[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[RoverDude]

Re: A trailer, If no one else is working on one, ill gladly throw one together, since i'm not an expert coder or modeler, this is one thing i can do

Give me a couple days and ill get something put together.

Do you have a full res version of the USI company logo to use?

Will need to hunt one down

accidental did u take a look at the mks modules to see if u could use any of them for example

  MODULE
  {
      name = KolonyConverter
      converterName = Metals
      conversionRate = 1
      inputResources = Ore, 0.51000, ElectricCharge, 2.50,PatchKits,0.00000002125,RepairKits,0.00000002125,PunchCards,0.00085
      outputResources = Metal, 0.05100, False, RareMetals, 0.0000510, False,Recyclables,0.000425,true
      requiredResources = BasicMachinery,900,MEP-Refining,100
      SurfaceOnly = False
  }

with some tweaking should be able to use it to make the metals

That will tie you to MKS.

Personally, I'd just modify the Karbonite drill to also produce Ore, problem solved.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Will need to hunt one down

That will tie you to MKS.

Personally, I'd just modify the Karbonite drill to also produce Ore, problem solved.

My thinking was this: All the EPL stuff seems to use Kethane modules to do conversions & extractions. If I simply add ModuleGenerators to various EPL parts that work based on Karbonite, then Kethane doesn't have to be installed for EPL to work (which I think it would have to be if the only change was to produce ore from the drill)... But maybe there's a simpler way of doing this...

[Ralathon]

My thinking was this: All the EPL stuff seems to use Kethane modules to do conversions & extractions. If I simply add ModuleGenerators to various EPL parts that work based on Karbonite, then Kethane doesn't have to be installed for EPL to work (which I think it would have to be if the only change was to produce ore from the drill)... But maybe there's a simpler way of doing this...

Do note that EPL checks for kethane to see if it should enable resource consumption. I don't recall if there's a manual override for that.

[NoMrBond]

My thinking was this: All the EPL stuff seems to use Kethane modules to do conversions & extractions. If I simply add ModuleGenerators to various EPL parts that work based on Karbonite, then Kethane doesn't have to be installed for EPL to work (which I think it would have to be if the only change was to produce ore from the drill)... But maybe there's a simpler way of doing this...

What about this one from okbillybunnyface, it's basically MIT lisence, could ask them about extending the functionality?

[Riversand]

Hey there, Registered to say that I've been making a mod, fine tuning it... My own resource/engine mod, for basically, a pure electric engine, but i'm tempted to make a Hybrid version engine with more thrust to it, with Karbonite... heh... I keep wantign to call it Kerbonite.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Do note that EPL checks for kethane to see if it should enable resource consumption. I don't recall if there's a manual override for that.

There's a checkbox that says "Always use resources" when Kethane isn't installed, maybe that does it? I'm not sure really.

What about this one from okbillybunnyface, it's basically MIT lisence, could ask them about extending the functionality?

Beats me. I don't know enough about the various ways of converting resources to know whether that is better, worse, or the same as what I've got in the config right now. It would be an easy enough change though if it's better in some way, but the current ModuleGenerator stuff seems to function... so far anyway.

Here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/Karbonite_EPL-Patch.cfg) is the cfg as it stands now. This is what it does:

- Adds Karbonite drilling ability to EPL and Baha's EPL drills in some vague proportion to their size. Power consumption & drilling rate are arbitrarily chosen to be vaguely in line with the Karbonite drill. Ish. I have no idea how to get the drills to animate, however. Tried the KarboniteDrill module, causes crashes.

- Adds the ability to convert Karbonite to metal, metal to rocketparts, and scrapmetal to metal in EPL smelters. Conversion rates are almost assuredly horribly, horribly wrong. As is, one metal converts to 0.7 rocketparts and 0.3 scrap. I have no idea what the conversion ratio is normally. Using Kethane seems to apply some math to resource volumes/masses/whatever in order to come up with a conversion ratio.

- So far as I know, it does not remove anything regarding the normal ore method of doing things if you have Kethane installed.

