Kerbodyne SSTO Division: Omnibus Thread

[Wanderfound]

...I asked if I could use a single flap setting to deflect downward, so I can activate it for landing. until I include a NERVA, I'm not goting to be worried about landing on Laythe, so I really dont care about airbreaks yet.

It didnt sound like you answered my question.

Yes, you can set a control surface to have a static pitch in one direction, but a toggleable deflection to the other direction. Angle it up while building, and set a flap or spoiler going the other way for landing. If you're unsure of if you've got it set right, run a FAR analysis with either the flaps or spoilers turned on in the analysis; the surfaces will deflect as you run the analysis, allowing you to see if you've got it right.

Airbrakes are useful on Kerbin (they allow you to shorten reentry), but they aren't necessary. Similarly, the flexibility offered by opposing deflections is useful but not compulsory.

[Somtaaw]

Goodspeed. Like TAC-FB, but better.

Goodspeed allows you to set every tank with a "pump level" between one and eight. If they're set to auto-pump, then fuel will automatically flow "downhill" towards the tanks with lower pump levels.

This is brilliant for orbital refuelling; set the refuelling station to five, your fuel delivery tankers to six and your normal craft to four. As soon as you dock, fuel will start to flow from the tankers to the station or the station to the non-tankers. You can set the pump levels of tanks individually, so you can also use this to control fuel flow within a single ship.

It's by no means compulsory, but it's very nice. And it's another of those tiny utility mods that take next to zero RAM and are unlikely to cause crashes. The right-click options are like the FAR control surface tweakables; if you design a craft with the mod, then load it without the mod, all that happens is that the special fuel pumping options no longer appear.

Just about to snag this mod too since so far what you've recommended has been spot on. Was the OOPS mk 3K saved with goodspeed fuel balancing in addition to the expert fuel lines, or just the fuel lines?

Additionally, have you considered updating the OP to include a list of mods that you believe are required, and then a list of highly recommended for SSTO pilots, both new and experienced.

[Wanderfound]

Just about to snag this mod too since so far what you've recommended has been spot on. Was the OOPS mk 3K saved with goodspeed fuel balancing in addition to the expert fuel lines, or just the fuel lines?

Additionally, have you considered updating the OP to include a list of mods that you believe are required, and then a list of highly recommended for SSTO pilots, both new and experienced.

Nothing posted here requires Goodspeed; I like to keep the public designs as stock as possible.

I primarily use Goodspeed (and TAC-FB in the past) just to automate tedious things like orbital station fuel transfers. I also tend to use it for the RCS tanks of probe/rover payloads, to make sure that I don't accidentally undock them with half-empty tanks. I may have done that on OOPS Mk3K, but it does no harm to the design if the mod isn't there; it just means you need to refuel them manually.

Using the ability to balance fuel within a ship makes fuel lines obsolete, so I tend not to use Goodspeed or TAC-FB for that purpose because it feels a tiny bit cheaty to me [1]; removes one of the challenges of design.

I probably should stick a modlist up front. For now:

Essential for me:

FAR

DRE

Editor Extensions

RCS Build Aid

Part Angle Display

Kerbal Flight Data

Kerbal Flight Indicators

Enhanced Navball

Kerbal Alarm Clock

Goodspeed

Mechjeb (long LV-N interplanetary burns are tedious without it, and Smart A.S.S Surface mode is very handy for VTOL flight)

Raster Prop Monitor (essential for IVA flying)

Hyomoto's MFD (improves RPM)

Chatterer (big improvement to immersion)

Fine Print (makes career mode interesting)

That PID tuner which I'm unfortunately unable to redistribute

Things that I frequently use but am willing to ditch when my laptop keeps crashing all the time:

Scansat (lotsa fun)

TAC-LS (just to stop the eternally isolated space station factor)

Kerbal Construction Time (adds an interesting extra challenge to career mode)

Kerbpaint

Hyperedit (not in career, but good for setting up challenges and cinematics)

Part pack that I just use a single part from:

Nil2Work's Retrofuture; it's got the best RPM cameras I've found, and the only ones that aren't excessively vulnerable to DRE

[1] Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with anyone else using them for that.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Wanderfound

[blowfish]

Using the ability to balance fuel within a ship makes fuel lines obsolete, so I tend not to use Goodspeed or TAC-FB for that purpose because it feels a tiny bit cheaty to me [1]; removes one of the challenges of design.

