Holy Grail of Mun Bases! STOCK ONLY

[Munarware]

And a big surprise if you look closely enough...

[Munarware]

Well, those of you watching this thread from the beginning will know that it's getting down to crunch time. 2500 views and not a single comment on the hardware I've posted but that's ok. I'm going to keep going, because despite giving everyone a chance, I'm at the same place I was when I listed this challenge. A few very diligent readers have posted some very cool bases, and while some of them have met the basic requirements of the challenge, none have addressed the "Bonus" and follow on clarification I posted about making an interconnected grid.

Admittedly I made this part a bonus because it is very difficult, and through all of my exploration of this forum, I still haven't seen it done. I realize this is partly because the idea behind what I was looking for is difficult to convey and I did a poor job of it. I described what I was doing as "modular", when that isn't exactly a thorough description. There are plenty of examples out there of modular bases. They use separate modules that are attached together to expand, and that makes them "modular". So what's beyond modular?

cel·lu·lar

ˈselyələr/

adjective

adjective: cellular

• 1.
  of, relating to, or consisting of living cells.
  "cellular proliferation"
  
• 2.
  denoting or relating to a mobile telephone system that uses a number of short-range radio stations to cover the area that it serves, the signal being automatically switched from one station to another as the user travels about.
  
• 3.
  (of a fabric item, such as a blanket or vest) knitted so as to form holes or hollows that trap air and provide extra insulation.
  
• 4.
  consisting of small compartments or rooms.
  

Without a specific definition for cellular "construction" I would offer this for your consideration. Cellular construction is a method which relies on a standardized set of universally compatible building blocks or "cells" which are assembled to create an interconnected network of closed loop, repeatable AND variable patterns in all directions from any point in the overall structure to create various constructed "Fabrics" or "Tissues".

All the most efficient structures in our life, from our bodies to our largest cities, are cellular. They were not creatively designed this way from the beginning, but rather evolved this quality through natural or unconscious selection. Likewise, modular base construction in Kerbal space program is about to evolve from the "fractal" concepts of the past into a fully "cellular" system. This Sunday.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Munarware

[123nick]

why stock only? i mean, ksp does lack station/base modules, things like home or even stock station expansion could help make this mod better. and if you think mods are unfair then your looking at the wrong mods, cause most mods i see are pretty balanced

[Munarware]

why stock only? i mean, ksp does lack station/base modules, things like home or even stock station expansion could help make this mod better. and if you think mods are unfair then your looking at the wrong mods, cause most mods i see are pretty balanced

I don't think MODs are unfair at all! It's all relative and KSP allows you to do whatever you want. In fact I've mentioned in this thread itself that I think even some stock parts are unfair like the Electrothermal Generators, and I try not to even use them, although I have caved to that particular part recently. That said, as you can read on my very first blog post, if anything I'm simply overwhelmed by all the options available for mods and that's why I don't use them yet.

Someday I will, but I think there is a particular challenge in pushing the limits of stock craft and while many mods are very balanced, there are also those that simply skirt the rules of rationality and right now I don't need or want to sift through them all to find the good ones. I've seen several beautiful station and base mods, and I hope to one day take the system I'm developing now (which is not a mod) and apply it to some of those amazing looking parts.

I have done a lot, and like I said, I think I'm doing things that haven't been done before and I haven't even gone beyond the Mun. If and when I feel like I have reached the limits of what I can do with stock parts then I will mod, but before then it seems a tad frivolous for someone like me who enjoys the challenge of manual landings and such.

Are mods cheating? No. But for me it's kind of like Michael Phelps taking steroids to win a game of Marco Polo with his nephews. Not exactly (I don't consider myself the Michael Phelps of anything), but kind of like that, for me. Not judging others.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Munarware

[123nick]

I don't think MODs are unfair at all! It's all relative and KSP allows you to do whatever you want. In fact I've mentioned in this thread itself that I think even some stock parts are unfair like the Electrothermal Generators, and I try not to even use them, although I have caved to that particular part recently. That said, as you can read on my very first blog post, if anything I'm simply overwhelmed by all the options available for mods and that's why I don't use them yet.

