Active SETI.

[Seshins]

Greeting fellow like minded people.

First off - i have no informal education in any science discipline, i merely read books, watch documentarys and ponder. I have had a life long fascination with the stars and space and what the future may bring for humanity.

Now it seems that in the last few years the debate for Active SETI has started to revive somewhat, and it poses some interesting questions. For those of you who arent aware of what it is, Passive SETI aka what we do now, involves just listening to signals that could indicate techonology or activity of another civilization, but thats it, LISTENING.

Active SETI involves sending focused carrier signals encoded with information or patterns, at high energys toward particular star systems/exo planets. This has become more on topic again since the amount of confirmed exo planets is rising, making the possibilty for life to exist as we know it, more likley.

The part of the debate im talking about is what is in humanity's best interests, should we just listen, wait and watch, or start announcing our presence. Now, any decision would require the consensus of humanity in priniciple, but how that would be acheieved is not what im trying to get at in this post.

My question is - Who is For, Against, couldnt care for Active SETI to resume? My PERSONAL preference is to stay quiet, and listen, but there are interesting arguments to both sides.

[magnemoe]

Well the main argument against sending is that the chance of someone intercept is low.

Not only must the planet have an technological civilization but it would also have to have an radio telescope pointed at us and listen to the frequency we send with then we send.

The first is unlikely, the second is less probably. In short the chances for someone picking it up is small, and yes its also the possibility that they are hostile, yes this is probably even less likely.

[Aethon]

Look we've been a technological society for say 300 years, which doesn't even register, cosmically speaking. Any one we meet out there will be vastly beyond our level of development, possibly by billions of years.

Active SETI is not science, but an attempt to provoke a reaction from an alien society whose abilities and motives are unknown to us- a reaction that will have serious consequences for all of humanity.

It is not wise to shout into the jungle.

[Awaras]

http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html

[The Silent Majority]

Nope, for one simple reason, we are primitive, as any aliens with the technology to reach us are so far ahead that we wouldn't stand a chance.

If the aliens are similar enough to us, they will come and conquer us, and there is nothing, at this point, that we can do.

On the other hand, aliens are, well, aliens, we probably won't understand their motives, or them at all.

So, nope, for our own survival.

If we can't understand them, we can't fight them, if we can't fight, we can't survive.

I hope as much as any other that these life forms would be peaceful, or at least so different that nothing would provoke either species, but we cannot take the risk, I for one, would rather be reasonably spread out that one event could not wipe us out before we initiate contact.

[Seret]

If the aliens are similar enough to us, they will come and conquer us

I don't think that follows. What would they gain by doing so? Resources? If the resources of Earth were within an economically exploitable distance from them and they needed them enough they'd come and get them whether we were here or not. And if we're not a threat militarily then there's no reason for them to strike pre-emptively.

I'm pretty sceptical that military expeditions at interstellar distances would be at all feasible. You can't fight at that kind of range even with the most optimistic wondertech.

[78stonewobble]

I don't think that follows. What would they gain by doing so? Resources? If the resources of Earth were within an economically exploitable distance from them and they needed them enough they'd come and get them whether we were here or not. And if we're not a threat militarily then there's no reason for them to strike pre-emptively.

I'm pretty sceptical that military expeditions at interstellar distances would be at all feasible. You can't fight at that kind of range even with the most optimistic wondertech.

The crusades weren't the most logical thing either, but...

But I tend to agree on the logic of ressources and technical difficulties.

While us humans certainly have the capacity for violence and has demonstrated it throughout the ages, I'd wager than 90 plus percent of human interaction is actually quite peacefull. For every person doing the act of killing someone else, countless people spend countless manhours shaking hands, teamworking, sleeping together (well minutes here in some cases), walking dogs, farming, tending gardens, building thingamobobs and what not in peacefull coorporation.

[The Fleet Master]

Humans are curious creatures, We hate each other but love to explore. Our desire to kill each other has taken over our urge to explore. I think this would not only benefit scientists but Humanity as a whole and maybe possibly unite us and remind us that we're all the same, There are other beings out there, We just need to find them.

