[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[Stage]

Thanks for the info! I really do appreciate it. There are two choices for ORS: One is to dynamically change the PNGs (which I need to fiddle with given Arrowstar's work anyway). The other is to dynamically change concentrations, which would likely involve a fork of ORS (which I am not opposed to - just not yet!).

I would dynamically change the concentrations, because afaik deposits don't start to move

A suggestion to Arrowstar's code: maybe you could use the SCANSat heigh map (like I did with the MKS pngs) to set random deposits at different heights, and maybe some completely random deposits. With that Karbonite would be generated mainly (but not only!) in Craters and Valleys. Nice side effect: it would be somewhat predictable where to start drilling, some planets would get huge Karbonite deposits while others won't (Planets without/with less Karbonite was suggested in an earlier post I think?)

Regards,

Stage

childStageOffset = 1

Should I be worried now?

[RoverDude]

Solution: Open Ventral_Extractor_Lg.cfg and add the following line at the bottom (before the Module code), right below Max Temp = 2900.

childStageOffset = 1

Thanks!

So, the question is there, what is the average? Can you perhaps give me an example of a distribution of current things such as Substrate? Because Substrate was roughly 50% of the Kethane that I saw in the world. The simple thing to do would be to merely double the threshold from Substrate.

if you were using the kethane deposits it wouldn't matter. as the amounts in ORS and kethane have very little to do with one another. kethane has a cap on the maximum amount you can pull from a given field. ORS purely deals with extraction speeds. and the point is that he probably knows the average (ish). the point is getting 'enough' spikes to show so every rich area will have a hotspot, but not so much that a computer starts lagging from having to display all the orbs.

(That's kinda the point - It's purely experimentation, etc. to get a light distribution of points.

I would dynamically change the concentrations, because afaik deposits don't start to move

A suggestion to Arrowstar's code: maybe you could use the SCANSat heigh map (like I did with the MKS pngs) to set random deposits at different heights, and maybe some completely random deposits. With that Karbonite would be generated mainly (but not only!) in Craters and Valleys. Nice side effect: it would be somewhat predictable where to start drilling, some planets would get huge Karbonite deposits while others won't (Planets without/with less Karbonite was suggested in an earlier post I think?)

Regards,

Stage

Should I be worried now?

Yep, I have ideas

[Furious1964]

What other mods do I need to get this to work? The standalone version doesn't work, can't be assigned to an action group and it doesn't display anything.

[Dragonchampion]

Well if we can't see where the deposits are on the world, how can we manage to plan missions to retrieve Karbonite? From the shots I saw above, there's no way to see the Karbonite deposits.

[RoverDude]

What other mods do I need to get this to work? The standalone version doesn't work, can't be assigned to an action group and it doesn't display anything.

Can you please be a lot more specific? What doesn't work? What action groups are you talking about? (And see below RE scanner)

Well if we can't see where the deposits are on the world, how can we manage to plan missions to retrieve Karbonite? From the shots I saw above, there's no way to see the Karbonite deposits.

..Because the antenna will still show densities, and you have to try real hard to find a spot without some level of the resources, just won't be the most efficient spot in the world, but it gets you rolling. Yes I am aware of this, and will look into this in the next update. In the interim, given how ORS works, you can land just about anywhere with a PPM > 0 (which is... since I use logorithmic resource mapping... pretty much anywhere) and start testing.

(Edit)

Just a reminder - ORS != Kethane. There are not clearly marked 'deposits', only concentration levels, and resources do not deplete to zero.

[Dragonchampion]

Oh, alright. Seems I misunderstood then. Seems like it's a LOT easier than Kethane.

[Furious1964]

Can you please be a lot more specific? What doesn't work? What action groups are you talking about? (And see below RE scanner)/QUOTE]

The Scanner doesn't work. I right clicked it and hit the only button that's in the drop down menu and nothing happens. And what do you mean by "See below RE Scanner"?

