[0.23.5] Research Order and Science Acquisition Questions

[Bolter]

Howdy folks,

I just picked KSP on Steam, and I'm playing in career mode. I'm avoiding 0.24 for the time being, as I don't want to pay for the rocket parts until I have a better handle on design efficiency.

I've pretty much exhausted the science you can get in Kerbal, Minmus and the Mun (landing mini/goo at most biomes.) I'm left with having to look towards interplanetary missions without having nuclear engines yet.

I think I may have made a mistake in prioritizing my research. I went mostly for science producers like the mini, thermometer, barometer and seismometer. I'm finding out, though, that the barometer and thermometer don't produce a lot of science in near Kerbal space. I'm regretting researching that way instead of going towards nuclear engines first.

My question is how do you guys prioritize your research with an eye towards maximizing science acquisition?

Also, can I mount unmanned exploration missions to the planets without nuclear engines, so I can salvage my career?

Thanks for any help,

Bolter

Edited August 5, 2014 by Bolter

[NecroBones]

No reason to avoid 0.24, you can still do a science-only (no money) career in 0.24 as a "science sandbox".

But to answer your question, actually what I do is similar to what you described. I try to get the science instruments first, so that I can maximize the science yield from every mission. The truth is, you can complete the entire tech tree without leaving the Kerbin/Mun/Minmus area. The trick is to be thorough, and how to do so is not exactly obvious when you get started.

Some points that will help you extract all the science: (a lot of this you probably know already)

• Each science instrument can have one result (stored data) in it at a time, but you can pull that data out with an EVA, and store it in your command pod. You can only store one sample of each type in any given command pod (no exact duplicates), but you can use the experiment over and over again (except the goo canister and science jr. materials bay, both of which can also be re-used, but only when attached to a science lab). As a result, you'll want to do EVAs to get your science and put it in the command pod, and use the experiments again, in another location.
  
• You can get science from the surface, atmosphere, low orbit, and high orbit at each location. Splashed down on Kerbin is another separate location.
  
• Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus have multiple biomes, which count as separate science locations. Some instruments can use the biomes as separate locations while over them in low orbit, etc.
  
• You can take more than one of each experiment with you, and use the extra instruments to hold additional copies of data. That is, let's say you have two thermometers. Take two readings on the surface, store on in the pod, and leave the other thermometer alone. You'll get a little more of the science total available in that location.
  
• You get a lot more science for taking the data back to Kerbin for recovery than by transmitting. You can also get samples from the same location more than once, with diminishing returns.
  
• You can do an EVA report in each location (landed, space, etc).
  
• You can take a soil sample landed in each biome.
  
• You can do a crew report in each place as well. This makes the command pod act like an experiment. You can store crew reports from multiple locations by getting out, pulling the data from it (as if it were an experiment), and then getting back in, which moves it to the data storage.
  

I used to routinely bring back around 500 science from each moon landing, and filled out my tech tree by flying those missions over and over again. But at the time, I forgot about getting low-altitude space data, and didn't know that you could store more than one crew report by pulling them out of the pod and sticking them back in.

If you make an effort to land all over the moons with all of the instruments (particularly the seismometer and gravioli detector), you can get ridiculous amounts of science.

If you do biome-hopping with the landers (say, visit 3 or 4 biomes with every mission), you can bring back science in the 4 digits each time.

And yes, the nuclear engines aren't required for everything. In fact, Duna and Eve are easy to get to with one-way probes. The delta-V requirements aren't much more than visiting Minmus, considering you can aerobrake into orbit at the other end.

Edited August 5, 2014 by NecroBones

[juanml82]

The thing is, the gravity thing can measure different biomes in space. What I mean is: the thermometer or the goo get one experiment called "at space high at the Mun". The gravioly thing gets "at space high at the Mun poles", "at space high at the Mun Far East Crater" and so on. OTOH The barometers end up less useful since, initially, they can only be used at Kerbin, where research doesn't yield too much science.

There is also a mod called KSP Science Library which let's you see what science you are missing and you can get. So, for instance, you go to the Mun in a manned pod with a gravioly thingy. As you warp to your destination, the mod will show you when you can get "EVA space high above Kerbin's Mountains" and the same for the Gravioli, so you'll be able to notice and harvest a lot of science on the way.