[Nibb31]

There are other beings out there, We just need to find them.

Or maybe we don't.

[Seret]

While us humans certainly have the capacity for violence and has demonstrated it throughout the ages, I'd wager than 90 plus percent of human interaction is actually quite peacefull.

The general assumption amongst SETI folk is that any civilisation that can advance to the point of communication at interstellar distances must have a greater capacity to create than destroy. Admittedly our sample size for civilisations is small so we can't be certain.

[magnemoe]

The crusades weren't the most logical thing either, but...

But I tend to agree on the logic of ressources and technical difficulties.

While us humans certainly have the capacity for violence and has demonstrated it throughout the ages, I'd wager than 90 plus percent of human interaction is actually quite peacefull. For every person doing the act of killing someone else, countless people spend countless manhours shaking hands, teamworking, sleeping together (well minutes here in some cases), walking dogs, farming, tending gardens, building thingamobobs and what not in peacefull coorporation.

Humans are remarkable peaceful compared to most animals it makes sense to compare us too.

Yes some tribes has been very violent in that violence has been the most common cause of death for males. Still this is probably more a result of tactic and good weapons than constant violence (bows and arrows are very lethal compared to animals natural weapons)

We are very good at large scale organization including war.

[78stonewobble]

I just think our aggression has been somewhat exaggerated, when it comes to these kinds of questions.

Yes, we've been violent, sometimes very violent and as some said here, quite good at it. So violent in fact, that I think it's basic human nature (the capacity for it, not necessarily to do it).

However, and this is where the exaggeration part comes in, we're even better at coexisting peacefully and/or surviving. The fact is that our only example of intelligence hasn't wiped itself out yet and is actually thriving.

I just don't think you can use human civilisation as an example of whether an alien civilisation would be either violent or peacefull. At most we can say there is potential for both.

My personal wager? I think they'll be somewhat like us in this regard. I don't believe you can achieve dominant species status without either violence or the capacity for working peacefully together, dependent on circumstances and I don't think you can achieve a high technological level without the ability to reason. So I'm cautiously optimistic regarding the nature of alien contact (not of the chances of making it in the first place though).

...

More on topic... I think active seti will be a waste of time, money and energy, not because I'm fearfull. I'd just much rather invest in bigger and better telescopes for astronomy, where passive seti could perhaps piggyback.

[SargeRho]

I'd rather we wait until we have some really, really giant guns, in case aliens aren't all that friendly. Battle:LA anyone?

[Tommygun]

I'd rather we wait until we have some really, really giant guns, in case aliens aren't all that friendly. Battle:LA anyone?

I fear it would be more like spraying for ants to them.

[Sky_walker]

I don't think that follows. What would they gain by doing so? Resources?

Saving life on a planet.

Assuming that war that follows will be only targeted at humans with little to no collateral damage to the environment.

Life in the void universe is very precious thing, and humans prove over and over again not to give a s*** about it. Viewed objectively: we're basically a vermin that slowly consumes a planet. Killing off good 95% of human race would be highly advised from a perspective of alien spices. This would ensure long-term survival for a natural environment, while at the same time assure that there's enough humans to keep genetically healthy population.

However, and this is where the exaggeration part comes in, we're even better at coexisting peacefully and/or surviving.

You think so? Let's take a look at a very distant history. Once upon a time we did encounter another intelligent spices here on our planet - Neandertals and lead to their extinction...

...but ok, let's take a look little bit closer: North and South America during Colonial era, how we basically killed vast majority of the population on two continents and now hold survivals in Indian Reservations.

Or would you want to get even closer than that? Superstitions and racism lead to one of the greatest disasters in 20th century: Holocaust.

And that's what we've done to our own spices. If any alien spices would ever found out about that - they'd be very inclined to wipe us out just for their own safety (as over time of co-existence we'd learn more about them eventually reaching a point where we'd become capable of inflicting significant causalities).

The fact is that our only example of intelligence hasn't wiped itself out yet and is actually thriving.