Someday I will, but I think there is a particular challenge in pushing the limits of stock craft and while many mods are very balanced, there are also those that simply skirt the rules of rationality and right now I don't need or want to sift through them all to find the good ones. I've seen several beautiful station and base mods, and I hope to one day take the system I'm developing now (which is not a mod) and apply it to some of those amazing looking parts.

I have done a lot, and like I said, I think I'm doing things that haven't been done before and I haven't even gone beyond the Mun. If and when I feel like I have reached the limits of what I can do with stock parts then I will mod, but before then it seems a tad frivolous for someone like me who enjoys the challenge of manual landings and such.

Are mods cheating? No. But for me it's kind of like Michael Phelps taking steroids to win a game of Marco Polo with his nephews. Not exactly (I don't consider myself the Michael Phelps of anything), but kind of like that, for me. Not judging others.

well, i guess thats respectable. maybe ill uninstall my mods and have a go at this challenge.

[Munarware]

well, i guess thats respectable. maybe ill uninstall my mods and have a go at this challenge.

You have two days

[Munarware]

OOoo I found some bases that are so close it hurts. Still have not seen a closed loop though. So far I have 4 closed loops in a multi-port per side square cell but only 6 hitchhiker cans. The rest is just making it dense and adding full bypass corridors. Which will be done by Sunday.

[123nick]

im sorry, but i dont think i will be able to finish the challenge. although i did make the rover that moves the hitchhiker modules, i met this horrible bug that made it impossible, and also i accidently tried to load my mod save with only stock (mis-click) and all the crafts were deleted due to the mod parts, but i can just relaunch the crafts.

[Rune]

I think you should read the challenge guidelines and reformulate the whole thing, but in the meantime, I think my Eagle Base Pack would qualify like, a lot, and perhaps it can serve as the "it can be done" proof most challenges have. I mean, you would have to empty a lot of "to look good" fuel tanks, and ignore the fuel dump modules, but other than that, it already complies with all the rules, including the infinite expansion bit (you always end up with more free ports than you started with, unless you get really creative). See, one pack assembled on Mun (ignore the large pressurised rover):

And then there is this, three packs but instead of fuel tanks I brought extra nodes (and it's still unfinished, it'll eventually have three habs, two labs, a fuel dump, and an escape vehicle docked in the middle):

And this is how the base pack looks now, after ditching the fairings and with the transfer stage still connected (which BTW can deploy it to Munar or Minmus orbit to be picked there by the Eagle dropships, or refuel to go interplanetary with 1.3km/s before using the fuel on the payload, which would give another km/s or so):

You can read about the whole thing, including how I deploy them, here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/82762-Eagle-MkIII-Now-upgraded-with-sexiness-and-a-surface-base!

and BTW, it's due for an update real hard since I have been using much upgraded versions of both the base and the Eagle in my save, but I'm pretty busy ATM with other stuff.

Rune. If I don't get the "cellular" appellative after building a hexagonal pattern from the same four modules, I don't know what qualifies.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Rune

[Munarware]

Rune! I love your base, and I looked at most of your designs and my only reservation is that the loop itself isn't quite finished. The reason I hope you can understand for my questioning is that in my own testing I struggled with the last piece because of a certain maneuvering quirk that required a redesign. So, if you can finish it then yes it sure as heck does meet all of the challenge requirements, but I am going to nit pick this one thing because I respect you and I'm experienced enough to know that having all the right pieces isn't proof that they'll all fit together how you want them to.

My problems arose with leg placement and rover orientation and depending on exactly how your dropship works, which I can't really see, I cannot exactly be sure you won't have similar problems, so I hope you respect that there is a reason for my doubt and that I did look closely at your designs. I also made sure this was possible before I posted this challenge, I said I have proof and I'm not a liar, but if I were to post my proof, then it would kind of give everyone the solution to the challenge so I couldn't do that. Sorry.

One thing I'm glad to say though is that your base is completely different from mine. Whereas in the diagram I made of the two examples of cellular expansion, yours is the the hexagonal form factor, and mine is the square so hopefully it will still be interesting for people to see tomorrow

[Rune]

Rune! I love your base, and I looked at most of your designs and my only reservation is that the loop itself isn't quite finished. The reason I hope you can understand for my questioning is that in my own testing I struggled with the last piece because of a certain maneuvering quirk that required a redesign. So, if you can finish it then yes it sure as heck does meet all of the challenge requirements, but I am going to nit pick this one thing because I respect you and I'm experienced enough to know that having all the right pieces isn't proof that they'll all fit together how you want them to.