There is also another mission profile you can use - I'm not sure if it's cost efficient in 0.24, but you aren't going by costs.

You send a space station to Minmus containing the left over fuel tanks for getting there, a docking port and a Mobile Lab (the big heavy one). You send a lander to Minmus with all the science equipment. You pick all the science in a biome, go to the space station, you store all the science in the Mobile Lab and you use it to reset the Science Jr lab and the goo canisters. Refuel and hop back to a different biome. Since you might have gotten the "at space low over Minmus biome" while in orbit, you might use your lander to hop through a few biomes before RV, provided you equip it with two or three Science Jr. and Goo canisters.

The Mobile Lab will quickly accumulate several dozen experiments, and can do two things. First, you'll probably need to send a tanker to refuel it, unless you're playing with the kethane mod (and in that case, you're sending the tanker from Minmus instead of Kerbin). Second, while your lander keeps hoping through the biomes, you can send a cheap manned ship to RV with the station (it's probably faster and more cost effective to send it along with some of the larger ships). You don't actually need to dock it. Just park it close by, EVA your newly arrived kerbal to the Mobile Lab, take all the experiments, hop back to your small ship and head back to Kerbin with all the experiments.

That way, you'll be retrieving all the science while your lander still keeps jumping all over Minmus biomes. Once you're done, you can repeat the same at the Mun. You'll soon max the science tree that way.

Also, don't forget that you can reach "Space high above the Sun" long before you get a transfer window to another planet. Send a ship into an escape orbit from Kerbin, once you've exited Kerbin's SOI do all the science and head back home.

[Pecan]

I applaud your desire to concentrate on design efficiency so switch to sandbox and save your sanity! Instead of grinding for science to get through the non-sensical tech-tree get to know the different parts, what they're for and how they compare to each other. Start with small, simple ships and make them more complex as you go further and need to do more. Follow a logical sequence of missions (e.g.; not starting with big, heavy, manned rockets) and the different capabilities and stats of similar parts start to make sense.

Tutorial in the signature. *Grin* NecroBones' videos will help too.

Meanwhile - having got to Mun and Minmus, you're obviously doing well :-)

[Sirrobert]

You don't need nuclear engines to go out to other planets.

Do you know how to dock? If you do, it because WAY easier. Just launch your interplanetery rocket in parts (transfer stage, lander, and than a few launches to refuel the entire thing).

This way you can easely make your rocket as big as you need to go anywhere.

If you're unsure, send a probe to Duna first. You actually need more deltaV to land at the Mun and return than you need for a one way trip to Duna

[Eric S]

I've pretty much exhausted the science you can get in Kerbal, Minmus and the Mun (landing mini/goo at most biomes.) I'm left with having to look towards interplanetary missions without having nuclear engines yet.

You can finish science in just those three locations, so you haven't exhausted the science there. Push on for the negative gravioli detector, it's great for science in orbit as well as landed.

Thinks to make sure you get:

Crew Reports: Not biome-specific in orbit and not huge amounts of science, but it's science and you're there anyway.

EVA reports: Biome-specific at low orbit and on the surface, so that's 31 science reports just from the Mun and another 19 from Minmus.

Surface samples: Huge per-biome science rewards, this alone would bring a few thousand science from the Mun, and a few more from Minmus. This is the reason to go to the Mun and Minmus, the other stuff kind of falls into "as long as I'm here."

Thermometer/Goo/Science Jr: again, not biome-specific except on the surface.

Seismometer: Only works on the surface, but a nice amount of science, at least.

Negative Gravioli Detector: Biome-specific at both high and low orbit altitudes, on top of being biome-specific at the surface. Second only to surface samples. If there's a science part that is OP, it's this one.

Atmospheric Analysis/Barometer: Mostly only useful around Kerbin, but make sure you have them attached if you drop a probe on Eve. Also useful at Duna.

At 15 Mun biomes and 9 Minmus biomes, that's a lot of work, but it will max out your tech tree.

Also note that you'll probably want to EVA a kerbal to extract the reports from parts. This lets you repeat experiments at different altitudes or different biomes but still return the results for full science value without needing one part per biome. Note that you're still limited to one experiment per Goo/Sci Jr. as they are disabled by taking the results.

My question is how do you guys prioritize your research with an eye towards maximizing science acquisition?

