Where do you Kethane?

[katateochi]

I'm starting to get back into using kethane more (rather than just having it as something to hunt for), and I wanted to ask you guys a couple questions about how you mine it.

- Which planets do you use for full-on mining operations?

- Where do you do the conversion of Kethane into fuels, on the ground or in orbit? This is the question I'm most interested in, what is the most efficient way to do it?

- Does anyone mine Kerbin?

Doesn't sound too sensible at first, but I've been wondering about using a mining SSTO that could mine and shuttle kethane to LKO. I've built a prototype that can lift a full TL40 kethane tank to orbit, but I'm not sure how efficient it will be.

[TrooperCooper]

I think to make it usefull you ideally have a Kethane operation going on Minmus. It offers a good supply of the ressource and by converting it into rocket fuel there, you can have a refuelling station within its orbit that allows you to leave Kerbin for interplanetary travel with nearly full tanks (or much smaller ones heh), since the home planets gravitational force out there is much weaker.

You basically have most of the exit-burn done already when you are at Minmus. So take off from Kerbin with your interplanetary ship, head to Minmus to dock with your refuelling station and then do a much smaller exit-burn to Moho or wherever you want to go. Should take much less dV.

Basically the same why IRL the Moon is considered as a potential stepping stone for a Mars mission.

[montyben101]

I have literally just got kethane to aid my Munar space station and refuel my shuttle and lander (my shuttle IS a space shuttle from CSS XD(don't ask how i got it there))

[magnemoe]

Minmus is perfect because of the low gravity, I prefer to convert most to fuel just keep one medium tank I can either convert to fuel or monoprop depending on use.

I also send the miner back to LKO to fuel up, one smart idea is that if you have large core stages it can be smart to use some of them as fuel depots if you put docking ports on them.

Works better if you add probe core, reaction wheel, some small solar cell and batteries an large but empty monoprop tank is also smart.

Another option is to make some dedicated transfer crafts, large tanks and one or two LV-N, you don't need much trust as you will take it empty back and don't need much to get back to LKO.

Ike, Gilly and Pol is local resources, this is perhaps even more valuable as a jool 5 trip is much easier if you can tank up first.

[katateochi]

So I wandered off and did some maths (I think) and this is what I've concluded: It's more complicated than simply one or the other.

If you use the small converter then it is very slightly more effective to produce oxidizer in space than on the ground, but for the other 3 fuels (liquid, mono, and xenon) its more effective on the ground. In the case of mono it makes quite a difference, 2tons of kethane produces 0.6tons of mono, but with liquid and oxidizer it's fairly marginal, 2tons K makes, 1.94 liquid or 2.02 oxidizer. but if you convert 2tons of K into liquid and oxidizer (using the 45/55% mixture) you end up with 1.98tons of bi-propellent. So overall it's slightly more efficient to convert on the ground (unless you're just producing oxidizer).

BUT....the large converter has different rates of conversion. With the large converter it is slight more effective to produce liquid fuel in space, but all the others on the ground. 2 tons of K will produce 2.016 tons of (45/55) bi-propellent so its almost inconsequentially more effective to convert bi-propellent in space and mono and xenon on the ground.

However, the large converter is not necessarily more efficient for all fuels. It is more efficient for liquid fuel, it will convert 1000 kethane into 412 liquid where as the small converter will produce 388. But it is not as good at producing oxidizer, 1000 kethane becomes 396 oxidizer but the small converter can produce 404 oxidizer. For monoprop the large converter is much better, producing 425.5 from 1000 kethane whereas the small converter will only produce 150. But the smaller one wins again on xenon gas production (1000 kethane -> 5000 with the large, 8000 with the small).

What it looks like the best thing to do is produce bi-propellent in space as it's very slightly heavier than the kethane needed to produce it, but use a large converter for the liquid and a small converter for the oxidizer. And ideally produce the other two fuels on the ground, using the large for mono and the small for xenon, but then again, landing a large converter just to produce monoprop doesn't really justify it, you'd have to produce a lot of monoprop before the saving in weight paid for the cost of landing 2 tons of converter!

[magnemoe]

So I wandered off and did some maths (I think) and this is what I've concluded: It's more complicated than simply one or the other.