It's not intelligence. It's fear. An invention of Mutually Assured Destruction is the only reason why we're still talking here now.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Idobox]

I agree with skywalker,

We are a greedy species that is always expanding and destroying a lot of what is in our path. Letting us grow until we can colonize exoplanets would be a risk some alien species might not want to take.

There is also the Fermi Paradox. There should be plenty of alien civilizations, but we don't see them. A possible explanation is that something is actively destroying them, and that only the discreet ones survive.

Broadcasting our existence and position, hoping for alien intelligence with capacities far beyond ours to contact us is a huge risk.

[rtxoff]

IMO, i don't think that any aliens would stand a chance at conquering earth. We are the masters of this world. We have thousands of years of experience in warfare on this planet. While the various SciFi movies are amusing they do not resemble reality. Aliens would be limited to the laws of physics like we are. And the fight would be on our territory which we know best. Also i highly doubt that if there is ET out there any of them will have the resources to start an invasion on a planet that is that far away. Even if they had it would be an requirement for them to have FTL technology (if it is even possible to have). I guess by the time an planet reaches that tech level, war would not matter anymore for them. In any way we don't have to fear anything. The worst but most unlikely case that could happen is that we get exterminated. I would call that just when i recall what humankind already destroyed on this planet. The more probable scenario would be that ET gets his butt kicked. I for my part am prepared to squash some bugs in the case they come to play wargames.

[SargeRho]

You don't need FTL to invade another planet...just a pretty well-developed space industry.

And it doesn't matter if you're the aliens from B:LA, or the Covenant, a nuke or really fast projectile to the face is going to damage your ship.

[Awaras]

IMO, i don't think that any aliens would stand a chance at conquering earth. We are the masters of this world. We have thousands of years of experience in warfare on this planet. While the various SciFi movies are amusing they do not resemble reality. Aliens would be limited to the laws of physics like we are. And the fight would be on our territory which we know best. Also i highly doubt that if there is ET out there any of them will have the resources to start an invasion on a planet that is that far away. Even if they had it would be an requirement for them to have FTL technology (if it is even possible to have). I guess by the time an planet reaches that tech level, war would not matter anymore for them. In any way we don't have to fear anything. The worst but most unlikely case that could happen is that we get exterminated. I would call that just when i recall what humankind already destroyed on this planet. The more probable scenario would be that ET gets his butt kicked. I for my part am prepared to squash some bugs in the case they come to play wargames.

What do you think they would do? Charge at you holding laser pistols in their tentacles?

Why would they invade us? For the resources?

The rest of our solar system holds thousands of times the amount of any concievable resource than Earth has. The only thing Earth has more of then any other planet of our solar system is biomass, and odds are that our biomass would be completely unusable to any aliens because of biological incompatibility.

So, if they wanted to take our solar system, they would probably just bomb our entire planet into oblivion with relativistic projectiles before we even knew they were there, kinda like you might exterminate a termite infestation in a home you just moved into.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Awaras

[NASAFanboy]

IMO, i don't think that any aliens would stand a chance at conquering earth. We are the masters of this world. We have thousands of years of experience in warfare on this planet. While the various SciFi movies are amusing they do not resemble reality. Aliens would be limited to the laws of physics like we are. And the fight would be on our territory which we know best. Also i highly doubt that if there is ET out there any of them will have the resources to start an invasion on a planet that is that far away. Even if they had it would be an requirement for them to have FTL technology (if it is even possible to have). I guess by the time an planet reaches that tech level, war would not matter anymore for them. In any way we don't have to fear anything. The worst but most unlikely case that could happen is that we get exterminated. I would call that just when i recall what humankind already destroyed on this planet. The more probable scenario would be that ET gets his butt kicked. I for my part am prepared to squash some bugs in the case they come to play wargames.

That's rather optimistic of you. I believe it depends on the civilization. Perhaps the civilization has regressed on weaponry but excels at space travel, or has regressed in some other area that we have not (And so we take advantage). However, even sub a alien invasion will meet with heavy losses from the worlds military and total mobilization of a wartime industry. Aliens may come here in interest of observing a species advancing from a electronic to a interstellar era, or may come to Earth to uplift/subjugate us, or may simply just prefer to respect our wishes and keep their activities to the Outer Solar system and a good distance away from our probes rather than risk more resources by waging a war.