Same way you do. I prioritize solar panels, then science parts. I don't even get 2.5m engines until I've got the negative gravioli detector. I suspect that I just know the science system a bit better, including the exploitable corners.

Also, can I mount unmanned exploration missions to the planets without nuclear engines, so I can salvage my career?

A manned mission to Duna (orbit Duna, land on Ike) takes about the same amount of delta-v as landing and returning from the Mun, so that's definitely possible. Landing on Duna doesn't take too much more. You can also do the same to Eve, though don't do a manned landing there. Unmanned missions to Dres and Jool are feasible without the atomic motor, and I suspect that Eeloo is as well, though I've never gone there in career mode without the atomic motor.

[Bolter]

Thanks for all the helpful replies folks!

No kidding about the number of biomes on Mun and Minmus. I thought that there were only a handful on each, but evidently there's like 30 of them ;b

Yes, I've been transmitting the high/low/surface/eva reports, as well as taking surface samples. What I'm not able to do, though, is take the reports out of the instruments and into the crew capsule. I remember seeing it done in some of the video tutorials, but when I try I get "this sample does not fit in the capsule" for the mini and goo. Is it a 23.5 thing or am I doing something wrong?

I'll definitively try to send missions to the planets with lower dV requirement, but I'm 50 days into the career, and no planets are anywhere close to where they need to be for Hohmann transfers. I'll keep an eye on them while I keep milking the Mun and Minmus.

I have one more question about seismometers. Do they work on their own, or do I have to land them at a spot and then slam something into the surface to get data? I just unlocked them last night, and I want to make sure I take junk to drop if theyre needed.

Thank you for all the thoughtful and friendly answers. This community is amazing. Any other game forum and Godwin's law would have been in effect by now ;b

Bolter

[Sirrobert]

Thanks for all the helpful replies folks!

No kidding about the number of biomes on Mun and Minmus. I thought that there were only a handful on each, but evidently there's like 30 of them ;b

Yes, I've been transmitting the high/low/surface/eva reports, as well as taking surface samples. What I'm not able to do, though, is take the reports out of the instruments and into the crew capsule. I remember seeing it done in some of the video tutorials, but when I try I get "this sample does not fit in the capsule" for the mini and goo. Is it a 23.5 thing or am I doing something wrong?

I'll definitively try to send missions to the planets with lower dV requirement, but I'm 50 days into the career, and no planets are anywhere close to where they need to be for Hohmann transfers. I'll keep an eye on them while I keep milking the Mun and Minmus.

I have one more question about seismometers. Do they work on their own, or do I have to land them at a spot and then slam something into the surface to get data? I just unlocked them last night, and I want to make sure I take junk to drop if theyre needed.

Thank you for all the thoughtful and friendly answers. This community is amazing. Any other game forum and Godwin's law would have been in effect by now ;b

Bolter

Goo results definitly should be able to fit in the capsule just fine.

How exactly do you extract the results? Might be some step you're missing or something.

Also don't forget you can't get all science by just transmitting. You need to bring the experiments back and recover them if you want all the science. You can either do this by putting them in the capsule, or just bring the entire science part back. Just remember that the material's bay is fragile, so don't try to land ontop of it, even with a parachute (use lander legs). Though that's hardly a problem if you use a single stage Mun lander/return craft

As for other planets, it's actually still perfectly possible to do a transfer even if it's not perfect launch window, it's not even that much more expencive.

You can use this site to calculate how and when exactly, and this guide explains the details behind it.

Seismometer works just like all other science parts. It's to measure seismic activity from the body itself, not from what you crash into it

[Specialist290]

Welcome to the forums!

In addition to some of the recommendations that other users have already made, you may want to take a look at bigalqd's Beginner Science tutorial, which is essentially a comprehensive series that walks you through a sequence of missions to progressively unlock the entire tech tree in an efficient manner. You don't have to follow his profile perfectly as such, but it might make for a handy reference as you progress up the tech tree yourself.

Also, in general, feel free to refer to any of the tutorials that I've listed in the Drawing Board (conveniently linked through my signature) for anything you may need help with, whether it's a design or a piloting issue. And as always, we're more than willing to answer any specific questions you may have as you encounter new situations.

Hope this helps!

[Bolter]

Thanks for all the help!

Bolter