Orbital docking, closing the gap

[Wanderfound]

Well, we're getting a bit more info now. Did you set the docking port as target, and did you use "control from here" on the other one? What kind of docking ports? If they were the inline ones, did you actually open the doors to activate them?

As mentioned before, docking is a process where virtually no one has reported a bug. Ever. Undocking, yes. And I doubt there are that many people that use auto docking tools (the only one I know of is MechJeb and it does an absolutely horrible job at it) or hacking (a total headache, only for special cases; docking manually is much, much easier) in the first place.

I'm glad the Wright brothers, Goddard and Von Braun didn't give up so quickly; we'd still be stuck to the ground.

While Fuzzy's manner certainly justifies the tone of the responses he's getting, there is (or at least was) a known "can't dock" bug: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/78863-FIX-Dock-Undocking-Bug-in-0-23-5?p=1145499&viewfull=1#post1145499

I got hit with it repeatedly in .23, and it was as frustrating as all hell. Spending forty minutes repeatedly attempting to nudge an ungainly jumbo fuel tanker into a space station only to eventually realise that the port is malfunctioning was severely not fun.

I haven't seen it happen since the release of .24, though.

[dbmorpher]

You say that autopilot is for wimps? Do you know how NASA and the ESA and the Russians dock their vehicles so expertly? They use an autopilot.

Also who would you get rid of a game you spent 25 bucks on just because you can't figure out how to do a secondary feature?

[fuzzdemon]

While Fuzzy's manner certainly justifies the tone of the responses he's getting, there is (or at least was) a known "can't dock" bug: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/78863-FIX-Dock-Undocking-Bug-in-0-23-5?p=1145499&viewfull=1#post1145499

I got hit with it repeatedly in .23, and it was as frustrating as all hell. Spending forty minutes repeatedly attempting to nudge an ungainly jumbo fuel tanker into a space station only to eventually realise that the port is malfunctioning was severely not fun.

I haven't seen it happen since the release of .24, though.

Im sorry if my manner isnt good but at least you understand what ive been through, then to be told im to blame, im using 23.5 so I guess this is the problem, I dont like the new restrictive features in 24, I just want to explore space not become an accountant but I respect what they are doing with the game.

Thanks for the link.

[fuzzdemon]

You say that autopilot is for wimps? Do you know how NASA and the ESA and the Russians dock their vehicles so expertly? They use an autopilot.

Also who would you get rid of a game you spent 25 bucks on just because you can't figure out how to do a secondary feature?

Of course they use autopliots and I would probably use one too in real life, but this is a game where the challenge of docking is very rewarding, im not paying 25 quid to watch an autopilot.

I didnt throw it in the bin I just uninstalled it, after a heavy search I couldnt find any answers and couldnt progress with the game so had no choice because docking is quite important.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Vanamonde

[Rich]

I dont like the new restrictive features in 24, I just want to explore space not become an accountant but I respect what they are doing with the game.

You do realise that you can just use sandbox mode?

[Kerbart]

Ive given up until it gets fixed. I understand you think of me as a noob that needs practice but its not the reason why they arnt locking, if that was the reason I wouldnt waste everyones time.

Remember a lot depends on how you describe a problem. If there's not a lot to go on, people will assume the most common causes. In case of docking the wrongly mounted ports, approaching too fast, etc. When you describe a problem, try to include everything that will prevent other people from wasting time and effort in good-natured efforts to help you.

I understand this game is under development but I wanted to ask if this docking will ever get fixed, obviously there must be some bug when you dock bang in the middle and it just bounces off, once is understandable but 42 times is a p*ss take.

Docking usually (as in: nearly always) just works, so mentioning "if this docking will ever get fixed" will immediately trigger well you must be doing SOMETHING wrong. Please note that the information that clarifies that you have experience in docking and that you checked the docking ports is rather sparse (I'll list it out for effect):

• 
  
• 
  

No critique is valid without offering suggestions on how to improve, so here it goes:

• I've tried multiple times (over 40) to dock a part to my space ship, and it bounces of every time
  
• I know how to dock; I've done it many times and assembled a large station with SR docking ports without problem
  
• I checked to make sure that the ports have the right orientation
  
• I'm using "control from here" on the one docking port and set the other docking port as target
  
• Here are screenshots of the two docking ports that don't want to dock
  
• As you can see, there are no other parts that can interfere with the docking

Now you've painted a picture that clearly shows a bug. You've already pre-emptively asked questions that would be asked otherwise (docking port orientation, are the ships colliding elsewhere, do you know how to dock, etc) greatly reducing the amount of communication needed on things that don't matter.

