[0.25] Realism Overhaul w/ RedAV8R [Terminated]

[Agathorn]

RO includes a tweak to the old 2.x PFairing mass; it may be that the syntax changed for 3.x; I'll check. But the deeper problem is that interstages / fairing bases have a cube-of-radius mass, not any lesser power, which means that mass will scale with the cube of the radius. So while a 5m diameter (2.5m radius) interstage might mass 6.25t, a 10m diameter one would mass 25t.

Note that the 12 tons that's been bandied about isn't totally out of line, however; the N-1 interstage between the first and second stages massed 13 tons!

Also, what is this about 5m limits? I thought I added a patch to RO to remove that limit. I'll check.

What file is modifying the PF mass? Because I didn't see any mass changes unless I just missed them. Which is possible being as this was like 15 minutes after i'd woken up.

As for 5m limits, pretty much all the SCALETYPE configs that use stack values rather than free, have a 5m upper limit.

[Hattivat]

RO includes a tweak to the old 2.x PFairing mass; it may be that the syntax changed for 3.x; I'll check. But the deeper problem is that interstages / fairing bases have a cube-of-radius mass, not any lesser power, which means that mass will scale with the cube of the radius. So while a 5m diameter (2.5m radius) interstage might mass 6.25t, a 10m diameter one would mass 25t.

Thanks, that explains why it seems to rise exponentially.

Note that the 12 tons that's been bandied about isn't totally out of line, however; the N-1 interstage between the first and second stages massed 13 tons!

That's interesting, I always thought that the reason it was hollow was to make it lighter than the Saturn V's interstages. It's fascinating to hear that it was still heavier nonetheless.

[RedAV8R]

It appears that TAC Life Support amounts for Procedural Parts's life support tank, along with all the TAC parts, don't have correctly-balanced values since the switch away from 1 unit == 1 day of resources.

Command pods and lander cans (at least the ones I've looked at, including ALCOR) are in good shape, so there's that.

I'll take a look at that and see what we can do.

Good catch jrandom. File added which correctly changes TACLS resources in a PP LS tank.

[RedAV8R]

It appears that TAC Life Support amounts for Procedural Parts's life support tank, along with all the TAC parts, don't have correctly-balanced values since the switch away from 1 unit == 1 day of resources.

Command pods and lander cans (at least the ones I've looked at, including ALCOR) are in good shape, so there's that.

I'll take a look at that and see what we can do.

I spoke too soon. While ALCOR has correct values, pods like the Mk1-2 still have the old unit system in place.

Alright, yet another good catch. Updated squad pods for life support with more balanced values, usually 1-2 days worth of supplies.

[RedAV8R]

If I may make a suggestion- NovaPunch now has a large new update, several new engines, and the pods have been updated. Perhaps the config for it could be updated? (if it is, it doesn't work for me)

EDIT: Also, if you haven't seen, Bobcat has released a new version of HOME. That would be cool to see for RO, even if it doesn't have a real world analogue.

We know of the NP update that was released 3 weeks ago. As time permits we will be working on it. At this time there are no plans to change anything with crewed pods, that may change later on.

[RedAV8R]

I'm pretty sure that the merlin 1D has more than two ignitions. It should have at least four (static fire, launch, turnaround burn, landing) and I think that they can be ignited a lot more often than that

While I'm sure they refill the TEA/TEB after the static fire, I've updated the number to 4...that'll give launch, return/re-entry burn, and landing burn, with a spare in case something happens.

[jrandom]

Alright, yet another good catch. Updated squad pods for life support with more balanced values, usually 1-2 days worth of supplies.

Yay! Is this available as a separate download, or is it fully included in RO now? (eg. if I grab the latest RO, will it have these changes?)

[RedAV8R]

Yay! Is this available as a separate download, or is it fully included in RO now? (eg. if I grab the latest RO, will it have these changes?)

Once I work through some more updates including Agathorns updates I'll release Alpha 3 later tonight I hope. Nothing new is up on github yet.

[jrandom]

Once I work through some more updates including Agathorns updates I'll release Alpha 3 later tonight I hope. Nothing new is up on github yet.

No worries. I'm in the middle of building/flying a mission so I won't be able to update RO until that's finished anyways.

