing. It makes no sense that you should suddenly develop a bigger rocket engine because you scooped up some dust off the surface of Minmus and observed some goo. Additionally, there should be no reasonable limits to the amount of science you can collect. Every picture the Hubble takes increases our knowledge of deep space. That's not going to change until Hubble quits working.

Hopefully the next update will include an actual use for science besides the faulty "progress through the part tree" scheme we have today, like exchanging it for currency.

[Claw]

Yeah I can see that. I was going to post a bit more on here, but I suppose we've hijacked the thread enough.

Off to the suggestions forum!

[magnemoe]

Oh, good stuff on EVA... although that means I've been wasting delta-V carrying two pods on my latest mission! (Well not quite... still good for surface samples)

Surface samples, also the seismic and gravitational measurements you do later.

Eva and pod reports always return 100% of transmission, thermometer and barometer transmit 50% but return 100% so its best to store in pod.

Transmitting is just for backup.

Goo and material labs you return, good advice is to drop them after storing in pod.

seismic, gravitational and atmosphere scan collect around 75% and transmit around 50% of that data, an good strategy is to first transmit, then store, this take you up past 90% of possible data.

[bmyers831]

But then we slide off into the whole "Science for parts" issue. Science and engineering aren't the same thing. It makes no sense that you should suddenly develop a bigger rocket engine because you scooped up some dust off the surface of Minmus and observed some goo.....

It's not too far off if you think about it. NASA does science and in return gets money to big bigger and better stuff. The game just takes out the politics of it which is fine by me =)

Bryan