Non verbal communication is hard, and this forum is a great place to learn that (better than the workplace or with the professor who oversees your graduation). Good luck in your future ventures!

[fuzzdemon]

You do realise that you can just use sandbox mode?

Yes but I want to earn my parts. Im not knocking the new version im just saying im not ready for it yet.

[fuzzdemon]

Remember a lot depends on how you describe a problem. If there's not a lot to go on, people will assume the most common causes. In case of docking the wrongly mounted ports, approaching too fast, etc. When you describe a problem, try to include everything that will prevent other people from wasting time and effort in good-natured efforts to help you.

Docking usually (as in: nearly always) just works, so mentioning "if this docking will ever get fixed" will immediately trigger well you must be doing SOMETHING wrong. Please note that the information that clarifies that you have experience in docking and that you checked the docking ports is rather sparse (I'll list it out for effect):

No critique is valid without offering suggestions on how to improve, so here it goes:

• I've tried multiple times (over 40) to dock a part to my space ship, and it bounces of every time
  
• I know how to dock; I've done it many times and assembled a large station with SR docking ports without problem
  
• I checked to make sure that the ports have the right orientation
  
• I'm using "control from here" on the one docking port and set the other docking port as target
  
• Here are screenshots of the two docking ports that don't want to dock
  
• As you can see, there are no other parts that can interfere with the docking
  

Now you've painted a picture that clearly shows a bug. You've already pre-emptively asked questions that would be asked otherwise (docking port orientation, are the ships colliding elsewhere, do you know how to dock, etc) greatly reducing the amount of communication needed on things that don't matter.

Non verbal communication is hard, and this forum is a great place to learn that (better than the workplace or with the professor who oversees your graduation). Good luck in your future ventures!

You're right and im sorry for not being clear in my initial post, I thought that this was a common problem and just wanted to add my own experience without boring people with the same details that others would have already reported but it seems its not an issue everyone has experienced, its understandable people would assume I suck at docking.

Thanks to everyone who has tried to help me here I really appreciate it, its a great game and community.

[Rich]

Yes but I want to earn my parts. Im not knocking the new version im just saying im not ready for it yet.

You could just edit your save file so that you have infinite funds - there are always ways to play how you want to play

[fuzzdemon]

You could just edit your save file so that you have infinite funds - there are always ways to play how you want to play

I did that but found that one of my favourite mods isn't compatible yet, forgot which one it is now. If I cant fix this issue with the bug fix posted I will need to consider moving to 24 but it should work.

[Kerbart]

You're right and im sorry for not being clear in my initial post, I thought that this was a common problem and just wanted to add my own experience without boring people with the same details that others would have already reported but it seems its not an issue everyone has experienced, its understandable people would assume I suck at docking.

Thanks to everyone who has tried to help me here I really appreciate it, its a great game and community.

I hope you're reinstalling the game! There are still a few lessons the be learned here in general:

• Test! Anything that can be tested on the launchpad should be tested (blocked hatches, too short landing gear, rovers, etc). Finding out that something doesn't work was expensive in the past (for invested time) and is now even more expensive in career mode!
  
• Try out design concepts in smaller designs. NASA testcased most Apollo procedures and techniques with the Gemini program and got some valuable lessons out of it. If your assembly depends on side-port docking, try it out small scale first. (A) you'll discover a lot of hurdles you didn't think of and ( you'll know if what you want is possible or not*
  
• Screenshot the crap out of everything, especially when you're encountering errors. It helps to prove it's a new bug and we'll all be impressed. Or you goofed up and we'll all have a good laugh And trust me I prefer the "dude you #### up" option because that I can (usually) fix, rather than "yeah that's a known bug, it doesn't work"
  
• As in the real world, sometimes things should work but they don't. Welcome to the wonderful world of engineering. Deal with it. Find another way to make it happen.