Seems to work as it is - I was able to sit a Karbonite drill on the launchpad, use a smelter to change that to Metal, put Metal through a workshop and end up with RocketParts at least.

[Targa]

@RoverDude: Working on trying to pre-assemble a modular refinery and noticed something that kind of throws a monkey wrench in things. As you know, trying to align docking ports on a moon or planet's surface can be a pain, so I'm trying to build everything to exact specifications. The problem is that the KA-200 Karbonite Tank is an oddball size. It's not as tall as a Rockomax X200-16, but taller than the half-sized Rockomax X200-8. Would be nice if it conformed to everything else. The Karbonite Converter for example, is the same height as the Rockomax X200-8.

[RoverDude]

Hey there, Registered to say that I've been making a mod, fine tuning it... My own resource/engine mod, for basically, a pure electric engine, but i'm tempted to make a Hybrid version engine with more thrust to it, with Karbonite... heh... I keep wantign to call it Kerbonite.

Do it

@RoverDude: Working on trying to pre-assemble a modular refinery and noticed something that kind of throws a monkey wrench in things. As you know, trying to align docking ports on a moon or planet's surface can be a pain, so I'm trying to build everything to exact specifications. The problem is that the KA-200 Karbonite Tank is an oddball size. It's not as tall as a Rockomax X200-16, but taller than the half-sized Rockomax X200-8. Would be nice if it conformed to everything else. The Karbonite Converter for example, is the same height as the Rockomax X200-8.

hm, well I think the horse is out the barn and down the road on that specific tank (It's a non trivial operation to change a model to that degree), but others are in the works, and you can always MM up one of the open ones in the short term.

[sidfu]

accdental that sounds about right for a decent conversion of rocket parts and scrap. ima probaly mess around with that genric converter and see what i can get. more options mean less a chance of how with kethane broken we have to many broken mods

[Wren]

Woke up, immediately went back to testing.

Grabbed the newest version (0.5) and went to work testing.

Drilling and conversion still A-OK on the existing stuff, built new rigs and tested in various locations on Kerbin. Was able to land a little more rough but still managed to crash several times, I say that is probably working as intended, as when I crashed and broke I sort of deserved it.

Looking good with only Karbonite installed.

Going to test more, let me know if there is anything specific people are seeing that needs to be tested with only Karbonite itself.

[Carcharhinidae]

funny to see people patching rocketparts into MKS, something i've talked about having done already earlier in the thread.

If i wasnt going to greece tuesday i'd probably make a standalone karbonite MM fie tomorrow. who knows, i might have the time still.

[sidfu]

funny to see people patching rocketparts into MKS, something i've talked about having done already earlier in the thread.

If i wasnt going to greece tuesday i'd probably make a standalone karbonite MM fie tomorrow. who knows, i might have the time still.

well thats cause kethane convesrion is broken now due to latest patch. so we all trying to find a replacment to use with epl

[AshIzat]

I've been following this thread with great interest and someone mentioned the idea of creating a kethane like generator to convert karbonite to electric charge.

I've can't create models, and I'm useless at textures ect, but I can program. So I've create a part module which takes in karbonite and produces electric charge. It does so in a way that is proportional to the empty space in the batteries, and stops if that amount is below a very small threshold, so it shouldn't waste karbonite.

I haven't created a part or any thing, I just tested it by adding the module to karbonite converter though I imagine it would be better as a separate part (possibly in multiple sizes) but here are some screenshots if it working.

Here's the config I was using for testing, though It probably needs some work balance wise:

MODULE
{
    name = KarboniteGenerator
    // The ammount of electric charge (in kJ) recieved from 1 unit of karbonite
    conversionRatio = 500
    // The maximum output of the generator in kW
    maxOutput = 500
}

Here's a pull request to include the changes.

Seriously I really love where this mod is going, I'd love to contribute to it and I give my code freely if you guys want it.

Edited July 28, 2014 by AshIzat

[Yargnit]

Hey, just DL'd this to play with to check out as a much less part intensive form of Kethane. (Not a fan of mods that add pages and pages of parts) Just a couple questions/feedback.

