[0.25] Realism Overhaul w/ RedAV8R [Terminated]

[plasmeus]

When I run RO only the Earth , moon , venus , and mercury are placed and textured correctly. The stock planets are still there and though mars is in the right spot it has duna's texture. This problem did not happen when I only had RSS installed.

[RedAV8R]

When I run RO only the Earth , moon , venus , and mercury are placed and textured correctly. The stock planets are still there and though mars is in the right spot it has duna's texture. This problem did not happen when I only had RSS installed.

I'm sorry, but RO doesn't touch any of that stuff. It is a part mod only. You've got an installation problem or something. Logs would help.

[AlmightyR]

@AlmightyR: Ok, that LS file shows you what consumption/production rates are per second....also shows your RO is out of date...need to grab the new one before you go making something...So for a days worth, multiply by that MaxDeltaTime which is the number of seconds in a day. What is the setting in your KSP set for 24 or 6 hours/day?

I have downloaded RO yet again just to make sure, and...

Well...My RO isn't outdated compared to the download link's, so maybe it's the link that's outdated?

==========

As for the consumption rates...

MaxDeltaTime = 86400 = 1 day in seconds

...So 7 days = 604800 seconds...

OxygenConsumptionRate = 0.006365 oxygen per second

...So I theoretically need (604800 * 0.006365 = 3849.552) oxygen for 7 days...

...And yet...The following image clearly shows an actual need of 962.39 oxygen for 7 days...

http://i.imgur.com/fOhbSnP.png

So yea...We certainly have at least one bug here...Now we need to find out where...

This is easily testable during gameplay, using HyperEdit to put the craft straight into a geostationary orbit (148202083m with RSS) as the mission time counter starts, and so that's what I did...Here's the result (Pay attention to the mission timer):

Mission start:

LS resources ending:

However, I noticed the mission timer too is running on "6-hour days"...But the geostationary craft traversed just about 1/4 of a single full rotation (/day), so a few things are confirmed from this:

• RSS is not scaling the mission-timer to 24 hours (did it use to? I can't remember...)
  
• TacLS's applied rates (those observed in-game) as well as the build-aid are set for and working on 6-hour days.
  
• Apparently something is messed up with the game's timescale, and it's taking "7 kerbal days" (7[days] * 6h = 42h~) for RSS's Kerbin to do 1/4 (6h~) of it's rotation...Or vice-versa...
  [EDIT:] Correction - Something/someone (possibly myself) messed up the formula I had set up for google's hidden calculator for calculating the geostationary orbits...Kerbin's rotation is taking about 4 "days" (3d5h) on the 6-hours/day scale. I'll need to re-do the tests...
  
• ...And since the rates are clearly not 1-unit-to-1-volume as apparently intended by RO, then RO's changes to the rates are not taking effect or are not being the intended ones.
  

What should be done? I have no idea...You guys are the modders...You tell me...

Edited July 30, 2014 by AlmightyR

[RedAV8R]

Config file, yeah, you've got the right one, I misread something, that's my fault...So let me ask again...KSP setting, the actual setting in the main general KSP settings page...is it set for Kerbin 6 hour day or Earth 24 hour day???

[Phredward]

I just installed the latest RSS, RO, required packs, and some parts packs. It looks like some engines are no longer placeable in multiples underneath a tank. AIES engines still can be placed multiply, and some others, but not stock or KW engines. I'm not sure if this is an RO issue, and RO / AIES incompatibility, or just something I messed up in the install.

[AlmightyR]

Config file, yeah, you've got the right one, I misread something, that's my fault...So let me ask again...KSP setting, the actual setting in the main general KSP settings page...is it set for Kerbin 6 hour day or Earth 24 hour day???

It was set for 6h...Now I've set it for 24h.

Seems that was the issue with the 6-hour-day scales, so that's one less problem...LS resources are still uneven and, except for the fact the 7 days from before became 1 day 18 hours, they are unchanged...I haven't restarted the game tho...So I'll try that...

[Midanthrope]

Heyo Red,

Know it's still a WIP just want to give you a heads up. LaztekDragonChute appears to cause the game to hang on load. Memory usage is only 2.94GB up to that point (have 16) and using x64 so don't think that is the issue. Removing the Laztek folder corrects the issue, but I've not removed the singular part and tried.