[Sirrobert]

so say I'm in Kerbin orbit, and I want to get in solar orbit ---- but clockwise, that is, opposite the direction most of the planets are traveling. What should be my approach?

And speaking of solar orbits.... when you're in orbits that last hundreds of days, burning exactly at apoapsis probably isn't that important, it's more forgiving of mistakes. Is going at full throttle a mistake? Should I be starting earlier and just going at a fraction of full throttle, is that going to be more fuel-conserving?

Wow your topic got expertly burried under useless discussion.

On to the actual questions from the OP:

If you want to get in a retrograde solar orbit, you are going to need ALOT of fuel.

Kerbin has an orbital velocity of 9284m/s (and since you are at the same solar altitude as Kerbin, so do your rockets).

In order to get into a retrograde solar orbit, you'll need to cancel that, and than match it in the opposite direction. So you'll need 20km/s deltaV AFTER you got in orbit (getting to orbit costs 4500m/s deltaV). Now you can probably shave a few kilometers/s off of this by doing some tricks with the oberth effect, but the point is it's going to cost alot of fuel.

Now to go there: You'll want to start in the same way you do when you try to go to an inner planet, or simply a lower solar orbit. Burn retrograde (solar orbit retrograde, not Kerbin orbit).

Go to map mode and zoom out, so you can see Kerbin's orbit. Observe which way is retrograde for Kerbin, that's the direction you want to eject yourself from Kerbin's SOI. Asuming you are in an equatorial, prograde orbit around Kerbin, make a manouver node somewhere near 270 degrees and burn prograde ( Picture for illustration. I don't have anything in Kerbin Orbit atm so this will have to do ).

Just place a node, pull it out until the projected new orbit is basicly a straight line, and move the node until that line lines up with Kerbin's orbit.

Now if you zoom out on the map view, you'll see that your new Solar orbit has a lower Periaps. If you'd burn a full 20000m/s deltaV at this point, you'd end up in a retrograde Solar orbit.

You can save some fuel if you first drop your periaps down low (say, less than a million KM). Than at this Periaps, burn out to a very high Apoaps.

The higher your apoaps, the cheaper it'll be to reverse your orbital velocity (because you are going slower. Less velocity to cancel out). This would however take a LONG time to get out to such a high apoaps, and solar panels don't work very well at higher solar altitudes.

Regarding docking in Solar orbits: Yes, you can be way less precise in these scenarios. An encounter of several hundred kilometers is already pritty close at those scales (offcourse, the closer the better still counts). So first get this close, and than start closing the distance by burning towards the target

Good luck

[fuzzdemon]

Wow your topic got expertly burried under useless discussion.

On to the actual questions from the OP:

If you want to get in a retrograde solar orbit, you are going to need ALOT of fuel.

Kerbin has an orbital velocity of 9284m/s (and since you are at the same solar altitude as Kerbin, so do your rockets).

In order to get into a retrograde solar orbit, you'll need to cancel that, and than match it in the opposite direction. So you'll need 20km/s deltaV AFTER you got in orbit (getting to orbit costs 4500m/s deltaV). Now you can probably shave a few kilometers/s off of this by doing some tricks with the oberth effect, but the point is it's going to cost alot of fuel.

Now to go there: You'll want to start in the same way you do when you try to go to an inner planet, or simply a lower solar orbit. Burn retrograde (solar orbit retrograde, not Kerbin orbit).

Go to map mode and zoom out, so you can see Kerbin's orbit. Observe which way is retrograde for Kerbin, that's the direction you want to eject yourself from Kerbin's SOI. Asuming you are in an equatorial, prograde orbit around Kerbin, make a manouver node somewhere near 270 degrees and burn prograde ( Picture for illustration. I don't have anything in Kerbin Orbit atm so this will have to do ).

Just place a node, pull it out until the projected new orbit is basicly a straight line, and move the node until that line lines up with Kerbin's orbit.

Now if you zoom out on the map view, you'll see that your new Solar orbit has a lower Periaps. If you'd burn a full 20000m/s deltaV at this point, you'd end up in a retrograde Solar orbit.

