[1.0.x] [V1.9f] Kerbal Foundries wheels, anti-grav repulsors and tracks

[JAFO]

Ok.. mystery solved.

I'm trying on a relatively clean copy of KSP with the new version and I can definitely go out onto the water, it just rides lower over the water than the land...

Following this clue, I nuked my podracing install of KSP and reinstalled KSP plus Kerbal Foundries and Tweakscale only. Testing revealed that whilst the large repulsors will work on water, the smaller surface-mount ones no longer do so. Before, all my testing was done with the surface-mount units, as that was what I'd been using on my podracer.

My apologies for all the hassle.

Time to rebuild my podracer.. sigh.

[Gaalidas]

Well, we'll have to see what's different between the two repulsors and patch that. Don't give up on the old design, it may still work in the future.

[JAFO]

Ok.. thanks!

[Gaalidas]

Oddly, I am having a hard time reproducing it, but I think this will do it. I think that the fact I was twiddling with cfgs (node_attach values) and reloading the database is involved. Not positive.

1. Load KSP, new sandbox.

2. Make craft, repulsor parts on it, save. Launch or don't, either way. I don't think anything about the craft matters, and I'm not even sure you have to make a craft at all.

3. Space center -> Alt-F12, database, reload all.

4. Go to SPH, load craft, launch craft. Now there are 2 instances of the KF icon and every scene switch will create one more.

5. To verify, go back and forth between KSC and runway (or whatever).

Going to see if I can replicate it WITHOUT the database reload.

EDIT: Can reproduce reliably. Has nothing to do with craft or part types. Just load KSP, go to KSC, reload database, then scene switching will duplicate the button. Somewhat of a false alarm apparently, sorry!

If it's all about the database reload, then that's also the user's fault and there's nothing we can do about it. At least this means we didn't screw up horribly. I'm gonna consider that a no-brain-required fix and congratulate myself on doing absolutely nothing and still managing to fix it. Yes, that's really strange of me... but I'm low on sleep and, when I stay up this late, absolutely anything can happen.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm German and learned French as my 2nd foreign language. English was the 1st one with more emphasis on British English over American English because the pronounciation of BE is a bit closer to German. IMO all AE speakers mumble. I don't know why but it just sounds like that to me. Especially Texan English just sounds like rwrwrwrwwwwww all the time. ^^

Texan English sounds like that to the rest of us AE speakers too.

- - - Updated - - -

In my language this is a sound only goats can produce.

Also my English dictionary doesn't know this word.

Well, goats make that noise too. But you see... humans can mimic these noises, and do so often even without thinking. For this instance, it's the noise we make when we're being noncommittal and/or pathetic. The difference between the goat version and the human version is that the goat will end the phrase with a solid break, while the human will leave it trailing into a sort of sigh.

I'm afraid, however, that no dictionary will recognize it... unless you have a goat dictionary... in which case it will.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm loving this update. Everything looks fine to me with SOME of the my old .crafts

At least someone has only positive things to say. I'm going to take that as a success.

[*Aqua*]

Texan English sounds like that to the rest of us AE speakers too.

Glad I'm not the only one. ^^

Gaalidas, I thought you're British! That's what GitHub says.

At least someone has only positive things to say. I'm going to take that as a success.

There's one more positive thing: the version number increased!

At least for the forum title. AssemblyInfo.cs still states 1.8.*. O_o

Are there any serious game breaking bugs which needs immediately bugfixing?

[lo-fi]

Ha! I did forget to bump the assembly info.

Not sure what's going on with the surface repulsors over water, that's most odd.. they use the same module and rig as the rest!

I've just skimmed through, but I don't see anything game breaking so far. The gui icon database reload replication is annoying and would be nice to fix, though not the sort of thing an average player will be doing regularly.

Does CKAN install incorrectly? That will be a massive pain. I must have missed the damn check box - it's on by default.

Thanks for jumping in guys.

[smjjames]

The regular repulsors still have an offcenter CoM....

