[Brainstorming] Interactive science and dynamic environment development

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

I'm sure plenty of players have come across this in their gameplay at some point. But you download tons of mods, with really nice parts, fancy names and opportunities to get science.

But then you finish building your extremely fancy probe, launch it to the destination you want, and you milk those science points and transmit them home...

...And your probe is now an expensive hunk of metal and doohickies that do nothing further useful. Might as well delete it.

Or you've earned enough science to unlock your entire tech tree. What point is there to earning science now? Suddenly most of the instruments you've earned are worthless, and criteria for building sophisticated platforms to get The Job done fall off.

So you run into the age old question, time and again:

'What now?'

Sure, there are plenty of contracts you could complete, stations and bases to build, and Kerbals to ferry about... But by the time you hit the end of your tech tree the contracts dump money in your lap like water, and you could ferry kerbals about and build elaborate bases in sandbox mode until the end of time. (Or such time as the electric company cuts the power.)

What I would like to do in this thread is gather the modders together to discuss how to make science gathering in and of itself not only more interactive for the player, but have the scientific data actually mean something within' the confines of the game. I would like to emphasize this thread is for brain storming. As a disclaimer I personally have only fundamental coding skills and little free time to dedicate to learning the code base for the game in detail, but I can easily put ideas and concepts to text and can design systems clearly and intuitively. In short, don't expect me to code.

I would like to express the specific goals of this brainstorming thread:

1: Develop concepts for 'interactive' science gathering.

To summarize, current science gathering is simply slap an animated 3D model on your simulated rocket, fly to destination, click button, read funny text, click blue button, get points. I would like to find ways to take both existing and new experiments, and treat them like mini-games in themselves. There should be something for a player to do. Either by requiring player interaction to perform an experiment, or making the data of that experiment useful to the player instead of just funny comments that get old after a few reads.

A prime example of such a mini-game-esque operation is the CactEye telescope mod. In which the player actually has to operate, aim, and snap photos of the bodies around Kerbin to earn science. A single run of the FungEye telescope was actually entertaining, and took some thought to accomplish, along with about half an hour of in-flight operations to complete. That's half an hour of entertaining work, vs thirty seconds of click, read, transmit.

2: Develop systems to utilize, graph, or categorize science data.

As it stands, when we gather 'science', the instrument lights up, does its dance, and pops up a funny message. After which it is of no further use. We are just farming points. I would like to come up with actual player applicable systems for which taking these readings are part of applying the information to rocket design and/or operation. Some mods already incorporate some of this. ScanSAT makes maps, resource mods like Kethane or ORS find usable pockets of materials players use in rockets. Interstellar has a magnetometer you can actually read data from to hunt for antimatter. But I'd like to see more application. Instead of funny words about everything in the Kerbol System, the player would have data to collect.

3: Extend the use of information gathering beyond 'first pass' collection.

As a simple example, Scansat allows the player to map a planet out. But once the planet is mapped, then what? This is 'first pass' data collection. Once you've collected the data, you're done there. Of what further use is this equipment to the player?

I have an example idea that involves Environmental Visual Enhancements that could simulate consequential weather conditions of multiple intensities on Kerbin for a player. If Scansat were tied to such a mod were it to come about, I could easily see the development of 'Near-Infrared sensors' that track the cloud layers (and thus, the 'storms') in real time. The result would be an information gathering system that the player can actually consult that has consequences to the gameplay that are dynamic, adding to the importance of keeping science equipment in place after the initial 'point collection' is complete.

4: Utilize science points in post tech-tree.

Even with the mini-games and dynamics, once the player unlocks the final node of the tech tree, they are still faced with the issue of 'what now?' They may have leftover points, or more places to explore, but nothing to really do with that science except collect it. Thoughts on how these points, which are treated as a currency, could be spent in addition to unlocking tech nodes.

Each of these goals is focused on making more use and fun of the scientific instrumentation. I'd like to give players the ability to actually DO science by giving them data to make evaluations with, instead of just awarding them points and stagnant comical text for pushing a button when they're rocket is in the right place. There would definitely be bonus points in any concept that actually allows us to teach players how an actual instrument does its job, and what actual scientists might do with that data.

What systems could we develop, and what instrumentation would go with it to increase this immersion building?

Now, before I conclude this OP, I must point out some caveats to consider.

- Complexity should not be feared. A well-built interface and intuitive system can overcome complexity issues.

- 'Useful, but not essential' should be considered on any given idea. Mainly because we don't want to get stuck handing players tedium.

- Time consumption should be proportional to task complexity and immersion. Again, we want to avoid handing players tedious tasks. If we build a mini-game into a science experiment, we don't want to leave the player stuck treating the task like a repetitive chore. An example is the current version of the L-tech camera experiment (take photo). Which gives you one point of science in orbit around kerbin, but allows you to repeat the 'experiment' nearly a hundred times before it runs down.

So what can others think of and propose in this discussion? We're just talking and brainstorming for now, so don't be afraid to propose, ask for, or otherwise air your ideas out here.

[xEvilReeperx]

I've been kicking ideas around for the "interactive science" bit, like experiment minigames of smashing open rocks or using a microscope to examine a soil sample that are somewhat based on how the real thing would be done. I wasn't going to take it quite as far as you have though.

