Laythe Capitalism!

[mr_yogurt]

Can we use Kerbal alarm clock ? Or navyfish docking alignment indicator ? And other mods that don't change the gameplay or adds parts.

Im considering a 3 ship solution. 1 SSTO that sends up the passengers and refuels the interplanetary stage of the mission. The interplanetary stage has enough comfy living quarters and fuel to refuel the laythe SSTO. The Interplanetary stage never lands. And the Laythe SSTO stays around laythe. Hoping to avoid any command seats since I think kerbals should have burned up on reentry in those.

Not that I use many myself but I think mods that don't in any way affect performance of any part should be allowed. That would probably calm some of the people down

I think a badge is a good idea for nearly any challenge. Gives a sense of achievement, and also serves to promote the challenge. I makes more sense for the "achievement" type of challenges though, like Jool-5 or Circumnavigation (where just completing the task is an achievement in it's own right).

That said, would you be willing to ease up on the mods a bit? Complicated mission and no mods is a surefire way to keep people away. Personally, I'm using kOS (a lot) and have the docking camera installed -- the latter comes without a dedicated part, but "infects" every docking port. I'd be willing to participate, but under the current policy this is not gonna happen.

Oh, right, forgot about that. Yes, Spaceplane Plus.

Mmm, guess I'll have to wait for 0.25 for Spaceplane Plus to become stock.

Its very much like stock in its weights and specs and such, just a lot prettier than stacking a 2 seater lander can and 3 hitchiker containers and putting on some wings.

And if the no-mods is non-negotiable, I guess I'll go for honorable mention, I just want to go to Laythe again for the first time in forever..

(I tend to really over-design missions, and usually end up not going at all, then a new update comes out and I start a fresh save and start designing all over again, this time I'm just going, even if its not for an official entry..)

I'll skip the "winning this" bit and go for at least doing it before 0.25 comes out. I'm about halfway up my science tree, I might need to unlock a bit more to finish this, but I'll be able to gather a ton of science around Jool/Laythe.

I built a very nicely furnished 18 seater luxury jet using SP+, capable of going to orbit twice without refueling.

I also built a cargo-SSTO capable of bringing up to 7 tons into orbit, I'll use that to bring up an LV-N.

Then all I need is a fuel container to power the LV-N, and a way to refuel that in orbit, and my luxury tourism program can start.

It looks like an awful lot of people wanted a change in the mod policy.

Now all mods that do not affect gameplay or add parts can be in the "stock" leaderboard.

Mods that do can still contend for the modded leaderboard.

[Alooohaaa]

Hey Cyberklad,

I am quite happy somebody says that I was thinking of doing the same. I am close to finish that damn career mode so can start work on the challenge itself.

[Laie]

Done:

This picture shows the Laythe-Goodbye rendezvous.

The most important feature of this mission is that the entire passenger compartment is talken from Kerbin to Laythe and back. No need for the passengers to change trains.

Otherwise, this is a run of the mill setup: a nuclear transfer stage with SSTO landers on either end. The picture above sums it up nicely; I have no further screenshots that absolutely need to be shown around. For an interested audience, a 35MB zipfile with all pictures and a few comments can be found here.

To do this, I hyper-edited the interplanetary vessel and the laythe shuttle in kerbin and laythe orbit, respectively; neither had any fuel.

a) Kerbin Shuttle ascends with lots of fuel; fuel remains with the transfer stage, passenger compartment is recovered.

Kerbin Shuttle ascends with new passenger compartment; interplanetary tanks are topped off, passenger compartment remains with the transfer stage.

c) flight to Laythe, docking with the Laythe Shuttle.

d) Laythe Shuttle is fueled from the transfer stage.

e) Laythe Shuttle descends with passengers.

f) EVA (I blundered with the ladders, Kerbals couldn't actually set foot on Laythe)

g) ascent and docking; excess fuel remains with the shuttle.

h) return to kerbin, enter parking orbit.

Update, f2) placed a new laythe lander, used that, worked a treat. Screenshots no show kerbals on the ground. I didn't replay the rest of the mission, though: apart from the ladders, the reworked laythe module only affects how much fuel will be left behind. I'm not accounting for that anyway, so what the hell.

The two launches/recoveries (steps a and b above) came at a total cost of 100494 funds for 144 passengers, or 698/passenger. This doesn't consider the leftover fuel and assumes that the three Kerbals in the pod were pilots.

