Contracts really need to be balanced

[Sheppard]

Hello everyone,

After playing KSP with the new update for a while (x64 Steam version, despite the crashes and bugs), I noticed that the contracts are really not well enough balanced and give you so much less in return for what it takes to actually complete them. I am not talking here about the little contracts, like testing some part or rescuing a Kerbal from orbit around Kerbin. No, I'm talking about the big, interplanetary contracts.

Here is a very good example: a contract requesting a flag on Duna. Now, a ship to go that far, with Kerbals on board, science, rover and a return vehicle (you don't want to send a hundred minimalistic, cheap missions to explore a planet in tiny fractions; you go big on the first try and take everything with you), costs around 700 000 (grossly speaking). So let's take a look at what you get from the contract: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=288519575

178500 and the status of Prestige is: TRIVIAL. Now how can an interplanetary ride be TRIVIAL?! And how can you get 1/7 of the value of the mission when you complete the task? Even after landing back on Kerbin and retrieving a couple of parts from the space ship, you won't come close to the amount it takes to launch the ship in the first place.

Now, let's take a look at the numbers after completing the task: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=288519699

For some reason, the numbers from the contract's description, don't match with the numbers after completing it. You get more reputation, but even less cash than promised. This might be another bug entirely.

In conclusion, if you are going for big contracts, difficult missions, you loose a lot of cash and must basically run your space program with a huge deficit. It is very hard to get some real profit out of these kind of missions.

Fortunately for me, I have already Kerbals stationed on almost every planet (was planning to return them all at once, but now, I'm rethinking the hole thing). So I can do the tasks and cash in without any cost, only profit.

Since the update, I got 3 contracts like the one above, requesting me to plant a flag on Duna. I did this 3 times with the same Kerbals left there from the first mission. It's the only way to farm some real money, until I can launch some serious ships towards other planets. My biggest ships (that can carry huge payloads everywhere in the system) cost around 1,5 million to launch (including orbital refueling).

I am kindly asking the developers to adjust the values of the rewards and the prestige status of the contracts accordingly. Interplanetary missions are the hardest and should bring the most money.

Also, I read about an idea in some thread, that recommended periodical funding from the "Kerbal government", so that you would get a constant amount of cash without needing to launch new ships; it would help towards a more balanced game.

PS: Now that debris or probes out of focus are automatically removed at the 2,3km (I think) distance cap, it is very hard or impossible to retrieve parts during a launch or suborbital flight. So there is more money lost during a new mission.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Sheppard

[KerikBalm]

Some need tweaking, for sure, Eve landings are not trivial, unless your program has already done them.

It should only be trivial if it is something you've already done.

Getting to duna initially gives a lot of prestige, doing it again and again... meh, and that makes sense.

At some point, you can always develop a fully reusable SStLKO launcher - I've got one that will launch 100 tons. Add a few re-usable interplanetary tugs, and the cost of additional missions becomes substantially reduced.

[BudgetHedgehog]

it is very hard or impossible to retrieve parts during a launch or suborbital flight. So there is more money lost during a new mission.

I agree with your main point, but I have to target this sentence in particular - the advances and rewards on contracts are (at the moment) more than enough to fund a profitable space program. The recovery refunds are meant as a bonus IF you return a vessel, they're not a goal or anything like it, they're not supposed to be a 'recover ALL the things!" but literally just 'you managed to recover this thing? Kudos, here's some cash'.

[Strikerklm96]

I tested the 4x Nasa rocket engine in SUB-ORBIT and got $650,000+. Lol

I think someone mis-typed some 0's in these contracts.

But also, they don't require that you come back from Duna, you only have to transmit the data. So imagine getting the $700,000 just from parachute landing a probe on Duna and transmitting. You can do that easily for around 70,000. So now you have a contract that gives 10x returns. The contracts should either say transmit OR return, not either one.