You can save some fuel if you first drop your periaps down low (say, less than a million KM). Than at this Periaps, burn out to a very high Apoaps.

The higher your apoaps, the cheaper it'll be to reverse your orbital velocity (because you are going slower. Less velocity to cancel out). This would however take a LONG time to get out to such a high apoaps, and solar panels don't work very well at higher solar altitudes.

Regarding docking in Solar orbits: Yes, you can be way less precise in these scenarios. An encounter of several hundred kilometers is already pritty close at those scales (offcourse, the closer the better still counts). So first get this close, and than start closing the distance by burning towards the target

Good luck

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I must say im surprised to see you describe a bug fix as "useless discussion".

[fuzzdemon]

I hope you're reinstalling the game! There are still a few lessons the be learned here in general:

• Test! Anything that can be tested on the launchpad should be tested (blocked hatches, too short landing gear, rovers, etc). Finding out that something doesn't work was expensive in the past (for invested time) and is now even more expensive in career mode!
  
• Try out design concepts in smaller designs. NASA testcased most Apollo procedures and techniques with the Gemini program and got some valuable lessons out of it. If your assembly depends on side-port docking, try it out small scale first. (A) you'll discover a lot of hurdles you didn't think of and ( you'll know if what you want is possible or not*
  
• Screenshot the crap out of everything, especially when you're encountering errors. It helps to prove it's a new bug and we'll all be impressed. Or you goofed up and we'll all have a good laugh And trust me I prefer the "dude you #### up" option because that I can (usually) fix, rather than "yeah that's a known bug, it doesn't work"
  
• As in the real world, sometimes things should work but they don't. Welcome to the wonderful world of engineering. Deal with it. Find another way to make it happen.
  

Yea ive installed it again, as I said ive been able to dock with these ports and in this configuration before so I was convinced it was a bug but thankfully someone posted a fix. Thanks for the tips.

[micha]

Yes but I want to earn my parts. Im not knocking the new version im just saying im not ready for it yet.

Slightly off-topic, but :

0.24 has 3 modes:

1. Sandbox

2. Science (this is the 0.23 "Career" mode)

3. Career Mode (This is with Science and Funds)

So really the only reason not to upgrade would be because a mod you're using hasn't been updated yet.

Also, you can just take a copy of your entire game directory and rename it to "KSP 0.23" and then download the new one - gives you the option to play either.

[fuzzdemon]

Slightly off-topic, but :

0.24 has 3 modes:

1. Sandbox

2. Science (this is the 0.23 "Career" mode)

3. Career Mode (This is with Science and Funds)

So really the only reason not to upgrade would be because a mod you're using hasn't been updated yet.

Also, you can just take a copy of your entire game directory and rename it to "KSP 0.23" and then download the new one - gives you the option to play either.

Thanks I didnt know about number 2. Ive installed the latest version and found an update for the mod, time to test the docking.

[Seret]

Perhaps you could post up your craft file and let some other people try and reproduce your problem fuzzdemon. A bug that can be reproduced is far more likely to get fixed.

[fuzzdemon]

While Fuzzy's manner certainly justifies the tone of the responses he's getting, there is (or at least was) a known "can't dock" bug: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/78863-FIX-Dock-Undocking-Bug-in-0-23-5?p=1145499&viewfull=1#post1145499

I got hit with it repeatedly in .23, and it was as frustrating as all hell. Spending forty minutes repeatedly attempting to nudge an ungainly jumbo fuel tanker into a space station only to eventually realise that the port is malfunctioning was severely not fun.

I haven't seen it happen since the release of .24, though.

I installed 24 and docked first time no probs, thanks very much for your help.

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps you could post up your craft file and let some other people try and reproduce your problem fuzzdemon. A bug that can be reproduced is far more likely to get fixed.

Thank but its been solved, see above post.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h165/Hail_Odin/1d_zpsa31b32a6.jpg

Edited August 4, 2014 by fuzzdemon

[Algomeysa]

If you want to get in a retrograde solar orbit, you are going to need ALOT of fuel.

My ultimate goal is to skim a Kerbal over the Sun here at about 2 kilometers, right above where he'll vaporize at 1.3 kilometers.