EDIT: Apart from the blunder in step f), I didn't actually take 144 Kerbals to Laythe. Problem?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Laie

[mr_yogurt]

How much picture proof do you need? Will one picture of every ascent and landing be enough, may I even skip a step? Do you need pictures from recovery or will my word be enough?

EDIT: Apart from the blunder in step f), I didn't actually take 144 Kerbals to Laythe. Problem?

You're probably good if you upload all the pictures you took

Every ascent and landing should be good (plus interplanetary transfers). Also, I would like to see the recovery. And it's fine as long as you can take 144 kerbals to laythe with your current setup plus massless parts (ladders) if you had to.

Edited August 28, 2014 by mr_yogurt

[Ziv]

I didn't actually take 144 Kerbals to Laythe. Problem?

I think this one needs rule clarification: is it necessary to put the tourist Kerbals onto the ground of Laythe or not? In my opinion a tour without the opportunity that tourists can walk on Laythe doesn't look good, because it will be a "who can land more hith-hiking container on Laythe" challenge, which is less interesting than really putting tourists to walk on Laythe.

[Laie]

I think this one needs rule clarification: is it necessary to put the tourist Kerbals onto the ground of Laythe or not? In my opinion a tour without the opportunity that tourists can walk on Laythe doesn't look good, because it will be a "who can land more hith-hiking container on Laythe" challenge, which is less interesting than really putting tourists to walk on Laythe.

Well I brought a few for demonstration purposes, that's how I found that I was missing a ladder. I could understand disqualification for the latter reason, but a demo should be enough. If it's possible to unload a small number of kerbals, I see no point in doing that again, and again, and again... I also don't want to deal with so many kerbals on my roster once I'm back. I makes sense that all external seats need to be taken, though, as in that case the kerbals actually add weight. But with hitchhiker containers? Pffft.

As to this turning into "who can land the mostest hitchhikers", I don't think it will happen. This challenge doesn't give extra points for sheer size, after all. There are, of course, savings if you bring many passengers with a single command pod, but that's a classic case of diminishing returns. I guess that something like ten to fifteen hitchhiker containers per command module is as good as it gets -- beyond that, even small piloting errors will have a larger effect than the economies of scale.

I started with the idea of that three-point connection, then designed a large ship to put it to the test, then increased the size some more because twelve dozen is such a nice number. That six-pillar hotel tower is just what cheap tourism looks like, but for purposes of this challenge it is too big.

EDIT: just FYI, I have slow internet at home (uploading that one picture took like ten minutes) and now that I have good access, I forgot the thumb drive. I'll probably use the delay to do that again with a laddered lander. Quite embarassing, that, the more so because I fixed it before launch... and then apparently failed to save or something.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Laie

[Ziv]

I agree, it's enough to demonstrate that they can put their foot on Laythe, no need to put all the 482912 Kerbals out.

Yeah, command seat landing will be cheaper, I guess it too (but more work to put all the Kerbals into the seats ).

[mr_yogurt]

I think this one needs rule clarification: is it necessary to put the tourist Kerbals onto the ground of Laythe or not? In my opinion a tour without the opportunity that tourists can walk on Laythe doesn't look good, because it will be a "who can land more hith-hiking container on Laythe" challenge, which is less interesting than really putting tourists to walk on Laythe.

Yeah, you have to put the tourists on the ground. I guess I should have stated that explicitly

I updated the rules.

[Ziv]

Building a real SSTO for this challenge turns out to be much more harder than it seems at first...

[Tsynique]

Building a real SSTO for this challenge turns out to be much more harder than it seems at first...

Same here. But it's very rewarding fund-wise, so I'm not giving up

[Laie]

Building a real SSTO for this challenge turns out to be much more harder than it seems at first...

I take it you mean Single-Stage-To-Laythe? Because I'm using two SSTOs in my solution.

(BTW, I updated my entry. Full catalog here.)

[Ziv]

Yeah, the SSTOs will win here. But I will do a big multi-stage style mission too.

Edit: I was thinking about a "Singe Stage to Laythe and back" kind of plane...

Edited August 30, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

mr_yogurt: the SpacePlane Plus has a closed part for 4 kerbals, but it has a cargo bay with closable doors on top too. Is it allowed to pack Command Seats into the cargo bay for the interplanetary parts of the journey?