[NathanKell]

Yeah, them's good catches. When I checked the RO pod patches, I didn't see any LS patches in there, and I didn't connect that the reason for that was that ECLSS (and TACLS) add it themselves...and that by changing usage rates, the provided quantity would be wrong.

Hattivat: nope, that's because the Russians, rather than providing ullage motors to their stages, hot-stage them. That means literally lighting the next stage before the previous one burns out and is decoupled. Hence the mesh, so the exhaust can escape.

Note that the Titan I and II (maybe later too?) did this too: you can see the gaps here in the interstage

[physicsnerd]

We know of the NP update that was released 3 weeks ago. As time permits we will be working on it. At this time there are no plans to change anything with crewed pods, that may change later on.

Cool. I was aware that there were no adaptations for the pods, but it'd be cool to have some of the new engines and boosters in RO.

[Agathorn]

I might have to admit defeat on adding TweakScale to the AIES tanks. I don't know why but I can't get it to work, even though I did it exactly like the KW tanks which do work. Looking at the configs using the debug dialog, shows that the TweakScale configs are applied to the AIES tanks, but right clicking doesn't give the option.

I've tried this, which is how it is in KW tanks:

@PART[fuelTanklunderl]:FOR[RealismOverhaul] // AIES Lunder-L Fuel Tank
{
	%RSSROConfig = true
	@MODULE[TweakScale]
	{
		@type = RealismOverhaulStackHollow
	}
}

And when that didn't work I even tried being very explicit (I though maybe the load order was making it so that the TWEAKSCALE config wasn't available yet)

@PART[fuelTank7k]:FOR[RealismOverhaul] // AIES K7 Fuel Tank
{
	%RSSROConfig = true
	!MODULE[TweakScale] {}
	MODULE[TweakScale]
	{
		freeScale = false
		scaleFactors = 0.5, 0.625, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.75, 4.0, 5.0
		scaleNames = 0.5m, 0.625m, 1.0m, 1.25m, 1.5m, 2.0m, 2.5m, 3.0m, 3.75m, 4.0m, 5.0m
		massFactors = 0.0, 1.0, 0.0
		defaultScale = 1.25
	}
}

But that didn't work either.

[RedAV8R]

I might have to admit defeat on adding TweakScale to the AIES tanks. I don't know why but I can't get it to work, even though I did it exactly like the KW tanks which do work. Looking at the configs using the debug dialog, shows that the TweakScale configs are applied to the AIES tanks, but right clicking doesn't give the option.

I've tried this, which is how it is in KW tanks:

@PART[fuelTanklunderl]:FOR[RealismOverhaul] // AIES Lunder-L Fuel Tank
{
	%RSSROConfig = true
	@MODULE[TweakScale]
	{
		@type = RealismOverhaulStackHollow
	}
}

And when that didn't work I even tried being very explicit (I though maybe the load order was making it so that the TWEAKSCALE config wasn't available yet)

@PART[fuelTank7k]:FOR[RealismOverhaul] // AIES K7 Fuel Tank
{
	%RSSROConfig = true
	!MODULE[TweakScale] {}
	MODULE[TweakScale]
	{
		freeScale = false
		scaleFactors = 0.5, 0.625, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.75, 4.0, 5.0
		scaleNames = 0.5m, 0.625m, 1.0m, 1.25m, 1.5m, 2.0m, 2.5m, 3.0m, 3.75m, 4.0m, 5.0m
		massFactors = 0.0, 1.0, 0.0
		defaultScale = 1.25
	}
}

But that didn't work either.

With a basic install, AIES tanks do NOT have TweakScale 'installed', so you'll need to add it, not modify it. Look for guidance with the actual TweakScale configs in that folder.

[RedAV8R]

Yeah, them's good catches. When I checked the RO pod patches, I didn't see any LS patches in there, and I didn't connect that the reason for that was that ECLSS (and TACLS) add it themselves...and that by changing usage rates, the provided quantity would be wrong.

Hattivat: nope, that's because the Russians, rather than providing ullage motors to their stages, hot-stage them. That means literally lighting the next stage before the previous one burns out and is decoupled. Hence the mesh, so the exhaust can escape.