Edit: Did a little bit of testing further by removing the part. The LaztekDragonV2Chute was the next culprit of the freeze. I then removed both chutes, and the start up went fine. Reinstated the two chutes, but removed RO, and startup went fine. Hope that helps a bit. Appreciate all the work you guys put in.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Midanthrope

[RedAV8R]

I just installed the latest RSS, RO, required packs, and some parts packs. It looks like some engines are no longer placeable in multiples underneath a tank. AIES engines still can be placed multiply, and some others, but not stock or KW engines. I'm not sure if this is an RO issue, and RO / AIES incompatibility, or just something I messed up in the install.

I'll take a look at it today...I'm pretty sure what's wrong. The surface attach was removed...So the question is...should it be there...With things like the procedural thrust plate in which nodes are able to be changed and so on dynamically, I find that a much better solution, then enabling surface attachment, which if one wanted to, could throw an engine on the side of a tank. Ideas/suggestions/comments about removing the surface attachment?

It was set for 6h...Now I've set it for 24h.

Seems that was the issue with the 6-hour-day scales, so that's one less problem...LS resources are still uneven and, except for the fact the 7 days from before became 1 day 18 hours, they are unchanged...I haven't restarted the game tho...So I'll try that...

What do you mean resources are uneven? One resource provides 8 days of use, while another provides only 4. Or that it takes 650L of oxygen for a day, but only 3L of food for that same day?

Heyo Red,

Know it's still a WIP just want to give you a heads up. LaztekDragonChute appears to cause the game to hang on load. Memory usage is only 2.94GB up to that point (have 16) and using x64 so don't think that is the issue. Removing the Laztek folder corrects the issue, but I've not removed the singular part and tried.

Edit: Did a little bit of testing further by removing the part. The LaztekDragonV2Chute was the next culprit of the freeze. I then removed both chutes, and the start up went fine. Reinstated the two chutes, but removed RO, and startup went fine. Hope that helps a bit. Appreciate all the work you guys put in.

THANK YOU! Yep, DragonChutes are likely busted due to RealChutes update and we haven't gotten that far in are walk through to ensure good 0.24 capability...NathanKell has been doing a lot of work with FASA but that's due to him needing it for a competition. I on the other hand am starting with all the stock and generic and working my way into the individual packs, only fixing other things (like the bug you've gotten) when they are pointed out. I've gotten stock and ALMOST (just tweaks to RealEngine solids) done with KW, then onto RLA and NP (When that update drops).

[RedAV8R]

Speaking of TAC, does the fuel balancer work with realfuels? Also after getting ro all the fuel tanks are smaller than normal. Any way to fix it without downloading anything?

Yes TAC Fuel Balancer works AFAIK.

"smaller than normal", need some more detail here?

[Jetwave]

Yes TAC Fuel Balancer works AFAIK.

"smaller than normal", need some more detail here?

Sorry, I was on my phone since I couldn't get on my computer. What I mean is that normal 1.25m parts, like the SRBs you start with, appear to be resized to 1m or .75m or something like that. Probe sized. I'll try installing tweakscale and see if that helps.

You say you don't want to use RPL because it requires RftS engines. If I were to have a look at his code, I might be able to create a tech tree similar to his, but without needing RftS. Also RPL seems to focus more around interstellar from what I saw, I could make a tree that includes the mods from RO if you want.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Jetwave

[RedAV8R]

@Jetwave...Um...I still need more details. Give me a specific list of parts that you think are the wrong size. SRBs at least in stock have been reworked as part of RealEngines, that release may not have happened yet. As soon as I finish up these KW RealEngine SRBs soon, I'll get that release out hopefully this morning.

[Jetwave]

I'm just waiting for ksp to start up, gonna see if I can resize the parts with tweakscale. From what I've seen so far, everything except the command pod are too small, or the command pod is too big. I only got to the 2nd or 3rd tech level tho, cause the smaller parts made it much harder to fly.