Edit: I'm planning it with seats in the cargo bay right now, but I personally would not allow it because it would give a huge advantage in size/weight and number of tourists over the normal closed parts (like pods or hitch-hiker units), so it would be similar like having a normal plane with seats on it during the whole mission (which is prohibited)... so this would be the only winning way and everybody would be forced down onto this solution.

With closed pods it's more difficult, but more realistic, more challenging and more fun!

Edited August 30, 2014 by Ziv

[Kasuha]

A little more testing to run and I'll have my entry ready. Building whole infrastructure around it, so far it is seven different ships. Hopefully the result will be worth it

[Ziv]

Sounds great, looking forward to it! what I really like about this challenge that you can have static structures without the mess of taking them there... and also the tourist trips are a good idea, and with a simple comparable indicator (ticket prize), this is just great!

[mr_yogurt]

mr_yogurt: the SpacePlane Plus has a closed part for 4 kerbals, but it has a cargo bay with closable doors on top too. Is it allowed to pack Command Seats into the cargo bay for the interplanetary parts of the journey?

Edit: I'm planning it with seats in the cargo bay right now, but I personally would not allow it because it would give a huge advantage in size/weight and number of tourists over the normal closed parts (like pods or hitch-hiker units), so it would be similar like having a normal plane with seats on it during the whole mission (which is prohibited)... so this would be the only winning way and everybody should be forced down onto this solution.

With closed pods it's more difficult, but more realistic, more challenging and more fun!

Do a normal inside pod like everyone else

I don't think that those cargo bays are pressurized. Or magically make seats comfortable.

Also, I updated the leaderboard.

[Norcalplanner]

I've been looking for a new challenge, and I think this may be it. Given my record with space planes (which is littered with the bodies of dead kerbals) it'll probably be a rocket-ish SSTO with parachutes. I've already got an 8-kerbal SSTO orbital taxi, and an unmanned SSTO tanker that takes up 20 tons of fuel at a pop, so I think the groundwork is mostly in place.

Let the flight testing commence...

[Kasuha]

Okay, I finished my entry. The Laythe Tourist Program uses a lot of technology but first I'll get a bit technical. To make things simpler to understand, I am using a new fuel type, "LFOX". That stands for rocket fuel and its unit consists of one unit of liquid fuel, and proportional amount (11/9) of units of oxidizer. Liquid fuel ("LF") is used in jets, rocket fuel ("LFOX") is used in rockets.

To avoid decimal places I am also using fuel prices in \F per 1000 units (kilounits, "ku").

Kerbin ground LF price is 800 /ku

Kerbin ground LFOX price is 1020 /ku (800 + 180*11/9)

Stations

There are two stations in the infrastructure - Kerbin station and Laythe station. Both are positioned on 110 km orbit and serve mainly as fuel depot to allow refueling of passenger ships. They also serve as ports to hold other ships involved in the infrastructure.

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To deliver fuel to stations, there is a system of lifters and tugs. These are not sent per any particular count of tourist trips, they are sent when needed. For that reason, the simplest approach is to calculate costs of fuels on each of these stations as proportional part of costs to send a refueling ship per unit of fuel delivered.

Liquid Fuel Lifter

Liquid fuel lifter delivers LF to Kerbin station. It also sets the price of LF in kerbin orbit

Purchase price: 122138 \F

Recovery price: 116987 \F

Delivered payload: 5355 LF

Trip Cost: 122138-116987 = 5151 \F

Cost of LF on Kerbin Station: 5151 / 5355 = 1040 /ku

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Rocket Fuel Lifter

Delivers rocket fuel to Kerbin station. Refuels small amount of LF for the return trip (added to trip costs)

Purchase price: 112938 \F

Recovery price: 109578 \F

Delivered payload: 3160 LFOX

Refuel: 970 LF = 1009 \F

Trip Cost: (112938-109578) + 1009 = 4369 \F

Cost of LFOX on Kerbin Station: 4369 / 3160 = 1383 /ku

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Rocket Fuel Tug

Rocket Fuel Tug transports LFOX from Kerbin Station to Laythe Station. It is part of reusable infrastructure (not recovered) so costs only consist of its fuel cost.

Starting LFOX: 2880

Delivered LFOX: 1688

Remaining LFOX on return: 130

LFOX Refill on Kerbin Station: 2750

Refill Cost: 2750 * 1383 / 1000 = 3804 \F

Total trip cost: 3804 \F

Cost of LFOX on Laythe Station: 3804 / 1688 = 2253 /ku

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Liquid Fuel Tug

Liquid Fuel Tug transports LF from Kerbin Station to Laythe Station. It is part of reusable infrastructure (not recovered) so costs only consist od its fuel costs.