Edited July 27, 2014 by Furious1964

[RoverDude]

Can you please be a lot more specific? What doesn't work? What action groups are you talking about? (And see below RE scanner)/QUOTE]

The Scanner doesn't work. I right clicked it and hit the only button that's in the drop down menu and nothing happens. And what do you mean by "See below RE Scanner"?

There are about ten posts in this thread that the hotspots are not showing up because I need to tweak thresholds. If it says 'Karbonite abundance: x" where X > 0.... which is pretty much almost everywhere... start drilling.

[BARCLONE]

RoverDude,

I'm just starting to find your threads, so sorry if I've missed something important before making this post. I'd like to suggest a different approach to all of this.

Instead of making the mod focus on a single compound, why not create a "framework" for handling any number of "plug-in" elements? Use the real-universe "Periodic Table" as a starting point instead of imaginary materials that "just happen to have all the properties we need". Each of the PT elements could themselves just be a CFG (maybe a PTE file -- Periodic Table Element) file with all of the properties, and the framework keeps track of them (like a database). The challenges this would introduce to the game would be 1.) to "develop" tools to detect each element, 2.) to "develop" tools that extract each element, 3.) to "develop" tools that refine/separate/combine these elements into useful resources. All similar to what we're used to with Kethane, but expanded to cover all of the real-universe elements.

The challenge would also allow the inclusion of those "higher atomic number" elements that have been theorized, but never discovered "in the wild", just synthetically produced in labs for brief lengths of time.

[Wren]

Okay, here is what is currently going on with my testing, RoverDude! (BTW, you probably already know this but the drill needs a little bit of particle effect or noise so I know it's drilling)

First this is on a completely empty and fresh 24.2 install with the absolute only mod on it is Kerbonite.

So I set up a test platform at KSC since it is right there.

Created my drill and convert platform and a tanker.

Got drill drill'n. No problem, could see the hotspot indicator showing the parts per billion or whatever. No problem at all.

Took my claw tanker and rammed it into my drill platform and attached. Success!

Mined some Kebonite over the course of a few hundred days, lolz.

Started testing conversion and moving to the tanker.

Ran into strangeness.

When I use the monopropellant, it creates and automatically goes over to the tanker.

When I try Oxidizer or Liquid fuel.... nothing at all happens. Kerbonite is consumed, but no liquid fuel or oxidizer is created.

http://s20.photobucket.com/user/Wrenpheonix/library/KSP%20-%20Kerbonite%20Testing

(If you click on the album you can see the actual numbers by clicking one of the pictures and clicking the magnifying glass to see original resolution)

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Wrenpheonix/KSP%20-%20Kerbonite%20Testing/screenshot3_zps07f06505.png

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Wrenpheonix/KSP%20-%20Kerbonite%20Testing/screenshot2_zpsce2c84d0.png

On a non functionality standpoint, I think the contributors for the textures and mods did a damn near perfect job, it looks like it came straight out of stock with the matching colors and overall feel.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Wren

[Furious1964]

OK, but when a probe is in orbit with the scanner, does it map in on the planet or do I get a pop up window?

[RoverDude]

RoverDude,

I'm just starting to find your threads, so sorry if I've missed something important before making this post. I'd like to suggest a different approach to all of this.

Instead of making the mod focus on a single compound, why not create a "framework" for handling any number of "plug-in" elements? Use the real-universe "Periodic Table" as a starting point instead of imaginary materials that "just happen to have all the properties we need". Each of the PT elements could themselves just be a CFG (maybe a PTE file -- Periodic Table Element) file with all of the properties, and the framework keeps track of them (like a database). The challenges this would introduce to the game would be 1.) to "develop" tools to detect each element, 2.) to "develop" tools that extract each element, 3.) to "develop" tools that refine/separate/combine these elements into useful resources. All similar to what we're used to with Kethane, but expanded to cover all of the real-universe elements.

The challenge would also allow the inclusion of those "higher atomic number" elements that have been theorized, but never discovered "in the wild", just synthetically produced in labs for brief lengths of time.