Any way to not lose the Karbonite blips when you get a certain distance away? Like a once you've found it you know where it is thing. At the moment it feels kind of like a game of memory unless i'm missing something. I do kinda like the overlay for it though (but maybe make the orange spheres transparentish)

Is the mining speed supposed to be as slow as it is? The speed doesn't ultimately matter since it can be done in time-warp, but taking several Kerbin days to fill 1 of the tanks just seems a bit off?

The Karbonite engines seem a bit ridiculous? their thrust is basically equivalent of a size up engine (1.25m is producing 2.5m thrust levels, 2.5m is producing 3.75m thrust levels) But then their ISP is just... wow rofl. TBH I don't know how to rate them besides they just feel weird. (though tbh I'll probably remove them either way to end up adding as few parts as possible)

I like the look of most of the models a lot, though perhaps a tweak in texturing could make them look more stock-alike? The shapes fit well mostly, but the color makes them stand out just a tad. The one major exception being the scanner, which to be blunt it ugly ;P A re-work to look similar to 1 of the stock com arrays maybe? The quad leg thing i'm kinda meh on as well, though again to reduce added parts I'll probably just remove it anyways. (The concept is really neat though)

I know a lot of that sounds like I don't like it, but I really do. I'm just quite critical because I'm extremely conservative with the mods I use but this 1 shows real potential. (I'm actually really interested in combing it with your asteroid storage mod, but I'd like to see the required parts to make use of the cut down to just 2 or 3 1st - like being able to toggle a single tank between fuels as opposed to needing a separate part for each) A huge final thanks for making your parts appear after the stock parts at the end of the parts list instead of at the beginning or mixed in the middle btw. That alone is a simple thing that instantly turns me off a ton of mods.

[RoverDude]

Hey, just DL'd this to play with to check out as a much less part intensive form of Kethane. (Not a fan of mods that add pages and pages of parts) Just a couple questions/feedback.

Any way to not lose the Karbonite blips when you get a certain distance away? Like a once you've found it you know where it is thing. At the moment it feels kind of like a game of memory unless i'm missing something. I do kinda like the overlay for it though (but maybe make the orange spheres transparentish)

Is the mining speed supposed to be as slow as it is? The speed doesn't ultimately matter since it can be done in time-warp, but taking several Kerbin days to fill 1 of the tanks just seems a bit off?

The Karbonite engines seem a bit ridiculous? their thrust is basically equivalent of a size up engine (1.25m is producing 2.5m thrust levels, 2.5m is producing 3.75m thrust levels) But then their ISP is just... wow rofl. TBH I don't know how to rate them besides they just feel weird. (though tbh I'll probably remove them either way to end up adding as few parts as possible)

I like the look of most of the models a lot, though perhaps a tweak in texturing could make them look more stock-alike? The shapes fit well mostly, but the color makes them stand out just a tad. The one major exception being the scanner, which to be blunt it ugly ;P A re-work to look similar to 1 of the stock com arrays maybe? The quad leg thing i'm kinda meh on as well, though again to reduce added parts I'll probably just remove it anyways. (The concept is really neat though)

I know a lot of that sounds like I don't like it, but I really do. I'm just quite critical because I'm extremely conservative with the mods I use but this 1 shows real potential. (I'm actually really interested in combing it with your asteroid storage mod, but I'd like to see the required parts to make use of the cut down to just 2 or 3 1st - like being able to toggle a single tank between fuels as opposed to needing a separate part for each) A huge final thanks for making your parts appear after the stock parts at the end of the parts list instead of at the beginning or mixed in the middle btw. That alone is a simple thing that instantly turns me off a ton of mods.

The blips are stock ORS - nothing I can do on those.

Mining speed is subject to feedback - it's a first pass.

Karbonite engines are meant to be very high thrust, lousy ISP. You're throwing in raw, explosive rocks. Not meant to be something that blends in with stock.

The models are a community effort, as was final selection of the color scheme - we kinda like it, so I don't expect that to change. But the whole thing is CC, so feel free to patch. Same with my ugly array.

Required parts are pretty much... three. An extractor, a converter, and some kind of storage. RE the asteroid mod, that one already uses FireSpitter to toggle the fuel tanks.