Payload LF: 3750

Payload price: 3900 \F

Propellant LFOX: 1080

Refuel on Laythe station: 269 LFOX

Laythe refuel cost: 606 \F

LFOX refill on return: 984

LFOX refill on Kerbin cost: 1361 \F

Total trip cost: 3900+606+1361 = 5867 \F

Cost of LF on Laythe Station: 5867 / 3750 = 1565 /ku

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Passenger Trip

Now we are talking business. Passengers travel to Laythe in comfortable habitation modules. Sixteen passengers make one trip.

The trip starts with passengers boarding their module already mounted on lifter that transports them to the Kerbin station.

At Kerbin station, the lifter stage undocks from the passenger module and docks with the station. It is replaced by passenger tug which transports them to Laythe.

At Laythe, the tug is again replaced by a lander module and this module transfers passengers to the surface.

At the end of the visit, the lander lifts the module to Laythe station again, tug pulls them back to Kerbin and the lifter lands them safely back at the KSC.

Passenger Lifter

Launch price (including passenger module): 119508

Recover price (including passenger module): 119038

Lifter trip cost: 470 \F

Note: the lifter does not refuel at Kerbin station

Passenger Tug

Starting LFOX: 540

Refuel at Laythe: 343 LFOX

Laythe Refuel cost (in Laythe LFOX price): 773 \F

Kerbin refuel on return: 438 LFOX

Kerbin Refuel cost (in Kerbin LFOX price): 606 \F

Tug trip cost: 1379 \F

Passenger Lander

Starting LF: 540

Starting OX: 660

Final LF: 49

Final OX: 486

Used LFOX: (660-486)*9/11 = 143

Used LF: (540-49-143) = 348

Refill LFOX cost (Laythe price): 323 \F

Refull LF cost (Laythe price): 545 \F

Lander trip cost: 868 \F

Summary

Total passenger trip cost: 2717 \F

Passengers: 16

Cost per passenger: 170 \F

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I'm pretty sure this can be brought even lower by more careful planning.

[Ziv]

Kasuha: the imgur albums doesn't load, when I open a spoiler then there are no pictures

[Kasuha]

Kasuha: the imgur albums doesn't load, when I open a spoiler then there are no pictures

They work for me, when I open the spoiler the first picture is tiny but I can enlarge it by going to the next picture and back.

Maybe you can try clicking on the cogwheel in the upper right corner and choose View album on Imgur?

Edit: links to albums:

Stations

Liquid Fuel Lifter

Rocket Fuel Lifter

Rocket Fuel Tug

Liquid Fuel Tug

Passenger Trip

Edited August 31, 2014 by Kasuha

[Ziv]

Checked, spoilers still don't work, there's no cog neither. Only the imgur logo (links to the main site) and the left-right arrows jumped in the center of the black screen.

but the links work, thanks!

Edited August 31, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

To be honest, I try to understand your /F LF LFOX etc. stuff but I can't. Why don't you just count everything in funds?

[Kasuha]

\F means funds. Some people are using the root sign for it but if you look closely it's \F, just merged into one letter.

I used LFOX as "combined fuel" to make it easier (for me) to determine cost per ticket. You're of course free to check my calculations any other way, all the data are in pictures I posted.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Kasuha

[Ziv]

Kasuha: I understood that you were counting with more and more expensive fuel as it get farther to the stations and then refueling from that and counting that price, and the numbers look right but that was a very complex way with a lot of new units... but anyway, that's a well thought Laythe Tours Company, well done!

mr_ygourt: I have designed a badge, look:

What do you think? I already added it to my signature, let me know if you accept this as the official badge for your challenge. What I really like, btw, because it's hard and can be very complex, and on the other hand it's a very easy on the points: get Kerbals onto Laythe and back for the cheapest. Awesome.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Ziv

[mr_yogurt]

Updated the main page for Kasuha's entry.

mr_ygourt: I have designed a badge, look:

http://i.imgur.com/LaNUGzI.png

What do you think? I already added it to my signature, let me know if you accept this as the official badge for your challenge. What I really like, btw, because it's hard and can be very complex, and on the other hand it's a very easy on the points: get Kerbals onto Laythe and back for the cheapest. Awesome.

I'm not going to make it official just yet.