I was hoping maybe there was some way I could slingshot around Mun into solar retrograde....

It's going to take a lot of fuel in any case even without solar retrograde; I placed a refueling tanker between Kerbin and Eve, but after refueling so far the closest I can is 1.1 million kilometers to the Sun.

so, a little off topic, but, for the first time, I'm trying to move a Kerbal between what's more or less the command module and the LEM. I see that apparently I can only do this EVA, but, as soon as I hit space to let go and then hit R so I can EVA, I'm almost instantly too far away from the ship to ever get back again. Is there some trick to this?

[Seret]

Using the jetpack on EVA takes a bit of practice, but it's pretty nippy. You shouldn't need to give it too much thrust to get back to your ship.

[Algomeysa]

Using the jetpack on EVA takes a bit of practice, but it's pretty nippy. You shouldn't need to give it too much thrust to get back to your ship.

Ok, that time I did manage to get into the other module while on jetpack EVA.

Possibly because I turned on CAPS LOCK for fine-tuning ---- although it's hard to say, like a lot of things in Kerbal, I'll assume that the CAPS LOCK fine-tuning affects the EVA controls, but that might be an erroneous assumption.

[Seret]

Cool, glad you nailed it. First few times I tried it my main problem on EVA was going too fast. You've got to treat it like docking. Go slowly and just give tiny puffs of thrust.

[Sirrobert]

My ultimate goal is to skim a Kerbal over the Sun here at about 2 kilometers, right above where he'll vaporize at 1.3 kilometers.

I was hoping maybe there was some way I could slingshot around Mun into solar retrograde....

It's going to take a lot of fuel in any case even without solar retrograde; I placed a refueling tanker between Kerbin and Eve, but after refueling so far the closest I can is 1.1 million kilometers to the Sun.

so, a little off topic, but, for the first time, I'm trying to move a Kerbal between what's more or less the command module and the LEM. I see that apparently I can only do this EVA, but, as soon as I hit space to let go and then hit R so I can EVA, I'm almost instantly too far away from the ship to ever get back again. Is there some trick to this?

Same thing about saving fuel for getting retrograde also applies if you just want to get low Solar Orbit.

First burn out at periaps, and than at apoaps, slow down. It'll save fuel if you do it further away.

As for EVA: unles you have some bug that launches Kerbals away when you let go of the ladder (they should just gently float away), all it takes is practice. Quicksave before you let go, and than try to fly around the rocket a few times.

[Lheim]

My ultimate goal is to skim a Kerbal over the Sun here at about 2 kilometers, right above where he'll vaporize at 1.3 kilometers.

I was hoping maybe there was some way I could slingshot around Mun into solar retrograde....

It's going to take a lot of fuel in any case even without solar retrograde; I placed a refueling tanker between Kerbin and Eve, but after refueling so far the closest I can is 1.1 million kilometers to the Sun.

so, a little off topic, but, for the first time, I'm trying to move a Kerbal between what's more or less the command module and the LEM. I see that apparently I can only do this EVA, but, as soon as I hit space to let go and then hit R so I can EVA, I'm almost instantly too far away from the ship to ever get back again. Is there some trick to this?

Kerbin does have an orbital velocity relative to the sun of about 9 kilometers per second - no slingshot around the moon is going to negate that all.

You might consider the maneuver Nasa used - a gravity assist off a gas giant. So much higher in orbit of the sun, your velocity will be significantly lower - and the gas giant can essentially stop you in relation to the sun, leading to that very tight encounter you want.

In regard to EVA - small taps work best. Do NOT hold down the directional keys.

[Algomeysa]

ok, so, I've successfully docked with a refueling tanker, I've taken on fuel, I undock --- in this case, I'm in a orbit closer to the Sun than Eve, around 8.3 million kilometers from the Sun ----and a strange thing happens. I seem to be stuck in orbit. As in, I'm no longer orbiting. Apoapsis is 52 days away, and even when I speed things up 100,000 times or whatever, it never gets any closer ---- although the planets are revolving in their orbits as they should.

It's as if the program has gotten confused that I am an orbiting object, and it just makes me a fixed object in the orbit, unmoving. What the heck is going on?