The apparent lack of interest is worrisome though. Maybe I'll write a rough prototype and see what kind of feedback that gets before I invest a bunch of effort in the project

[BlazingAngel665]

I would enjoy all of these projects thoroughly. For science, I was thinking graph each reading on a chart. Have a regression generate based on each of the points, then based upon the accuracy by which the regression fits the expected answer you receive science points. This way you will never receive 0 points, but as you fill out the chart with more diverse measurements in different scenarios, the payouts will decrease. I also like the idea of mini-games for science.

[Wanderfound]

I'd be keen.

If you can, chat to some real scientists for ideas. Drop Bobak a line...

[westamastaflash]

I like what Kerbal Construction Time does - you can use science to upgrade your base to improve ship building speed.

Also, perhaps you have lucrative contracts for interesting goals, but they cost *negative* science to accept - essentially this contract is only available if you spend some science points. Large-scale contracts to build a big MKS orbital station would require a big capital investment by the contractor, and scientific knowledge by the space program.

Parts would have to cost more, or perhaps speciality colonization parts even only be made available if you are currently performing a base-building/base-upgrading contract?

[ixolate industries]

A suggestion for the left over science points could be that you could spend them on parts already unlocked to improve the main aspect of an engine Ie for mainsail you would improve thrust whereas for nuke it would be efficiency, fuel tanks could become stronger, solar panels more productive ect. Just a though.

[MinimumSky5]

A suggestion for the left over science points could be that you could spend them on parts already unlocked to improve the main aspect of an engine Ie for mainsail you would improve thrust whereas for nuke it would be efficiency, fuel tanks could become stronger, solar panels more productive ect. Just a though.

Interstellar already had this, where you put a lab into orbit, which then creates "research point", that were separate from normal science points. Those research points could then be used to upgrade parts that are in flight . Unfortunately, that feature got nerfed a few updates back, so now parts are upgraded as you unlock the tech tree.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Starting with goal one, I would probably start breaking experiment types into catagories.

Something along the lines of:

- Remote Observation

Which covers things like telescopes and celestial spectrographs...

- Local Observation

Which covers methods of instrumentation that require the instruments to actually be in the sphere of influence or in the space realm being observed. Instruments including particle detectors, Magnetometers, Magnetic Anomaly Detectors, and so on.

This category would also need a sub-category for passive and active instruments. Differentiating between things like M.A.D.s and something like ground penetrating radar.

- Direct Interaction

Which covers methods of instrumentation that require the instrument to actually come into contact with, and sample the environment. Gas and liquid need collection and storage. Rocks needs to be picked up or lased. Soil samples need to be scooped up, core drills need to push pas the impossible and pierce the... ground.

I'd think each category and sub-category need an applicable style of 'mini game' to be applied to the process. The 'minigames', I think would work best for players if they are seamless from normal gameplay. That is to say, the player doesn't get a distinct FEELING they activated a mini game. They Just roll into operating the instrument like controlling the spacecraft itself. Remote Observation already has a pretty decent example, again, with CactEye. You activate it, do some aiming, making sure not to point it at the sun, and snap a photo. (I think the interface could be expanded with the application of infrared, Xray, and other spectrums. And even 'interstellar' medium created that could have random space events like distant supernovae and pulsars and such dynamically generated and observed much like random asteroids. But that is beyond the scope of the current post. Feel free to brainstorm on it anyway.)

But other catagories need a different approach. Data gathering from a magnetometer, for example, is pretty simple, just stick it somewhere and let it fly. But that's boring. I would think the inclusion of a graphing operation over a set period of time would make for interesting play, if the player got science, not simply by checking the reading, but by picking anomalies out on the graph. (Click and drag highlighting a range, then clicking 'Xmit' and it would award the player points based on magnitude and slope.) In this manner, if you were to say, map the magnetic field of kerbin and then make the field intensities vary, or just gank KSPI's magnetic field. The inclination and orbit of the player's probe could be utilized to generate different graphs. (A highly elliptical orbit at the equator generates a graph with a gradual slope as it plunges in to low altitude, allowing the player to 'map' the magnetic field's intensity and size. A polar orbit would allow the player to discover the magnetic poles of the field.) Using a realistic magnetic field shape would then require the player to use a number of non-standard orbital positions as well as keep the probe in position for at least a complete orbital pass to generate a graph that they can take a data sweep from.

In this manner, the operation of the magnetometer is interactive. Not just point-and-click. Other passive instruments, even the barometer and thermometer could have a similar mechanic, but with additional traits, see below.

Direct Interaction would be the most involved, as the instrumentation actually requires direct contact.

A few ideas for using this instrumentation include having to take multiple samples from an area near the initial sample, not just repeating at the same spot over and over. (With the player having to travel a minimum distance to get the next sample, or the 'Diversity Value' of the sample is just too low.) I'm also thinking that sampling experiments would require the player to utilize some kind of chemistry set interface, but I'm fuzzy on how to keep that simple but fun.

As for passive instruments like thermometers and barometers. They could work like the mentioned magnetometer. But with diverse surface maps set up instead of just 'biome' mapping.

Other ideas include gas analysis that identifies any stratification of the atmosphere, like say, if Karbonite is involved, you can actually identify an altitude layer that's rich and find an optimum altitude. Real fuzzy on that, throw some expansions on it.

Once minigames are established, ways make the data worth holding and the experiments repeating over time as per goals 2-3 can be thought up.

[Sonicfan315]

It could be a rather fun from a gameplay perspective, namely it encourages the player to build a variety of different rockets, planes, and even ground craft. It could also provide a fun challenge trying to get a drilling platform off the ground, and onto the Mun or Eve.