[leopardenthusiast]

I had a go at making the Goteki 45 craft from Wipeout Pulse and Wipeout HD.

It goes in lots of directions, most of which are backwards, and it demonstrates perfectly why all my successful hovercraft have had an enormous sail of a wing on top. It also handles jumps poorly (especially when it's going sideways, which is frequently). Still, it's better than my EG-X craft, which wouldn't even hover on the runway without falling over or disintegrating, and was well over 200 parts (a lot more than the 93 parts used on this one).

Edited August 8, 2015 by leopardenthusiast

[Gaalidas]

Ha! I did forget to bump the assembly info.

Not sure what's going on with the surface repulsors over water, that's most odd.. they use the same module and rig as the rest!

I've just skimmed through, but I don't see anything game breaking so far. The gui icon database reload replication is annoying and would be nice to fix, though not the sort of thing an average player will be doing regularly.

Does CKAN install incorrectly? That will be a massive pain. I must have missed the damn check box - it's on by default.

Thanks for jumping in guys.

Honestly I don't know what's happening with CKAN. It might be working perfectly fine, but before trying to diagnose any issues I would usually suggest installing manually.

- - - Updated - - -

I had a go at making the Goteki 45 craft from Wipeout Pulse and Wipeout HD.

http://i.imgur.com/WkQKBlz.png

It goes in lots of directions, most of which are backwards, and it demonstrates perfectly why all my successful hovercraft have had an enormous sail of a wing on top. It also handles jumps poorly (especially when it's going sideways, which is frequently). Still, it's better than my EG-X craft, which wouldn't even hover on the runway without falling over or disintegrating, and was well over 200 parts (a lot more than the 93 parts used on this one).

Hey, no one said repulsor crafts were a good idea. We did it because we could. Still, I see that the command module survived the jump which makes it a success no matter what the rest of the craft did.

- - - Updated - - -

The regular repulsors still have an offcenter CoM....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/smjjames/screenshot170_zpsnkdyaxcx.png

what are those repulsors attached to? That looks really strange.

- - - Updated - - -

Glad I'm not the only one. ^^

Gaalidas, I thought you're British! That's what GitHub says.

Are there any serious game breaking bugs which needs immediately bugfixing?

Just the malfunctioning water repulsion for the surface repulsors. But I think that one is for lo-fi to tackle.

I have no idea why Github says I'm British. I'm from Seattle, WA. (west coast of the US) and, while I have been known to pick of accents disturbingly fast, I am definitely an American-English speaker. However, it seems that our specific accent is what the world generally tried to mimic, at least as far as news casters are concerned. They call it "accent-less" English. Except for those of us with an accent that is...

[leopardenthusiast]

Hey, no one said repulsor crafts were a good idea. We did it because we could. Still, I see that the command module survived the jump which makes it a success no matter what the rest of the craft did.

Yeah, it landed survivably. Probably would've handled it better if it hadn't been going sideways, or if it had any roll control.

what are those repulsors attached to? That looks really strange.

Looks like an OKTO2.

[Bakase]

I have no idea why Github says I'm British. I'm from Seattle, WA. (west coast of the US) and, while I have been known to pick of accents disturbingly fast, I am definitely an American-English speaker. However, it seems that our specific accent is what the world generally tried to mimic, at least as far as news casters are concerned. They call it "accent-less" English. Except for those of us with an accent that is...

No they don't... I mean this is completely besides the point, but linguistics is a field that kind of interests me and that just ain't true. You're thinking of Accentless American English or General American -- the set of american accents perceived as having few regional inflections from different parts of the US.

[smjjames]

what are those repulsors attached to? That looks really strange.

It's the flat OKTO probe core. Using a really light part helps show the CoM offset easier. It's also noticeable when using RCS balancer. I didn't have that problem previously with the CoM being offset when they are placed horizontially.

Although, I should check the old KF to see what the CoM location is there.