Also, most of these contracts are either worthless, or super valuable. I have 3 mil after two days of on off playing. It's easy if you don't try to complete everything you come across.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Strikerklm96

[RidingTheFlow]

Hello everyone,

Here is a very good example: a contract requesting a flag on Duna. Now, a ship to go that far, with Kerbals on board, science, rover and a return vehicle (you don't want to send a hundred minimalistic, cheap missions to explore a planet in tiny fractions; you go big on the first try and take everything with you), costs around 700 000 (grossly speaking). So let's take a look at what you get from the contract: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=288519575

178500 and the status of Prestige is: TRIVIAL. Now how can an interplanetary ride be TRIVIAL?!

The mission is to plant flag on Duna. You don't need 700000-worth ship to plant flag on Duna, if you launching first time, it will be just below 100000, and much less if you already have interplanetary ferry in space (and only need to refuel it).

I don't see a problem with that contract payout if you stick to what contract actually requires of you...

Edited July 19, 2014 by RidingTheFlow

[GusTurbo]

Could you post a screenshot of that $700,000 Duna rocket? It sounds like there might be some optimization you could do to bring down the cost.

[Twreed87]

If you're spending so much to go to Duna, you should also be completing more than just the one contract. Don't you have the "explore Duna" contract, that gives you points for orbiting, landing, etc? Plus maybe there are some parts you can test there that you're bringing anyways.

Plus, maybe not all contracts should be profitable. Reputation gained should definitely be higher, but maybe landing on Duna isn't done for the money. That's usually not the case with real space missions.

[Sheppard]

The mission is to plant flag on Duna. You don't need 700000-worth ship to plant flag on Duna, if you launching first time, it will be just below 100000, and much less if you already have interplanetary ferry in space (and only need to refuel it).

I don't see a problem with that contract payout if you stick to what contract actually requires of you...

I know you can go minimalistic on the contract and be very cheap with interplanetary spaceships. In this case, you could also take the smallest pod with only a kerbal in it and the minimum amount of fuel/engines. BUT that is NOT the point of an interplanetary mission. I want to explore that planet and it's moons, gather science, drive/fly around and see as much as I can of the surface and easter eggs. I'm sure most of the players agree on this. And for this particular reason, I must bring with me as much equipment as I can: rovers, spaceplanes, pods, probes, science parts, return pod etc. I'm not going to send a Kerbal JUST to plant a flag. I'm sending him there to EXPLORE. And exploring doesn't come cheap.

700.000 is just a mean value between some of my biggest, expensive ships and my cheapest. Anyways, here is a screenshot of the mission to Duna: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=197154060

It is a design before the 0.23.5 update. Now, I'm using this design for interplanetary travel and base building on other planets: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=284598763

It can go anywhere with very large payloads and the cost is around 1,5 million (including a second ship for orbital refueling - one for every 2 refuels). Here are two ships docked: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=280414688

Once I have this kind of ship around every planet, I will use them as interplanetary, reusable fairings and then my costs will go down. But until then, I will have to spend quite a large amount of cash on more ships.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Sheppard

[KerikBalm]

There is still much optimization you can do - in that first screen shot (what I assume is) the Duna Lander is much more massive than any duna lander I have ever made.

6 Nukes is more than you need, but I can understand if you want to reduce burn times.

That rover... I don't see why it needs all that fuel. It should pop chutes and maybe have enough fuel for a couple second retrorocket burst, but no more...

Reducing the size of your lander and rover would llow you to reduce the size of your entire ship, saving a lot.

As Twreed87 said:

Don't you have the "explore Duna" contract, that gives you points for orbiting, landing, etc?

When I go to duna, I drop a science lab (hoping for biomes and a compatible save), and leave kerbals there a while. I've gotten so many plant flag on the mun contracts, I just have a guy there drop a flag then delete it - still in the process of hopping from biome to biom on the mun, I may later land a more "permenant" base there just for a kerbal to get out and plant flags for money - I like to thing of it as advertizing money.

If you've been to duna already, you should already have all that extra stuff. If you haven't then you're completing more than just the flag contract, so you'll get more than just what you described