Some folks agree with more resources, some want it simple Our scope is to keep it simple and fill a similar spot that Kethane does vs., say, KSP-I. That being said, this is CC 4.0 so folks are welcome to extend it. But stock will be one element.

Okay, here is what is currently going on with my testing, RoverDude! (BTW, you probably already know this but the drill needs a little bit of particle effect or noise so I know it's drilling)

First this is on a completely empty and fresh 24.2 install with the absolute only mod on it is Kerbonite.

So I set up a test platform at KSC since it is right there.

Created my drill and convert platform and a tanker.

Got drill drill'n. No problem, could see the hotspot indicator showing the parts per billion or whatever. No problem at all.

Took my claw tanker and rammed it into my drill platform and attached. Success!

Mined some Kebonite over the course of a few hundred days, lolz.

Started testing conversion and moving to the tanker.

Ran into strangeness.

When I use the monopropellant, it creates and automatically goes over to the tanker.

When I try Oxidizer or Liquid fuel.... nothing at all happens. Kerbonite is consumed, but no liquid fuel or oxidizer is created.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Wrenpheonix/KSP%20-%20Kerbonite%20Testing/screenshot3_zps07f06505.png

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Wrenpheonix/KSP%20-%20Kerbonite%20Testing/screenshot2_zpsce2c84d0.png

On a non functionality standpoint, I think the contributors for the textures and mods did a damn near perfect job, it looks like it came straight out of stock with the matching colors and overall feel.

Did you turn off the monoprop generator? It may just be a case of monoprop taking priority. Let me know how that goes, and I'll do some of my own tests. Side note - still tweaking with the display threshold, fairly close on a decent number.

[Liowen]

Landed the second tester on Minmus in a .46% zone, and only 5.9km from my first one. Walked away with it running for 10 minutes and here is what I got

Before:

After 10 minutes:

[Liowen]

Okay, here is what is currently going on with my testing, RoverDude! (BTW, you probably already know this but the drill needs a little bit of particle effect or noise so I know it's drilling)

First this is on a completely empty and fresh 24.2 install with the absolute only mod on it is Kerbonite.

So I set up a test platform at KSC since it is right there.

Created my drill and convert platform and a tanker.

Got drill drill'n. No problem, could see the hotspot indicator showing the parts per billion or whatever. No problem at all.

Took my claw tanker and rammed it into my drill platform and attached. Success!

Mined some Kebonite over the course of a few hundred days, lolz.

Started testing conversion and moving to the tanker.

Ran into strangeness.

When I use the monopropellant, it creates and automatically goes over to the tanker.

When I try Oxidizer or Liquid fuel.... nothing at all happens. Kerbonite is consumed, but no liquid fuel or oxidizer is created.

(If you click on the album you can see the actual numbers by clicking one of the pictures and clicking the magnifying glass to see original resolution)

On a non functionality standpoint, I think the contributors for the textures and mods did a damn near perfect job, it looks like it came straight out of stock with the matching colors and overall feel.

Are there fuel lines going to those out lying fuel tanks? I have converted into both LF and OX without issue, both with massive power draw. However it only fills the tank directly above it, and not to my fuel lines (sure there is some coding for this trick). I have not tested with a claw yet or an expando tube to see the results, but they might experience the same problem as fuel lines that I have found.

[Wren]

-snip-

Did you turn off the monoprop generator? It may just be a case of monoprop taking priority. Let me know how that goes, and I'll do some of my own tests. Side note - still tweaking with the display threshold, fairly close on a decent number.

Yes, in the spirit of thoroughness I tried all combinations, more than 1 conversion, only 1, and all pair combinations. The only conversion I could detect working was monopropellant. However, this must be something I am doing since other people haven't reported problems with liquid fuel or oxidizer conversion, right?

I pulled up debug log, and it doesn't say anything except game paused game unpaused.

I pumped all the fuels around and tried again, same result. Closed the client and restarted, same result.

If you need anything from me to recreate, let me know, I have dropbox, I could upload my gamedata folder and my save folder.