My problems arose with leg placement and rover orientation and depending on exactly how your dropship works, which I can't really see, I cannot exactly be sure you won't have similar problems, so I hope you respect that there is a reason for my doubt and that I did look closely at your designs. I also made sure this was possible before I posted this challenge, I said I have proof and I'm not a liar, but if I were to post my proof, then it would kind of give everyone the solution to the challenge so I couldn't do that. Sorry.

One thing I'm glad to say though is that your base is completely different from mine. Whereas in the diagram I made of the two examples of cellular expansion, yours is the the hexagonal form factor, and mine is the square so hopefully it will still be interesting for people to see tomorrow

You are going to have to explain this "loop not finished" thing much more thoroughly. I mean, I understand you might not know all the tricks to use it and do it yourself, but the above picture should be proof enough that I can expand indefinitely, since the finished hexagon could be docked to three copies of itself just using the standard size ports, even with all the other modules docked around it... Do you mean I have free ports on the finished thing? Because that is the reason I use shielded ports. If what you mean is that my rover can't pick some of the pieces to move them around once they are in place... just trust me, each of the modules was repositioned at least once during the construction of that hexagon, especially the passageways because I had screwed up and sent two different lengths by accident. And that was after I had removed the landing gears on them by EVA (I have the legs configured to be pick-able by KAS), BTW. You just have to know really well what you are doing...

The Eagle dropship, BTW, works by landing with each piece on it's payload bay on the ground next to the base, then dropping them and lifting off to go get the next. No special tricks there, other than I usually manage to land within 100m of the base, which saves a lot of time when picking the new modules, and that they all can fit in the payload bay because the side ports on the payload bay are universal (both normal and Sr. docking ports will work).

Rune. And yeah, if I had enough construction rovers present, I could move the whole thing around just like you.

[Munarware]

Ok ok yeah yeah, I just really want you to finish it ok Pleaaassssseee you know my real purpose with this challenge was to see not just if someone else could do cellular, but to see it done differently than I was doing it and seriously your base could not be better in that regard. I do trust that you can finish it. And now I need to get back to taking screenshots. OMG everyone wants me to do stuff for the holiday weekend and I'm just like "you guys I need to be kerbaling here, I have a friggin deadline!"

[Munarware]

But for the record, a lot of things can get in the way not necessarily with the first loop even but with the second. Lets just say I could imagine a scenario in which you might be able to place the last piece but what if you couldn't get your rover out from underneath it with all the legs down? Since your rovers only attach at one point, to me it feels like you wouldn't be able to adjust how the pieces are oriented on top of it, so if that alignment is off, or there is a leg in the way that you didn't anticipate, you might not be able to extricate your rover once all the legs are down. Also I would imagine your corridor pieces sag a little bit with all the legs up, for which you may be able to compensate from some angles by nudging it up, but lets say that doesn't work from the angle to which you are constrained on the last piece. So even though the piece is right in there, it might not dock. Again I don't know, but I know enough to ask questions.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Munarware

[Rune]

Oh, now I get what you mean, you are worried about alignment issues. So was I at first, but the "sag" in the passageways actually helps with that: when I get both ends close, the magnetic pull takes care of small misalignments. You have to take care to set up shop in a fairly flat surface, but even if you accumulate some errors because you crash into it a bit too hard and bend the connections, you can reset everything into proper alignment by tiemwarping (second best use of timewarp after killing rotation).

As to the rover getting stuck, well, you can also timewarp so physics gets unloaded and it ghosts through to freedom. But the opposite, the rover not being able to get under a module because the ground was slightly uneven and one side of the base had slightly lowered itself, actually happened during development. I solved it forever by slightly lowering the legs on the node module for future builds, but at the time, I had a stroke of genius and by retracting landing gears selectively I was able to see-saw the whole thing into letting the rover under.