[Jetwave]

Fixed it! installing tweakscale let me resize the stuff to the right size. Turns out the command pod was 2m instead of 1.25m, which made all the tanks and engines look small. Unfortunatly I can't shrink the pod with tweakscale, but I can make the other parts bigger. Dunno if any other pods besides the original are too big, haven't unlocked them yet.

EDIT: It is a bit weird having 10m parts from the start, I guess whoever maintains tweakscale hasn't added tech integration.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Jetwave

[RedAV8R]

@Jetwave...I'll let you know, there is NO support for career mode with RO yet, absolutely none. What I can and will tell you is that the command pods ARE NOT tweakable with RO. Default Mk1-2 is now at nearly 4m like Apollo, the Mk1 pod is about Mercury size.

[Jetwave]

@Jetwave...I'll let you know, there is NO support for career mode with RO yet, absolutely none. What I can and will tell you is that the command pods ARE NOT tweakable with RO. Default Mk1-2 is now at nearly 4m like Apollo, the Mk1 pod is about Mercury size.

Ok, that explains it. Any configs in RO I can change to return them to normal size?

[Phredward]

I'll take a look at it today...I'm pretty sure what's wrong. The surface attach was removed...So the question is...should it be there...With things like the procedural thrust plate in which nodes are able to be changed and so on dynamically, I find that a much better solution, then enabling surface attachment, which if one wanted to, could throw an engine on the side of a tank. Ideas/suggestions/comments about removing the surface attachment?

It would be great if it was both simple to attach multiple rockets to the bottom of tanks, and didn't require any specific part mods. Other than that, I haven't played around with the thrust plates yet, so don't have a strong opinion. Thanks for looking into this.

On a side note, is anyone using the new RO with 32 bit KSP? I'm stuck on a mac, and I'm running out of memory building even small rockets in the VAB.

[Vigelius]

When I run RO only the Earth , moon , venus , and mercury are placed and textured correctly. The stock planets are still there and though mars is in the right spot it has duna's texture. This problem did not happen when I only had RSS installed.

I had that happen in 32bit, but everything was arranged fine in 64bit. I'm not going to start guessing why that might be, though.

[RedAV8R]

Ok, that explains it. Any configs in RO I can change to return them to normal size?

No, that is the whole intent of this mod called REALISM Overhaul. It's not realistic to cram 3 people into a pod that is 2.5m in diameter along with all the other stuff needed. While I don't mind others changing things, and that is part of the license, I won't help or offer support. I've got enough on my plate updating things, I'm not going to stop every time somebody posts and wants to change something back to the way it was.

It would be great if it was both simple to attach multiple rockets to the bottom of tanks, and didn't require any specific part mods. Other than that, I haven't played around with the thrust plates yet, so don't have a strong opinion. Thanks for looking into this.

On a side note, is anyone using the new RO with 32 bit KSP? I'm stuck on a mac, and I'm running out of memory building even small rockets in the VAB.

It is pretty simple to use the thrust plate, and it's part of procedural parts, which is very much recommended. That said, there are the 2x1,3x1,4x1 adapters one could use as those are TweakScale enabled.

I still generally test things in 32-bit, but my install is pretty bland and required stuff only, usually low res, just for speed of loading and what not. Really depends on how many other mods you have running, part packs, and how big of textures you are using with RSS. Personally, I'm using the 8K for Earth, and 2K for all the rest to keep memory requirements low.

I had that happen in 32bit, but everything was arranged fine in 64bit. I'm not going to start guessing why that might be, though.

[Mr.Rocket]

Is there any way to control the thrust on any engines? I tried deleting Engine Thrust Controller (yes, i do realize it is a necessary mod), but the engines still don't throttle. It's kind of hard when you can only have 0% or 100% thrust, especially for landing, and it destroys rockets in FAR if they go too fast. Not even the tweakable throttle in the VAB does anything.

Any way I could change this?

[Vigelius]

RealEngines is no longer a separate download, it's been integrated into RealismOverhaul itself.

I asked about an EnginePack because if you do, then the RealEngine configs won't load. This is done with the ":NEEDS[!RftS,!RealFuels_StockEngines]" tag. If you have a folder with either of these (RftS or RealFuels_StockEngines), or some other MM config with a :FOR of either of these then RealEngines will not load.

Provide a log and we can try to help you out.