Edit: Huh, it's actually an old problem. Not sure why It didn't give me much of a problem with engine balance before.

I'm looking into it further.....

Huh, this is really wierd.

This screenshot is with KF 1.8g.

This is with 1.9a. I did not change anything between the two, the ONLY difference (besides the camera angle) is that I removed the old one and placed the new KF in.

So, there is something REALLY subtle that changed, somehow.

Edit: Did the weight change? Edit2: Nope.

Are you guys ABSOLUTELY 100% sure that nothing got changed other than the texture for the part?

Actually, I should do a better test of it....

Made a simple setup of just a probe core (this one is from NovaPunch), tank, and engine, this is KF 1.8g

This is 1.9a

*is a bit confused* I guess the fact that the new ones have a centered CoM and the old one doesn't just makes the difference more obvious and since you need to use those auxillary power units anyway....

Edited August 8, 2015 by smjjames

[Gaalidas]

That's really weird. I have no idea. I know lo-fi did some model exports and such which could have theoretically bumped something in the wrong direction. I do know that I've fiddled with engine placement using RCS-alignment mod and took note that under certain circumstances it would show some odd miniscule torque that shouldn't be there under certain symmetry situations. Therefore, either this is a RCS-alignment mod error, or a KSP error. Both cases are uncontrollable by KF. I wouldn't put it past something else changing, but I have no way of tracking that personally. That would be for lo-fi to look into. I think he's gone into hiding though, so we'll have to wait for him to rise to the surface of the proverbial watering hole.

Also, you don't actually need to use the APU, it's just there if you do. I rarely use it myself.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Gaalidas

[lo-fi]

Rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

It's just a config line to fix that. CoMOffset. I'll get a fix out over the weekend.

[smjjames]

Rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

It's just a config line to fix that. CoMOffset. I'll get a fix out over the weekend.

OHH, I didn't know that line was in there.... Didn't notice somehow.

Edit: Um, there is no line in the part configs (the ones in the parts folder) that says CoMoffset.

Edited August 8, 2015 by smjjames

[lo-fi]

It isn't. Yet

It's little used, but works the same as a stack node position. There is, of course, no need to set the direction.

[smjjames]

How do you turn off the exhaust effects coming from the auxillary power units? Like, what do I need to remove from the config? They still do the exhaust effect even on 0 throttle and 0 thrust limiter.

[Gaalidas]

It isn't. Yet

It's little used, but works the same as a stack node position. There is, of course, no need to set the direction.

It's a situation where the fields are available to the PART node, but their default values are used when the config has no definition for it. So, technically, even if you can't see it, it's still there once the game compiles the part.

- - - Updated - - -

How do you turn off the exhaust effects coming from the auxillary power units? Like, what do I need to remove from the config? They still do the exhaust effect even on 0 throttle and 0 thrust limiter.

Lets see... without actually looking at this config myself... If there is an EFFECTS node, you could first try removing that. Of course you would also have to find the parameters in the engine config that reference the effect names that you are removing and comment/delete those lines too. As long as you don't remove anything that controls the function of the engine module you'll be fine.

That all assumes the APU is still using the engine module to hack together the necessary throttle control for the APU to function.

[leopardenthusiast]

I went back and made a few changes to my AG racer.

With the addition of four more Whiplash engines, the removal of the ram air intakes, and some extra wing panels on the underside to make it fly forwards, it's actually pretty good.

Still doesn't handle jumps well, though.

EDIT: With the addition of some fins to help control pitch, roll, and yaw better, it now completely misses the point.

Edited August 9, 2015 by leopardenthusiast

[sh1pman]

Hmm. Not sure if it's a bug or a feature. I have this big 120-ton mining rover. Before the update it could easily accelerate up to ~36 m/s very quickly, all wheels having default settings. But now this thing can't even move. I managed to get it moving veeery slowly by setting torque ratios on all of the wheels to 2, but still it's nowhere as fast as it was before. Also it can't climb even very gentle slopes. So... I'm a bit confused here.