As to actually finishing it and showing it here, it'll take some time. The main reason being my insistence in having only two savegames, the one where I build and the one where I fly. That base is from my career save, and it is currently awaiting the delivery of the last pack, which will arrive in a couple days, but in the meantime there is a bunch of other things that I need to do, like assembling the second segment of my L3 colony or launching another Medusa mothership to Moho. It's a busy save with 3 stations and four bases just in cismunar space!

Rune. The longest I have timewarped in that save must be under one kerbal day.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Rune

[Munarware]

Sorry about the delay, of course everything came up today and I have actually not had a great day, but I am not sleeping tonight without posting this. I also want to preface this by saying that if you didn't know, this is purely a design exercise. As far as I know, there is no actual reason in the game to try and build a base this way. I wanted to make one this way because this is how you would make a practical base for settlement and scaled expansion. If you were in a city, imagine if you had to go to the center of the city to go anywhere else in the city. Pretty soon, the center of that city would be kind of a mess of congestion, and that's why you need a cellular system.

It's small right now, I know, but she can grow. What you're looking at here is the culmination of 5 Launches. Up until this point, it was not a universal cell. But now, as you can see, it could grow indefinitely in all directions and there are already some closed loops if you count the hitchhicker modules as corridors, which I kind of don't so it needs more corridors, but already it's starting to look like a city. I've seen people launch and land way bigger payloads than this on the youtubes, but the point is that these are manageable to fly and handle, and they are really at the limits of what I think is reasonable. It does take a pretty large asparagus staged booster to get them up but it's not ridiculous.

The Phaze1 Modules launch like this. The central BAS module is substantial enough to just launch by itself with the cupola, which just by itself is quite heavy. It would make a fairly nice base all by itself, and each module is kind of like a stem cell that grows into a specialized cell.

The NOD module launches with two ADARR units each, and you need two nodes. Once you get enough ADARR units, you can launch 3 nodes at a time to keep it balanced when you need more Phaze1 nodes to expand.

The Phaze2-1 module is the largest to launch with 3 hubs and 2 hitchhikers but it's manageable without the cupolas.

And you have to launch two of them, in order to place one on both sides of the Phaze1 Modules

And some more screenshots after Phaze2-1 completion:

It makes some lovely pathways that are inviting to walk down due to the colored lighting which gives the perception of distance as you traverse the otherwise identical modules. You can really see here the module foundations consist primarily of MK2 lander cans. I don't consider them proper long term habitation but they could serve as overflow for visitors or backup shelters in emergencies.

Unfortunately I didn't really think to take screenshots before this point but it's probably best that I show the details about retrieving a module from it's landing point and the attachment process for Phaze2-2 because that is actually the most complicated attachment procedure so far. I am going to do that in a separate post because I want to do full resolution screenshots.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Munarware

[Munarware]

I included in this challenge a bonus about making corridors that are not made out of hitchhiker modules. You don't want to be going through someone's place to get from place to place you know? Thus, the cell configuration of the baseCITY needs a corridor that runs perpendicular to the corridors in Phaze2-1.

baseCITY Phaze2-2 is really like the cell membrane. It has tons of docking ports, a high gain communications antenna and it serves as the main lateral corridor for the cell. When the base needs to be expanded the Phaze2-2 "HAL" module can be relocated to the edge or expanded onto in place. Seen here in it's launch configuration:

And there's the module package landed about 300 meters away. And yes I'm very proud of that landing.

Appraoching the HAL module with some old ADARRs. Usually I leave the descent modules on until I get at least one ADARR attached in case I need to giggle it or lift it a little.

Once it's back near the base you have to break it apart. The HAL module is docked in a way that reduces lateral torque on its smaller docking ports during transport but it needs to be arranged from an H shape into a straight line to be a corridor. This involves docking three ADARR units to the end HAL module, decoupling the node from the master HAL module (the one with the high gain dish), attaching a fourth ADARR unit to the last available port on the module side, and then decoupling an ADARR from the end, rotating the module and then re-docking it with the master HAL module. It's a very complicated process but here are just two beautiful screenshots I did in the dark for drama:

And Boom, H shaped modules are reconfigured into a nice long hallway.