Note that the Titan I and II (maybe later too?) did this too: you can see the gaps here in the interstage

http://www.titan-ii.com/files/assembled.gif

Not sure of Titan I, but Titan II didn't hot stage quite in the sense that the Russians do, it was more a simultaneous ignition and separation. The Russians on the other hand start the engines while still hanging on, and don't release until computers sense full thrust, THEN it finally lets go.

[physicsnerd]

Okay, so I think I've caught a config problem. I noticed my Saturn V from FASA wasn't getting fuel to the first stage, so I went back and looked at the thrust structure for the S-IC stage and noticed that it lacked a fuel tank. Based on the FASA config files, it looks like it should have a fuel tank, but the RO config file for the Saturn doesn't have a modular fuel tanks module written in. Could someone confirm this?

[Agathorn]

With a basic install, AIES tanks do NOT have TweakScale 'installed', so you'll need to add it, not modify it. Look for guidance with the actual TweakScale configs in that folder.

I thought that was what I was doing in the second example, but now I think I see what I was doing wrong. Let me go try it.

EDIT: Yep I see what I was doing wrong. Grr. Such a simple mistake. For some reason I thought MODULE[TweakScale] was just a SHORTCUT for MODULE{ name = TweakScale }, when in fact it isn't. Its working now.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Agathorn

[RedAV8R]

Okay, so I think I've caught a config problem. I noticed my Saturn V from FASA wasn't getting fuel to the first stage, so I went back and looked at the thrust structure for the S-IC stage and noticed that it lacked a fuel tank. Based on the FASA config files, it looks like it should have a fuel tank, but the RO config file for the Saturn doesn't have a modular fuel tanks module written in. Could someone confirm this?

With FASA and RO, if you want to build the Saturn V, don't use the thrust structure, there is a new part, combining the two which you should use.

[physicsnerd]

With FASA and RO, if you want to build the Saturn V, don't use the thrust structure, there is a new part, combining the two which you should use.

Oh, okay. I found it. Thanks. Works now. Do I actually need the thrust section, then, or can I delete it?

[RedAV8R]

No release yet, but I have updated TweakScale scaling to now works up through 10m.

physicsnerd: You can, however we are leaving it for those who wish to build something with it.

[Reign Of Magic]

Glad you all moved to the new thread! Can't wait to try out this out when the weekend rolls along.

Quick question, the Future Power Packs (Near Future Technologies thread). Are all of those RSS/RO Enabled or just the electrical systems? As an aside looks like this will take the place of KSP Interstellar in my next install!

Also I saw that you guys support: PorkWorks Inflatable Habs, is there plans to implement a more involved and ultimately self sustaining colonization mod such as MKS?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Reign Of Magic

[RedAV8R]

Glad you all moved to the new thread! Can't wait to try out this out when the weekend rolls along.

Quick question, the Future Power Packs (Near Future Technologies thread). Are all of those RSS/RO Enabled or just the electrical systems? As an aside looks like this will take the place of KSP Interstellar in my next install!

Also I saw that you guys support: PorkWorks Inflatable Habs, is there plans to implement a more involved and ultimately self sustaining colonization mod such as MKS?

I will actually be redoing what is in the NFPP...I honestly haven't looked much at them, we'll enable support for what we can. I just got done with the PorkWorks Inflatables rework, as time goes by we'll enable support for more futuristic ideas, even KSPI, but we need to hit the basics and past/present stuff first.

[tmikesecrist3]

kspi, is that intersteller? I thought that was already supported at least partly... or is that only with RPL?

[RedAV8R]

kspi, is that intersteller? I thought that was already supported at least partly... or is that only with RPL?

Yes...supported...mmm...let me look...nope.

[tmikesecrist3]

ok I stand corrected

[RedAV8R]

Update Time!

*FusTek Complete (current with X0.04-4 DEV BUILD)

*Fix ProceduralParts LifeSupport Tank to 1U=1L standard

*Added TweakScale support to 10m for parts that use it

*Removed TweakScale with DRE (values not appropriate)

*Completed ASET ALCOR pod update

*Completed PorkWorks HabitatPack update

*Completed Nothke Service Compartment update - Added TweakScale

*NP2/KW/AIES RealEngine Updates

*Added TweakScale support to AIES Fuel Tanks

Download at the OP!