[Neutrinovore]

So, quick question: What's "ModuleWaterSlider", and what does it do? Because for some reason, it's blowing up a probe that has NO KerbalFoundries parts on it at all! I know, it doesn't make any sense to me either, but here is a copy/paste of the (I believe) relevant section of my output log where the trouble begins:

HECS2.ProbeCore collided into ModuleWaterSlider.Collider - relative velocity: 360.5763 - impact momentum: 360.6

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)HECS2.ProbeCore Exploded!! - blast awesomeness: 0.5

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
Input is null

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
Input is null

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[HECS2.ProbeCore]: Deactivated

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[04:00:38]: HECS-2 Probe Core crashed into ModuleWaterSlider.Collider.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: WaterSlider start.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: Setting size to zero and returning.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: WaterSlider start.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: Setting size to zero and returning.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: WaterSlider start.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: Setting size to zero and returning.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: WaterSlider start.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: Setting size to zero and returning.

Etc., spam, etc., you get the idea...

Hopefully this information helps. I had a really good Asteroid intercept mission going, and I've tried several permutations of this mission in order to try to get around the problem, and this explosion ALWAYS happens in the vicinity (within ~1,000 km, fwiw) of the asteroid, not before then. But then, if I 'revert to launch' to try to restart the mission, the entire rocket stack immediately starts undergoing R.U.D. That's 'Rapid Unplanned Disassembly' for the slow ones in the back. And then the game usually crashes at this point, running out of memory, but that happens to me all the time, it's nothing specific to this problem, so anyway...

Oh, uh, other important info: Sandbox mode, latest version of KSP (1.0.4), newest version of Kerbal Foundries, the one that just came out the other day, let's see, what else... I think that's all the major stuff.

Look forward to hearing if anyone else is having this issue.

Later!

[Gaalidas]

ModuleWaterSlider only runs, from what I can tell, when the craft has a part on it that contains the KFRepulsor module. It's basically this giant collider that updates its position periodically when the repulsor equipped craft is near/over water. We had to do this to make the repulsors able to work over water due to some weirdness in how KSP handles collisions with the water surface. If your craft has no repulsors on it, you shouldn't have any interaction with that. However, I wouldn't put it past having issues if you have another craft in the scene, possibly within physics range, which is equipped with repulsors. As developers, we are incapable of fully testing everything because we are blinded by the same thing that makes mothers love their babies no matter how ugly and smelly they are.

That being said... I have no clue what the module really does under the surface so you'll have to wait for our fearless leader to explain it and figure this out.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm. Not sure if it's a bug or a feature. I have this big 120-ton mining rover. Before the update it could easily accelerate up to ~36 m/s very quickly, all wheels having default settings. But now this thing can't even move. I managed to get it moving veeery slowly by setting torque ratios on all of the wheels to 2, but still it's nowhere as fast as it was before. Also it can't climb even very gentle slopes. So... I'm a bit confused here.http://i.imgur.com/Wp6dHJZ.png

Craft weight is now taken into consideration when dealing with torque and whatnot. That being said (I say that a lot) the balance of these things needs to be tweaked a bit here and there. That's why KF is still considered in Beta. You could try adding more wheels to the rig to help support the weight, but in the end we're going to have to do some tweaking to the part configs to make them all live up to their expectations.

- - - Updated - - -

I went back and made a few changes to my AG racer.

https://i.imgur.com/2qhuECp.png

With the addition of four more Whiplash engines, the removal of the ram air intakes, and some extra wing panels on the underside to make it fly forwards, it's actually pretty good.

Still doesn't handle jumps well, though.

EDIT: With the addition of some fins to help control pitch, roll, and yaw better, it now completely misses the point.

Hah, you'll get it eventually. It's not the jump that's the problem, it's the landing that you gotta deal with. In the end, repulsors handle them about as well as wheels would. Wheels that are incredibly tall, have no wheel model, and contain lots of tricky code to make them behave.