And the approach:

And the attachment, now it's a real working cell:

Though it still isn't quite finished, and there was a slight malfunction with that ADARR unit. Since it has no reaction pods like the new ADARRs do, it will be dragged to a nearby crater (deleted):

Tomorrow I will post details about Phaze3 because the cell isn't quite finished but I'm tired. I know it's not huge, but it has been a ton of work. Figuring out how to span the same distance with two sets of completely different parts was insanely difficult and I was actually even surprised it worked, but way to go to the game developers for keeping the part lengths standardized enough that this was even possible.

[Munarware]

Here are a couple more screenshots of the Phaze2 Cell

Oh and the craft files. It was supposed to be the reward for the winner, but Rune won and I don't think anyone cares anyway so here ya go. Some of them have the booster, some don't. Make a subassembly and figure it out. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fye9a52kts5o0d6/AABAZEe5TYC8Mgl1G0OSZ3NHa?dl=0

Edited September 2, 2014 by Munarware

[Jett_Quasar]

You have a matrix moon base - looks awesome! That must have been a lot of work.

JR

[ixolate industries]

I know it's a bit late right now but couldn't you have had modules with Cans on top then connecting tubes below so the extra docking port tube would not be necessary for them to get around?

Nice base though just a bit too part heavy for me at the moment.

[Munarware]

You have a matrix moon base - looks awesome! That must have been a lot of work.

JR

Thank you! it sure has been, and more to come

[Munarware]

I know it's a bit late right now but couldn't you have had modules with Cans on top then connecting tubes below so the extra docking port tube would not be necessary for them to get around?

Nice base though just a bit too part heavy for me at the moment.

Very nice observation! In fact yes, that is the main objective for Phaze3 which is going to allow for double the density of Phaze1 and Phaze2, and in order to do that the hitchhikers are going to be lifted to L2 with corridors all on L1.

In fact here's a Phaze3 testing screenshot I was going to post soon anyway, but I believe this is what you're talking about. The High Density Node:

There are actually a couple more Phaze3 sub-cells but this is the main idea. baseCITY will allow for many distinct density configurations to suit the needs of any colony.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Munarware

[Munarware]

Oh also the central BAS Sub-Cell is only 44 parts after the descent modules are detached. I bet you could cut that down as it really doesn't need the lights, and I doubt that many of the lower strut connectors I use in most sub-cells are actually necessary as there should be plenty of support from the upper struts. If you play with the leg placement and get really good height variance from just locking suspension you could get rid of an entire set of legs, but having a redundant set of legs has been very useful to me. You could consolidate solar panels and/or ditch the ladders too so it could get down to the 20-30 part range and still function but I sure do love my lights!

[Speeding Mullet]

Obviously a little late now, but this is the route I was going down. I got as far as deploying the first central hub on the Mun, but didn't get any screenies. This was from the testing of the skycranes:

The idea was that a hub would deploy on the surface, then the following vehicle would land, and begin the process of docking the habitat modules to the hub, and repeat...The truss that holds all the hab modules would then deploy to a loose end or spare docking port and unfurl it's 10 gigantor solar panels to power the whole shabang. Obviously this was early testing as you can tell:

I'm guessing I was a week away from anything complete. I've had much better luck building a base on Duna using a common launch vehicle and "skyframe" (patent pending says Dinklestein) system:

SM

[Munarware]

Sweet Base Mullet. I really like that you were thinking about bypass corridors too, and I like your Modded base on Duna. Make me want to rethink my stance on Mods, but I would love to see a cellular base with mods too!

[Munarware]

Also just a quick note, obviously the single cell I've posted doesn't meet the original requirement for 20 hitchhikers yet but hopefully with Phaze3 complete it will. Hit a few snags with testing unfortunately but nothing that will be detrimental to the cellular demonstration. I had a bug on the HDN module where one of the descent modules was slaved to the MK2 foundation can and wouldn't detach, which makes the entire module useless and unfortunately I had already landed two of these on the MUN before the defect was discovered at the KSC. That's what I get for launching without a complete test, and all I had done with this module was verify ADARR compatibility without fully testing the entire construction sequence. Due to this setback I've wasted an entire Munar Day's worth of landings, but the Phaze3 modules have all been debugged of this defect and I have to say I think they are super sweet. At the least I've gotten some valuable landing experience and I also did manage to send 2 Kerbals to my baseCITY with some very luxurious, if somewhat useless accomodations. So not a total loss.