Are there fuel lines going to those out lying fuel tanks? I have converted into both LF and OX without issue, both with massive power draw. However it only fills the tank directly above it, and not to my fuel lines (sure there is some coding for this trick). I have not tested with a claw yet or an expando tube to see the results, but they might experience the same problem as fuel lines that I have found.

No fuel lines at all, and the only monopropellant tank is on the tanker.

[Floppster]

So.. I've been playing KSP for quite a while now and since I tend to mod very heavily, I have spent a lot of time wandering the mod development and release threads here on the forums. In all that time though, I never felt the need to register and/or post. Until now.

Essentially I registered to add my voice to the support of this project. Even in its early state, it has now replaced kethane for me. I have not felt that kethane has really been going anywhere for a long time and the speed at which Karbonite is coming together as a functional entity suggests to me that the challenge of resources in KSP needs to be something a little more collaborative and more open.

Now all we need is if Extraplanetary Launchpads could release a version not tied to kethane for any of its fuctionality... or an open-source EL project?

Anyway, congrats to all involved in getting this going so fast. Keep up the amazing work.

This guy. +1 or whatever.

[RoverDude]

Are there fuel lines going to those out lying fuel tanks? I have converted into both LF and OX without issue, both with massive power draw. However it only fills the tank directly above it, and not to my fuel lines (sure there is some coding for this trick). I have not tested with a claw yet or an expando tube to see the results, but they might experience the same problem as fuel lines that I have found.

Which direction are those fuel lines?

Yes, in the spirit of thoroughness I tried all combinations, more than 1 conversion, only 1, and all pair combinations. The only conversion I could detect working was monopropellant. However, this must be something I am doing since other people haven't reported problems with liquid fuel or oxidizer conversion, right?

I pulled up debug log, and it doesn't say anything except game paused game unpaused.

I pumped all the fuels around and tried again, same result. Closed the client and restarted, same result.

If you need anything from me to recreate, let me know, I have dropbox, I could upload my gamedata folder and my save folder.

No fuel lines at all, and the only monopropellant tank is on the tanker.

Send me a craft file via dropbox

Also, humor me and re-build the ship, could be something stuck in the ship's persistence

[Liowen]

No fuel lines at all, and the only monopropellant tank is on the tanker.

This maybe the problem, as the fuel has no where to convert to. I will grab some video of the one I have, since i want to see if it follows the flowing rules as well.

Which direction are those fuel lines?

Mine are from the center tank, that is empty at launch, out to the quarter tanks that holds the engines. In theory this should fill the empty tank first and run over into the outter tanks as well, since this is the way the lines run. The newer version has docking ports on it as well, give me a bit and I will film it and post it here.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Liowen

[Wren]

This maybe the problem, as the fuel has no where to convert to. I will grab some video of the one I have, since i want to see if it follows the flowing rules as well.

Then why would the monopropellant conversion work when the whole craft doesn't have a monopropellant containment at all, only the tanker does?

Setting up the craft file folder for you, RoverDude, expect it here soon once I get it done.

**Edit**

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dcex4u4uo6c76rl/KerboniteTestShips.zip

Let me rebuild with a whole new set up for both vehicles and see what happens.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Wren

[BudgetHedgehog]

I feel like I need a 'Karbonite For Dummies' explanation.. I had trouble figuring out ORS when I used KSPI, I'm still having trouble now.

From what I understand: A planet doesn't run out of a resource, it just has different extraction rates in different places, a concentration of the resource but it's not depleted. There's a scanning dish that shows areas of high concentration as markers on the planet while in flight mode - there's aren't necessary for extraction to work, but they do speed it up. You land, you drill, you extract, you store. You can then convert it to LF/O or transport it elsewhere.