If you use the small converter then it is very slightly more effective to produce oxidizer in space than on the ground, but for the other 3 fuels (liquid, mono, and xenon) its more effective on the ground. In the case of mono it makes quite a difference, 2tons of kethane produces 0.6tons of mono, but with liquid and oxidizer it's fairly marginal, 2tons K makes, 1.94 liquid or 2.02 oxidizer. but if you convert 2tons of K into liquid and oxidizer (using the 45/55% mixture) you end up with 1.98tons of bi-propellent. So overall it's slightly more efficient to convert on the ground (unless you're just producing oxidizer).

BUT....the large converter has different rates of conversion. With the large converter it is slight more effective to produce liquid fuel in space, but all the others on the ground. 2 tons of K will produce 2.016 tons of (45/55) bi-propellent so its almost inconsequentially more effective to convert bi-propellent in space and mono and xenon on the ground.

However, the large converter is not necessarily more efficient for all fuels. It is more efficient for liquid fuel, it will convert 1000 kethane into 412 liquid where as the small converter will produce 388. But it is not as good at producing oxidizer, 1000 kethane becomes 396 oxidizer but the small converter can produce 404 oxidizer. For monoprop the large converter is much better, producing 425.5 from 1000 kethane whereas the small converter will only produce 150. But the smaller one wins again on xenon gas production (1000 kethane -> 5000 with the large, 8000 with the small).

What it looks like the best thing to do is produce bi-propellent in space as it's very slightly heavier than the kethane needed to produce it, but use a large converter for the liquid and a small converter for the oxidizer. And ideally produce the other two fuels on the ground, using the large for mono and the small for xenon, but then again, landing a large converter just to produce monoprop doesn't really justify it, you'd have to produce a lot of monoprop before the saving in weight paid for the cost of landing 2 tons of converter!

Looks like you are right, wonder if this is a bug.

main benefit with converting while mining is that the process takes time so its smart to do while mining, you would want an converter on the miner anyway to crack fuel to get back.

You don't want to do it in 80 km orbit around Kerbin and 50x warp and the huge mothership you are filling drags framerate down.

Again keep some for optional monopropelant use as your monoprop use is not similar to your fuel use

[SkyRender]

I tend to set up Kethane operations on Minmus and the Mun, with the former being the primary supplier and the latter being the emergency supplier. The lowest-gravity body in a given system is the prime target for any sort of Kethane operation, as you'll spend far less fuel ferrying to and from that body to any other body than trying to lug up the fuel from the higher-gravity bodies. As such, Gilly, Ike, Bop, and Pol all get Kethane mining treatment too. For Moho, it generally makes the most sense to just ferry fuel overland to where you landed than it does to establish a surface-to-orbit refueling cycle.

[Darthzeus]

If you're using extraplanetary launchpads as well, gilly or minmus are great launch loacales. However, if you're just doing a refueling outpost, mun is easier to flyby. For on ground or in air, if you're just refueling, I'd suggest dropping a lander and hauling fuel back up. Where to do the conversions dosn't matter, except that it takes electric charge, so depends on how you're making power.

No, nobody mines kerbin. Except cupcake, but that was just to show off.

[JDCollie]

I generally set up Kethane mining bases on Moons, such as the Mun, Gilly, Ike, etc. with refueling stations in orbit which allows me to refuel vehicles passing by the relevant planetary bodies. I'll generally also set up local refueling on Duna and such, but that is only for landed vehicles.

No, nobody mines kerbin. Except cupcake, but that was just to show off.

I'm pretty sure everything Cupcake does is just to show off. Then again, they do it so well, it's hard to hold it against them.

Edited July 8, 2014 by JDCollie

[Brofessional]

I drop a drilling rig on Minmus, then use a second bare-bones vehicle to ferry the fuel directly to the ship waiting in orbit. Typically if I'm refueling before leaving Kerbin's system it's a large mothership, so it's easier to dock the ferry to the mothership than to try docking a big mothership to a fuel station.

Otherwise any refueling is usually mission-specific, from whatever is the easiest body to get it from in the system I'm in.

[Franklin]

Tiny moons! Places that cost no amount of dV to visit and leave. Minmus makes a great spot, since everyone starts there, and it's almost free to visit. Pol around Jool for the same reason, and typically you spend a lot of time in that system. Ike around Duna makes for a good mid-trip gas station. Those are my three typical pit stops.

A gas station on Eve is only good in getting you off Eve. It's useless otherwise. Tiny moons.

[katateochi]

Looks like you are right, wonder if this is a bug. snip*

I kinda like it the way it is. It's not initially obvious and its something else to scratch your head and worry about

Your point about saving time mining and converting together is a good one thou.