Our location in the list of parts is pure serendipity btw

[Yargnit]

One thing I just noticed, If you set the converter to convert directly as you mine (so just leave it on) I can fill a 720 tanks worth of LF in a day easily even landed on a non-Karbonite patch) Where if i actually store it as Karbonite 1st I only get enough Karbonite to make like 8 LF a day. It seems like if you convert it directly it's acting like I'm mining from a 100% dense Karbonite patch or something instead of taking into account the actual Karbonite density?

RE the asteroid mod, that one already uses FireSpitter to toggle the fuel tanks.

Ah sweet, tbh I was just judging from the pictures since I was waiting for a new update to try it out since the current dropbox link is like a month old.

Forgot to ask, does Karbonite automatically appear on new planets added with planet factory?

Edited July 28, 2014 by Yargnit

[RoverDude]

One thing I just noticed, If you set the converter to convert directly as you mine (so just leave it on) I can fill a 720 tanks worth of LF in a day easily even landed on a non-Karbonite patch) Where if i actually store it as Karbonite 1st I only get enough Karbonite to make like 8 LF a day. It seems like if you convert it directly it's acting like I'm mining from a 100% dense Karbonite patch or something instead of taking into account the actual Karbonite density?

Ah sweet, tbh I was just judging from the pictures since I was waiting for a new update to try it out since the current dropbox link is like a month old.

Forgot to ask, does Karbonite automatically appear on new planets added with planet factory?

Known bug have to look into it. It's just flat out odd because this uses stock generators.

RE new planets - it's stock ORS, so PNGs are required, or at the very least, some config updates.

[Smurfalot]

Been working on an above-atmosphere ram scoop. Uses electromagnetic fields to attract stray Karbonite atoms in very low orbit. Slow but able to time accelerate.

http://i.imgur.com/KXmb65r.gif

That would make a cool airbrake on a plane too!

That is exactly what I thought too.

Edit: Silly question, is this still compatible with Kethane given that you are intending to replace it? I really like that overlay...

Edited July 28, 2014 by Smurfalot

[RoverDude]

Silly question, is this still compatible with Kethane given that you are intending to replace it? I really like that overlay...

Still would imply that it ever was

Completely different, uses ORS, etc. So no Kethane overlay, unless someone wants to build one that translates ORS average pixel depth to a shade on an overlay hex/tri.

Actually.... I'd pose that as a coding challenge if someone wants to try this (I'll give it a go mysenf if nobody is interested, but I have to get my mod backlog caught up first )

Can we recreate the Kethane style overlay (though I do prefer tris not hexes as was mentioned earlier in the thread). Do the planetary overlay thing but tie it to a new piece of gear, so a part module, that when you click it on, it displays the texture with the tri shading over the planet.

In theory the tri-maps could be procedurally generated based on a PNG (in this case the usual ORS pngs).

It would make ORS spectacularly .....

Edited July 28, 2014 by RoverDude

[Smurfalot]

Still would imply that it ever was

Completely different, uses ORS, etc. So no Kethane overlay, unless someone wants to build one that translates ORS average pixel depth to a shade on an overlay hex/tri.

I realize you are trying to make a statement of principle here regarding kethane, but does it really hurt to maintain basic compatibility for people who intend to use both, especially because that overlay is pretty much a must have feature for me?

[Yargnit]

RE new planets - it's stock ORS, so PNGs are required, or at the very least, some config updates.

Sorry, not sure what that means. Pretty much my issue is the stock solar system is too small for a mining program to have a real purpose sadly. What I want to do it use the mod that adds multiple stars & then use PF to add a bunch of planets around each star. Then basically be able to set up a home base planet in each system that I can use this to refuel on.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I realize you are trying to make a statement of principle here regarding kethane, but does it really hurt to maintain basic compatibility for people who intend to use both, especially because that overlay is pretty much a must have feature for me?

From the OP:

the licensing and, more recently, the inclusion of a certain controversial mod, has made me sad [...] I just don't agree with his choice RE open licensing, and I think there's plenty of space for an alternative.