My questions are - Does it follow the same fuel routing rules as Kethane (such as the direction of pipes to converters etc)? Is there a PartModule converter that I can adapt to convert Karbonite/LF/O to other things, such as to Oxygen for TAC or split it into Hydrogen and Karbon and then combine the Hydrogen and Oxygen to make Water for TAC? I'd love to adapt some parts to act like that for my eventual bases. Where does SCANsat come in - is it just a secondary display? Are the concentration maps pngs overlaid onto the map SCANsat generates? Can the SCANsat parts scan for Karbonite as well? Does Karbonite even need to be scanned/mapped out or is it the concentration all over already known about from the start and the scanner just toggles the markers?

I'm looking forward to trying this - I've removed Kethane from my install (haven't reached a point where I can use it in my career mode yet) and am eagerly awaiting a usable release (I know about the dev versions, but in like two days, already the stock scanner is deprecated )

Thanks in advance

[Liowen]

Then why would the monopropellant conversion work when the whole craft doesn't have a monopropellant containment at all, only the tanker does?

Setting up the craft file folder for you, RoverDude, expect it here soon once I get it done.

I believe, though I could be wrong, monoprop works a different fashion than lf and ox. Monoprop will drain equally from all tank regardless of fuel flow rules for lf and ox. If you have a tank of monprop on a lower stage seperated by a decoupler it should, in theory, drain that lower one first if you are using it, however it will use the same amount from all available tanks on a craft (or at least it did the last time I tested it out). So, in theory agan, it will fill those tanks that are empty and without fuel lines just fine, but lf and ox will not (again not 100% sure on this but it seem to be the case from previous testing).

Need to make myself some "fuel" and then I will do a short video seeing if the lf and ox rules work the way I believe them too. Video incoming soonâ„¢!

Edited July 27, 2014 by Liowen

[Floppster]

So about the landing legs/fairing structure for the drill, can we get some sort of dampening on them? I've been thinking this since i first tried them, landing at 5 m/s or something makes my ship fall apart from the impact.

[RoverDude]

I feel like I need a 'Karbonite For Dummies' explanation.. I had trouble figuring out ORS when I used KSPI, I'm still having trouble now.

From what I understand: A planet doesn't run out of a resource, it just has different extraction rates in different places, a concentration of the resource but it's not depleted. There's a scanning dish that shows areas of high concentration as markers on the planet while in flight mode - there's aren't necessary for extraction to work, but they do speed it up. You land, you drill, you extract, you store. You can then convert it to LF/O or transport it elsewhere.

My questions are - Does it follow the same fuel routing rules as Kethane (such as the direction of pipes to converters etc)? Is there a PartModule converter that I can adapt to convert Karbonite/LF/O to other things, such as to Oxygen for TAC or split it into Hydrogen and Karbon and then combine the Hydrogen and Oxygen to make Water for TAC? I'd love to adapt some parts to act like that for my eventual bases. Where does SCANsat come in - is it just a secondary display? Are the concentration maps pngs overlaid onto the map SCANsat generates? Can the SCANsat parts scan for Karbonite as well? Does Karbonite even need to be scanned/mapped out or is it the concentration all over already known about from the start and the scanner just toggles the markers?

I'm looking forward to trying this - I've removed Kethane from my install (haven't reached a point where I can use it in my career mode yet) and am eagerly awaiting a usable release (I know about the dev versions, but in like two days, already the stock scanner is deprecated )

Thanks in advance

It's a standard KSP generator with the slight change that the generators are turned off if I see you have no space for what you are about to convert.

Module wise, just steal the converter and the Karbonite part module and go crazy, have fun.

SCANSat is a secondary display - I need to set up a part to be a scanner for SCANSat. Concentration is all over the place, so scanning is less of an issue.

[Liowen]

So about the landing legs/fairing structure for the drill, can we get some sort of dampening on them? I've been thinking this since i first tried them, landing at 5 m/s or something makes my ship fall apart from the impact.

I will second this, even at 2.5m/s they nearly break.

[RoverDude]

So about the landing legs/fairing structure for the drill, can we get some sort of dampening on them? I've been thinking this since i first tried them, landing at 5 m/s or something makes my ship fall apart from the impact.

I will second this, even at 2.5m/s they nearly break.

Specificity - are your linkages failing or is the part breaking?