[smjjames]

So, quick question: What's "ModuleWaterSlider", and what does it do? Because for some reason, it's blowing up a probe that has NO KerbalFoundries parts on it at all! I know, it doesn't make any sense to me either, but here is a copy/paste of the (I believe) relevant section of my output log where the trouble begins:

HECS2.ProbeCore collided into ModuleWaterSlider.Collider - relative velocity: 360.5763 - impact momentum: 360.6

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)HECS2.ProbeCore Exploded!! - blast awesomeness: 0.5

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
Input is null

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
Input is null

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[HECS2.ProbeCore]: Deactivated

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[04:00:38]: HECS-2 Probe Core crashed into ModuleWaterSlider.Collider.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: WaterSlider start.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: Setting size to zero and returning.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: WaterSlider start.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: Setting size to zero and returning.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: WaterSlider start.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: Setting size to zero and returning.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: WaterSlider start.

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)
[Kerbal Foundries - ModuleWaterSlider]: Setting size to zero and returning.

Etc., spam, etc., you get the idea...

Hopefully this information helps. I had a really good Asteroid intercept mission going, and I've tried several permutations of this mission in order to try to get around the problem, and this explosion ALWAYS happens in the vicinity (within ~1,000 km, fwiw) of the asteroid, not before then. But then, if I 'revert to launch' to try to restart the mission, the entire rocket stack immediately starts undergoing R.U.D. That's 'Rapid Unplanned Disassembly' for the slow ones in the back. And then the game usually crashes at this point, running out of memory, but that happens to me all the time, it's nothing specific to this problem, so anyway...

Oh, uh, other important info: Sandbox mode, latest version of KSP (1.0.4), newest version of Kerbal Foundries, the one that just came out the other day, let's see, what else... I think that's all the major stuff.

Look forward to hearing if anyone else is having this issue.

Later!

You ran into it as well? Huh, I had that same problem as well, except that I thought it had something to do with Kerbinside, bot KF. I'll copy over the post from the Kerbinside thread. Btw, that ship had no KF parts on it either. I didn't think to save the output log from that though.

Edit: @Gaalidas: There weren't any other craft in the area. There MIGHT have been debris though, let me look.

Edit2: Theres no debris now, but there may have been at that time, not sure.

(copied from Kerbinside) Okay, this is wierd, I somehow collided into something called a ModuleWaterSlider.collider, whie in midair surveying the route.

Just as the explosion happened:

Damage:

Better view of the spot:

Edited August 9, 2015 by smjjames

[leopardenthusiast]

Hah, you'll get it eventually. It's not the jump that's the problem, it's the landing that you gotta deal with. In the end, repulsors handle them about as well as wheels would. Wheels that are incredibly tall, have no wheel model, and contain lots of tricky code to make them behave.

Also wheels that are perfectly fine with hitting a jump at 220m/s... which is actually about the right speed for the craft it's based on. The landing wouldn't be so hard if it didn't like to flip so much. The huge stacks of winglets are clearly overkill, but I think some roll control is the solution here. The tricky part is adding roll control while keeping its shape (which the winglets definitely did not do).

With that in mind, I present version fiveish!

The changes are best displayed here. I've removed a Whiplash to shift the centre of thrust into line with the centre of mass, added some control surfaces, turned the airbrakes around to make it look more like the real thing (which I'm probably going to undo, the wrong sides are deploying), and jammed on some batteries so that Jeb doesn't immediately get smeared across a hill when I run out of fuel.

Upon taking a jump, it flew perfectly, and... slammed into the ground anyway, because the repulsors couldn't handle the impact. It's an improvement!

[smjjames]

I've reproduced that collision twice with the same ship, both with KF debris. I don't think the first one above had debris in range though.....

Output log: http://sta.sh/0xyyo2pw8u4 The fact that it hit the HoneyBadger reactor first in both cases may or may not be a coincidence.

Edited August 9, 2015 by smjjames