There was never any intention to maintain compatibility with Kethane. The whole point of this was to create something that didn't depend on Kethane because of the licensing issues and ModStats. That, and competition is always healthy if you want the overlay and everything Kethane contains, keep Kethane in. It should be simple enough to create Karbonite as something that can be scanned and extracted with the Kethane parts (similar to EPL's Ore). I don't know off by hand how to do it, but I'm sure it's something that could be done in a day or two.

Edited July 28, 2014 by ObsessedWithKSP

[Smurfalot]

From the OP:

There was never any intention to maintain compatibility with Kethane. The whole point of this was to create something that didn't depend on Kethane because of the licensing issues and ModStats. That, and competition is always healthy if you want the overlay and everything Kethane contains, keep Kethane in. It should be simple enough to create Karbonite as something that can be scanned and extracted with the Kethane parts (similar to EPL's Ore). I don't know off by hand how to do it, but I'm sure it's something that could be done in a day or two.

Right, as I said, "I realize you are trying to make a statement of principle here regarding kethane..."

My point is there is a difference between dependency and compatibility. And since he said there would be no native overlay for Karbonite in the near future I would like to continue using the kethane overlay until there is something equivalent or better.

[RoverDude]

I realize you are trying to make a statement of principle here regarding kethane, but does it really hurt to maintain basic compatibility for people who intend to use both, especially because that overlay is pretty much a must have feature for me?

This has zero to do with making a statement and everything to do with the fact that this is based on ORS.... I mean, what would be the point to create Kethane in... well... Kethane? Plus given how shockingly restrictive Kethane is, even if I were inclined to contribute, it would be nigh on impossible because the licensing is downright draconian. Hence, the creation of a free and open alternative. And I'd say judging by the community response, this is pretty much just what the doctor ordered.

So my counterpoint would be... WHY do you need the overlay? We have hotspots, and given ORS is concentration based not deposit based, it's a completely different mining paradigm. We also have SCANSat which provides a nice resource overlay as well (and it's darn handy to see concentrations along with slopes...). And that still does not preclude someone from making an overlay, especially since we have no licensing issues.

To reiterate... there would be zero point to make Karbonite if it were Kethane compatible, because I'd just be making another Kethane resource... which does not make a lot of sense

Sorry, not sure what that means. Pretty much my issue is the stock solar system is too small for a mining program to have a real purpose sadly. What I want to do it use the mod that adds multiple stars & then use PF to add a bunch

of planets around each star. Then basically be able to set up a home base planet in each system that I can use this to refuel on.

ORS bases resource distribution based on grayscale PNG files. If these are not present, then no resources are present, so something would have to be made for any new planets. Not really a big deal, but it is a detail.

From the OP:

There was never any intention to maintain compatibility with Kethane. The whole point of this was to create something that didn't depend on Kethane because of the licensing issues and ModStats. That, and competition is always healthy if you want the overlay and everything Kethane contains, keep Kethane in. It should be simple enough to create Karbonite as something that can be scanned and extracted with the Kethane parts (similar to EPL's Ore). I don't know off by hand how to do it, but I'm sure it's something that could be done in a day or two.

Maintainint 'compatibility' implies that there was ever even a possibility of that... I think that's the fundamental disconnect. Two very different resource backends - remaking Kethane using Kethane would be a waste of time, because Kethane already has a Kethane analogue... it's called Kethane. ORS has no such analogue other than KSPI. So here we now have a stand-alone ORS based alternative called Karbonite.

[RoverDude]

Right, as I said, "I realize you are trying to make a statement of principle here regarding kethane..."

My point is there is a difference between dependency and compatibility. And since he said there would be no native overlay for Karbonite in the near future I would like to continue using the kethane overlay until there is something equivalent or better.

Dude.. physically impossible, even if licensing allowed it. We're talking apples and tractors here. They both come in red and green, but you can't eat a tractor. ORS != Kethane. Kethane is Kethane based, Karbonite is ORS based. There is no option of compatibility at the feature level. Only equivelant would be to create a Karbonite resource in Kethane... but no real point to that, just use Kethane.