As far as I can tell, I have neither of those kicking around. And I haven't consciously downloaded them, so I would be surprised if I did!

Trouble is, I can't find any reference to Real Engines in the RO stuff I have got.

Dummy question: I've got a log, where do you want me to put it? I'm guessing I won't be popular if I start copying mountains of text into the forum!

[RedAV8R]

Is there any way to control the thrust on any engines? I tried deleting Engine Thrust Controller (yes, i do realize it is a necessary mod), but the engines still don't throttle. It's kind of hard when you can only have 0% or 100% thrust, especially for landing, and it destroys rockets in FAR if they go too fast. Not even the tweakable throttle in the VAB does anything.

Any way I could change this?

This is in the FAQ.

Q: My engines don't throttle! How can I fix this?

A: You don't, it's working as designed. In real life, 99% of rocket engines don't throttle at all. A few throttle down to about 60-70% (like the SSME) to lower crew G forces on launch and to limit stress on the stack (especially at Max Q). Only a tiny, tiny few actually "deeply" throttle--basically just engines designed for landers. The Lunar Module Descent Engine is the largest deeply-throttling engine in RO right now, and will throttle down to about 12%.

As far as I can tell, I have neither of those kicking around. And I haven't consciously downloaded them, so I would be surprised if I did!

Trouble is, I can't find any reference to Real Engines in the RO stuff I have got.

Dummy question: I've got a log, where do you want me to put it? I'm guessing I won't be popular if I start copying mountains of text into the forum!

Well...lets do this...create a new install of KSP...add the required items only...then add RO...making sure you properly install each into the correct folder. As for the log, use drop box or some sharing site and post a link here.

Edited July 30, 2014 by RedAV8R

[Hodo]

@ Mr.Rocket, unfortunately most rockets in real life dont have throttle controls, they are fire and forget.

There are a few that are throttleable but they are generally pretty weak. My only suggestion is to add dead weight to your craft to bring down its TWR to a reasonable level, around 1.2-1.4:1. I had to do this, and actually use SRBs for most of my launch systems now. I use the procedural tanks SRB and change the thrust power and burn time to fit the cargo that it is pushing into orbit.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Rich

[Phredward]

You can also consult the spreadsheet of engines to find those that are throttleable. The only landing engine currently in the game is the lunar descent engine. If you'd like to try out the CECE (an in-development real-world engine), you can download it here, although I haven't integrated it or even tested it with the latested RO configs. It's based on the rl-10 engine, except with deep throttle abilities. If you're just looking to get into orbit, I recommend the nk-33/43, the rs-25d, and the merlin 1d for good throttle.

[ninjaweasel]

To all involved in this project and the supporting mods,

First off, fantastic job! After about 4 days (2 of re-installing everything several times, 2 of flying) I finally got my first probe into a stable orbit today. Totally wasn't anticipating the size of rocket required to get a 4t payload into orbit!

Second off, a couple of comments. These aren't specifically directed at the writers of RO, but it appears most of the supporting cast from the other mods frequent this post as well. Don't take these as criticisms or displeasure with your work. That this level of play is even possible with KSP is mind blowing.

- Is anybody doing contract mods specifically for RO/RSS yet? Starting from 0 cash and 0 tech makes progression very, very painful. There are few contracts available prior to achieving orbit, and what do exist don't pay well in relation to the cost of the larger rockets required compared to vanilla KSP. For example, testing a Thiokol 30XL at 20000m is worth $2400 - I'm pretty sure that I'd take a loss on that mission. Without tweaking my persistence file, achieving orbit would have been a long, long way away. Also in the category of contracts is that the sub-orbital contracts still list the default altitudes, which makes them impossible to complete since those altitudes are now in the atmosphere.

- Real Fuels comment: Unless I'm missing it somewhere, I don't see any in-game notes or descriptions that describe the tank types. It felt very trial-and-error to find a pressurized tank (at the tech level I gave myself, the procedural part was the only one I think I had).

