Science labs

[KerikBalm]

With the new update, I was again hoping that the science lab will become more useful... but right now... its... just flavor/RPing it seems.

It has 2 functions:

1) Increase transmission rate:

-Problem: the transmission rate never reaches 100%, and is often still quite low (goo, mat bay, surface sample), thus it is preferable to return samples.

Sure, it would have a use for 1 way mission, like unmanned rovers, but this thing is manned. Sure, you can send Kerbals one 1 way missions, but I think most players do not like that idea.

A feature that is useful for 1 way missions is a poor addition to a crewed module

2) Reuse Mat bays and goo canisters.

-Problem: for the same weight, you can carry 10 goo cans, and 10 mat bays. Making them as little modules allows you to land, do the science, store results, and detach them, your ascent stage is then lighter and more fuel efficient.

There are few situations where a sciece lab is better than 1 goo+ mat bay modules.

Now that parts cost money, there's even less incentive to add 3.5 tons of dry weight to your ships/requiring your landers to carry up another .35 tons of experiments

3) Data storage

IIRC, you can store multiple reports of the same type in it so its easy to max out that science in one go (for when 1 experiment wont max it out, like a temp scan or EVA report)

-problem: diminishing returns mean there isn't all that much point to this, and you've probably got another command pod to store things in.

Synergy? Versatility?

Meh, it is nice to be able to do an experiment, do a boosted transmission for immediate science, and then do it again and store the data for max science (esp on long interplanetary missions). You can already do that for all science except the mat and goo - just for less science. You can do that with surface samples, which you can't always do with labs (landing a lab is really inefficient, unless perhaps if it is the very last stop of your journey).

It is the main draw of it (aside from RP reasons)

I suggest to just make the transmission boost better:

Up the transmission modifier from 1.5x to 2.0x (it seems they've already contemplating this, modding it to be 2.0 changed the description from detailed analysis to exhuastive analysis)

Or change it so that you get an additional 50% of the remaining science.

Ie a transmit value of 20% leaves behind 80%, detailed analysis recovers 40 of those 80, for a transmit value of 60%, while a transmit value of 50, leaves behind 50, and the detailed analysis recovers 25 of those 50, for 75% transmission.

Add a smaller uncrewed "automated lab" that has a 1.5x modifier, and cannot reset experiments - something intended for 1 way trips (ie, Eve, maybe Tylo)

[M3tal_Warrior]

The missions I do always use a lab (but then I rover about half the mun with it and such), but you're right: Labs are (apart from the resetting/storage capacity) quite useless and damn heavy. Most of the time I use them as eye candy, for a space station HAS to have at least one lab and such. And you're right - having a fully fledged gigantic lab at hand that is just able to slightly increase the science transmitted is awkward. It should be able to do almost everything in place. Or being necessary for contracts (on the lines of 'set up experiment blah on Mun').

[captainb]

I would prefer the lab slowly accumulate science over time. Of course, it would need to be continuously crewed and in an interesting location such in orbit around a planet/moon. Put a cap on the allowable science accumulation depending on the planet/moon it was orbiting. A lab orbiting Duna would have a much higher cap than one orbiting Minmus, etc.

This would avoid the issue of science spamming and provide a reason to have multi-Kerbal missions to other planets. Combining with life support mods would add an interesting game dynamic, where you would be concerned about the longevity of missions, rather simply how many science instruments you can stick on the ship.

[Godot]

...

2) Reuse Mat bays and goo canisters.

-Problem: for the same weight, you can carry 10 goo cans, and 10 mat bays. Making them as little modules allows you to land, do the science, store results, and detach them, your ascent stage is then lighter and more fuel efficient.

There are few situations where a sciece lab is better than 1 goo+ mat bay modules.

Now that parts cost money, there's even less incentive to add 3.5 tons of dry weight to your ships/requiring your landers to carry up another .35 tons of experiments

...

Well, as you said ... the part is lighter than 10 Goo Canisters and Science jrs. ...

not to forget that 10 goo canisters and Science jrs. have the additional costs of requiring more engines and fuel.

If you use it correctly (that is, in a station around Mun) then you need only one Spaceship + Lander in order to get Science out of all of Muns Biomes ...

whereas using single missions to Mun would require 15 Spaceship + Lander missions in order to visit each Biome once ...

something which (according to my calculations from last KSP versions) would cost you 4 times the money that you would require to use the Spacestation + a single Spaceship + Lander to visit all Biomes

Using a science lab in a station will become even more useful as soon as Squad begin with the long needed step of putting multiple Biomes to other Planets (like Duna), so that there as well you´ll be better off with a science station and a reusable lander (instead of having to fly multiple spaceships to far away Duna) ... as well as, when Squad rebalances the science and monetary system, so that science and money will be less abundant and has to be harder earned than currently

Edited July 25, 2014 by Godot

[KerikBalm]

"not to forget that 10 goo canisters and Science jrs. have the additional costs of requiring more engines and fuel."

Huh? it requires the same amount of fuel and engines to haul 10x .35 tons, as 1x .35 tons.

Also, the break even is at 11, because you take 3.5 for the lab, but then you still need to take the modules, ie 1 lab +1 goo + 1 mat bay vs 11 goo and 11 mat.

Maybe you thought I meant each mat+ goo module would have its own engine - Nope, I'm talking about adding a stack with 1 docking port jr on them, the lander docks to the end of the stack (attaching one to it), the docking port from the next in the stack decouples, setting the lander+ 1 science module free.

Yes, the docking port adds a little weight (0.02), but then you get to just leave them at the surface, with a lab, you need to haul them back up if you're goig to re-use them.

At the moment, only the Mun has more than 11 biomes - Minmus only has 9.

Do we really want a module that is only useful for farming munar science?

Its what I use it for, certainly, but it feels a bit silly - something a few hours away by space travel -> send a mobile lab for onsite science processing, something that requires a multi year journey: meh, no point in taking a mobile lab.

"whereas using single missions to Mun would require 15 Spaceship + Lander missions in order to visit each Biome once ...

something which (according to my calculations from last KSP versions) would cost you 4 times the money that you would require to use the Spacestation + a single Spaceship + Lander to visit all Biomes"

Again, you can still do the station thing without the lab, just include a stack of mat bay+ goo with 1 small docking port each.

"Using a science lab in a station will become even more useful as soon as Squad begin with the long needed step of putting multiple Biomes to other Planets (like Duna)"

Only if they add more than ~9 biomes (as you also want high and low orbit)- since even with the small weight of docking ports, its more efficient since you don't have to haul the science modules up from orbit again for re use (note you can make 1 module with 2 mat bays and 2 goo with 1 docking port, for the high and low orbit, to save a little cost)

If the lab had its own unique science experiment that it can perform, that would be an idea - it also wouldn't hurt to have it incorporate its own goo and materials bay, but that would be redundant if you have a separate lander that will ahve those. Maybe if it incorporated all science instruments so you could reduce part count?