I'd personally doubt they'd do anything but longer for a while around our gas giants, refueling and collecting resources before leaving. Perhaps dropping a technology or two as a gift to the native species (Much akin to the behavior of Columbus/other explorers), but not much else. And considering the scale of the universe, they won't be back for probably fifty years or even an entire millennia.

Edited July 9, 2014 by NASAFanboy

[rtxoff]

You don't need FTL to invade another planet...just a pretty well-developed space industry.

And it doesn't matter if you're the aliens from B:LA, or the Covenant, a nuke or really fast projectile to the face is going to damage your ship.

So they are going to travel for centuries in their ships to conquer us? I do not see how this is feasible without FTL tech. It's like a kamikazee mission without hope for reinforcements nor sucess and without knowing what awaits you on your arrival.

So, if they wanted to take our solar system, they would probably just bomb our entire planet into oblivion with relativistic projectiles before we even knew they were there, kinda like you might exterminate a termite infestation in a home you just moved into.

Why should they do that? It would be a big waste of resources and without knowing if it's going to be a success. In this long time the projectiles need to reach us we could have developed some serious defense mechanisms and starting a serious counter attack. I do not think that anyone smart enough will risk such a scenario.

But back to the original question. I guess the smartest thing to do is not to do anything. Stay quiet and hope that nobody discovers you. I guess that is maybe also the reason why we did not find any SETI signals yet.

[Seret]

IMO, i don't think that any aliens would stand a chance at conquering earth.

They probably wouldn't even need to. Conquest is the act of taking political control of a society. What would such control give an alien civilisation? It's not like they could live here themselves. It's more likely that if a spacefaring civilisation wanted something that could only be found on Earth they'd simply come and take it. The technological level required for confident interstellar travel pretty much guarantees that they could raid us with impunity. They'd simply come, take what they wanted and leave, and there's little we could do about it.

Think about it, if you were in charge of an amphibious battlegroup and were put in charge of taking something away from a hunter-gatherer society on an island, you wouldn't need to be carpet bombing and charging up the beaches. You'd just send a helicopter to go pick it up, with orders to the boys to only fire if attacked. Straight in, straight out. Easy peasy. Huge mismatches in military capability result in very little violence being required to achieve your objectives.

[Skyler4856]

The general assumption amongst SETI folk is that any civilisation that can advance to the point of communication at interstellar distances must have a greater capacity to create than destroy. Admittedly our sample size for civilisations is small so we can't be certain.

That of course assume a type anthropomorphism, I could easily see a situation very similar to "The Formics" from Ender's game.

[Nibb31]

So they are going to travel for centuries in their ships to conquer us? I do not see how this is feasible without FTL tech.

Not if their average lifespan is 5000 years.

[micha]

“There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.â€Â

IMHO only polite to say g'day. Chances of contacting anybody are probably slim, but if everybody hides then there's the answer to the Fermi Paradox. We already optimise most of our communications and avoid leaking unnecessary energy, so our unintentional "radio signature" is tiny in time (only a few decades). Not even a blip, cosmically speaking.

As lots have said, any civilisation out there picking up our "hello" is either so far ahead of us (FTL, etc) that apart from scientific curiosity there is -nothing- we could offer them (resource-wise) so absolutely no point in mounting the typical sci-fi attack scenario, or, far more likely, will be limited to sending a "why, hello there" back.

I mean, hypothetically speaking we pick up a passive SETI signal tomorrow, does anybody seriously suggest we would immediately plan and build an invasion force instead of trying to establish mutually beneficial contact? And humans are, by a long shot, the most aggressive species on planet Earth. There's a theory which postulates that the dominant species on any planet is necessarily also the most aggressive; after all, you first have to not only survive, but thrive, before you can build up a dominating infrastructure. But to reach that point also requires an incredible amount of collaboration which, hopefully, eventually breeds out the aggression. We're not there yet, but we're not exactly space-faring yet either, having only taken the first few baby-steps out of our gravity well.