- Neither Engineer nor Mechjeb seem to be very good at calculating TWR with some of the engine/fuel combinations. I've built some stuff that said in the VAB that it had a TWR of 1.5+, but on the pad it was below 1. With some engines, they also just give up on calculating TWR in flight and display ---. I'm assuming that this is because thrust is now variable based on a number of factors (not all of which I fully understand just yet) vice throttle being the only variable in vanilla. What does engineer base it's numbers on, and for first stage engines/boosters which thrust numbers should I be using? If I can just figure out how to compensate roughly in my head, that'll be close enough for government work!

All in all, awesome work and I'm very glad I took the time to try it out!

[RedAV8R]

You can also consult the spreadsheet of engines to find those that are throttleable. The only landing engine currently in the game is the lunar descent engine. If you'd like to try out the CECE (an in-development real-world engine), you can download it here, although I haven't integrated it or even tested it with the latested RO configs. It's based on the rl-10 engine, except with deep throttle abilities. If you're just looking to get into orbit, I recommend the nk-33/43, the rs-25d, and the merlin 1d for good throttle.

Your CECE is still on my list:) Actually...at a point I can add it now. It'll be one of the options for the single RL-10. Hope to make another release later tonight.

To all involved in this project and the supporting mods,

First off, fantastic job! After about 4 days (2 of re-installing everything several times, 2 of flying) I finally got my first probe into a stable orbit today. Totally wasn't anticipating the size of rocket required to get a 4t payload into orbit!

Second off, a couple of comments. These aren't specifically directed at the writers of RO, but it appears most of the supporting cast from the other mods frequent this post as well. Don't take these as criticisms or displeasure with your work. That this level of play is even possible with KSP is mind blowing.

- Is anybody doing contract mods specifically for RO/RSS yet? Starting from 0 cash and 0 tech makes progression very, very painful. There are few contracts available prior to achieving orbit, and what do exist don't pay well in relation to the cost of the larger rockets required compared to vanilla KSP. For example, testing a Thiokol 30XL at 20000m is worth $2400 - I'm pretty sure that I'd take a loss on that mission. Without tweaking my persistence file, achieving orbit would have been a long, long way away. Also in the category of contracts is that the sub-orbital contracts still list the default altitudes, which makes them impossible to complete since those altitudes are now in the atmosphere.

- Real Fuels comment: Unless I'm missing it somewhere, I don't see any in-game notes or descriptions that describe the tank types. It felt very trial-and-error to find a pressurized tank (at the tech level I gave myself, the procedural part was the only one I think I had).

- Neither Engineer nor Mechjeb seem to be very good at calculating TWR with some of the engine/fuel combinations. I've built some stuff that said in the VAB that it had a TWR of 1.5+, but on the pad it was below 1. With some engines, they also just give up on calculating TWR in flight and display ---. I'm assuming that this is because thrust is now variable based on a number of factors (not all of which I fully understand just yet) vice throttle being the only variable in vanilla. What does engineer base it's numbers on, and for first stage engines/boosters which thrust numbers should I be using? If I can just figure out how to compensate roughly in my head, that'll be close enough for government work!

All in all, awesome work and I'm very glad I took the time to try it out!

Ninja, GREAT, that first RSS/RO successful launch will make a persons day.

At this time RO is dedicated to just getting things running the way they should and is really only supported via sandbox mode. In the future, career support will be added but that is quite literally the last thing on my list, and anything new will generally be added before it. It will be a massive project in itself. I'm personally not looking forward to that, so maybe somebody else would like to join the team and start on it.

RealFuels...This should be brought up to NK (I'll send him a note to make sure) to add at least a little info on the RealFuels OP/Readme...Short answer (Service Module) is the type you want. And honestly a lot of parts that is actually not configurable. Most are set to Default I think. For the best info...in the RealFuels folder, under Parts, and Stretchy, open those and read the descriptions, should give you a slightly better idea.

MJ/Engineer...This is actually part of RealFuels, per the OP..."*Engine/RCS thrust scales with Isp, just like in real life." Before thrust was always the same...and fuel flow changed as Isp changed (SL vs Vac)...now realistically thrust is now different between MSL and Vac. FWIW, MJ has a SLT (Sea Level Thrust) option which will give you, well the TWR at SeaLevel. I think that's what you are looking for. I'm not sure with Engineer as I don't use that.

Thank you, and I hope my response helps you out.