*snip For Moho, it generally makes the most sense to just ferry fuel overland to where you landed than it does to establish a surface-to-orbit refueling cycle.

I got stuck at Moho when I did my grand tour, it was the first time I'd been and I massively underestimated what it would take to get into orbit, burnt nearly everything to orbit and then spent ages shuttling fuel up from the surface. It was like carrying it up in tea cups! Not doing that again!

*snip

No, nobody mines kerbin. Except cupcake, but that was just to show off.

I'm seriously considering doing it! I'm going to need raw kethane in LKO to power an experimental kethane powered station.

I've got an SSTO with a drill and small converter that can carry a full 8000 unit kethane tank up to LKO. Apart from life support demands it could in theory just keep mining and shuttling fuel without ever needing to return to KSC. I need to put a tanker in orbit (tonight's mission) and then I can test it out properly.

[SciMan]

I usually end up peppering Minmus with Kethane mining sites, starting at the equator and working towards the poles. Once one goes dry, I leave it there and just transfer the crew to the next one. Then again, I haven't had one go dry yet because I'm drawing from so many at once. Once I clear the tech tree I usually start playing space BP. "Drill baby drill", indeed.

Bonus points for the fact that my corporate mining outposts double as habitats. Also there's the fact those bases usually have at least some trace of fuel, RCS, or Kethane left in the tanks even after the final tanker leaves, good for contingency reserves, and Minmus has low gravity so it's a great place to assemble a deep space rescue mission. Not that I ever need to do deep space rescue missions, I've never gone out of Kerbin's SOI in 0.23.5.

[Holyvision]

I Kethane at 'yo Momma's house.

Also, Minmus.

[JDCollie]

[magnemoe]

I kinda like it the way it is. It's not initially obvious and its something else to scratch your head and worry about

Your point about saving time mining and converting together is a good one thou.

I got stuck at Moho when I did my grand tour, it was the first time I'd been and I massively underestimated what it would take to get into orbit, burnt nearly everything to orbit and then spent ages shuttling fuel up from the surface. It was like carrying it up in tea cups! Not doing that again!

Yes, Moho is much like Duna and Val, I remember doing Moho mining then I did a ketane suported grand tour back in 0.18.

Used this ship

Miner was used as fuel tank for mothership, however I had to do multiple trips to fill up the motherships tank who held far less fuel than the lander, I also needed fuel to land again.

The miner was actually SSTO on Kerbin, it could however not land, was able to do an Tylo landing as I landed on a kethane deposit and filled up before leaving.

Most of my kethane miners follow the same template as this too.

[Kerba Fett]

Usually I do kethane mining on Minmus, but I've got a miner at my Mun base as well. It's handy for surface to surface trips or fueling ships from kerbin for their trip back.

I can't imagine anyone mining for kethane on Kerbin. You can bring kethane or fuel from minmus for a lot less dV than bringing it up from the surface of kerbin.

[magnemoe]

Usually I do kethane mining on Minmus, but I've got a miner at my Mun base as well. It's handy for surface to surface trips or fueling ships from kerbin for their trip back.

I can't imagine anyone mining for kethane on Kerbin. You can bring kethane or fuel from minmus for a lot less dV than bringing it up from the surface of kerbin.

Kerbin mining is something you do if you set up another base on Kerbin, same as an laythe base with a ketane deposit would be far easier to operate from.

[Tortoise]

Duna, on the ground. For future colonization.

[Duke23]

I haven't actually *done* much with Kethane yet but I have plans in the works (read: in the back of my mind that will someday happen) for refueling outposts on Duna and Laythe to support colonization and take some of the burden off my transfer ships of refueling the landers. I've scanned Kerbin and Duna and done a small amount of mining on Kerbin just to get the hang of what exactly I'm doing.

[rabidninjawombat]

Minmus is where i do my mining, to start.

I've started a Mining operation there, with a ore drilling setup on the way to building rockets there via Extraplantary launchpads, With its low gravity its an ideal starting point for future expansion into the solar system.

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[Cashen]

Kethane features pretty prominently in my mission reports thread (link in signature) and I've only mined seriously from Minmus and Pol so far.

[smart013]

On a sidenote: i really recommend the scansat 7 dev version for scanning kethane. Faster, better overview and the vessel hasnt to be active while scanning. And its pretty awesome