Neither can help with fuel balancing when the craft is completely full or completely empty. I take great care to balance the CoM, dCoM, and payload, but I still use TAC to make sure the fuel drains evenly.

That PID tuner which I'm unfortunately unable to redistribute

I'm pretty sure the license allows redistribution, and I don't think the author ever asked people not to redistribute when he pulled it for nebulous reasons.

[Wanderfound]

Neither can help with fuel balancing when the craft is completely full or completely empty. I take great care to balance the CoM, dCoM, and payload, but I still use TAC to make sure the fuel drains evenly.

I'm pretty sure the license allows redistribution, and I don't think the author ever asked people not to redistribute when he pulled it for nebulous reasons.

I build to minimise CoM/dCom offset, and use fuel lines or tank lockoffs to ensure that the frontmost fuel is not the first to drain. Works for me.

I don't have a copy of the licence, and it's no longer on the release thread. Given the ambiguity, I prefer to err on the side of caution.

I'm happy to promote other people's SAS fixes, though. This one is still developing but appears to be coming along nicely: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/100073-0-25-Pilot-Assistant-0-2-Nov-15-Altitude-and-heading-control-for-planes

[Red Iron Crown]

If it is regex's PID tuner you're referring to, I believe it was released under the MIT license which permits redistribution. There should be a copy of the license in the zip for the mod if you want to check.

[eddiew]

Still dunno a sufficiently good way to thank you for this thread, Wander - so I'll just leave this, a design (visually) based off some of your smaller models:

There's a reason I always have a bunch of 'chutes on my birds - but hell, he got to orbit, docked with the station, ran a Station Science experiment, left some spare fuel for the next guy, came home, and I got all my money back. And nobody died! That's a 110% success! Even if I did apparently forget to toggle the docking port.

More seriously, just flew this little lady, based on your Longshot model, with the middle tanks chopped out (I won't spam any more images in your thread):

Honesty amazed at how small she is for her power; this girl made it to a 100km orbit with a small payload, with 1100m/s spare Ascent between 15 and 20 degrees all the way, mostly flies with trim and hands off. Got squirrelly at 20-30km, but nothing SAS couldn't dampen, and was fine beyond that. Outside rapiers off at 20km, kicked over to quad-rocket mode at about 25km. More patient piloting might get her out of the atmosphere with even more to spare, but she'll definitely do for my general orbital delivery platform.

1 and 1/2 cargo bays back-to-back for a good delivery to LKO. Wet weight 40 tons, dry 25. 10 chutes are plenty for a soft 'emergency' landing. Also features an underside tail-fin, because I was getting desperate to stabilise that yaw at 0.01 atmos. Minor cheating with tweakscale to get those strakes down to 70% size. There's a pair of little landing gears just on the other side, which stops the corners from banging into the ground.

Spot the misplaced RCS thrusters just behind the wings - lol, that's gonna be a pain to dock!

[Wanderfound]

snip nifty spaceplane

You really should give landing normally a try, though; it's not as hard as you'd think. If you want to, grab the ship from the tutorial (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90747-Kerbodyne-SSTO-Division-Omnibus-Thread?p=1555545&viewfull=1#post1555545) and do a named quicksave (alt-F5) with yourself about 20km from the runway. Try to have it as close as you can manage to lined up, at about 500m altitude and 120m/s speed with minimal engines on minimal throttle and flaps (but not spoilers) deployed. From there, it's only a minute or so to landing, so you can quickly fly half a dozen practice runs in succession by quickloading.

Grab yourself Kerbal Flight Indicators. This is a small, elegant and efficient mod that projects the navball indicators into the main view in a non-intrusive way (easy to toggle on and off, too). All you need to do is put the prograde marker just past the nearest end of the runway and keep it there as you come in, keeping your sink rate below 10m/s at impact. If you watch the prograde marker while you do your final approach manoeuvres, you'll get a really clear look at the effects of the controls on the trajectory of the ship.

Shallower approach = easier to control sink rate. Lined up correctly earlier = easier to land with wings level and no sideslip. A little post-landing steering correction is better than a last second banking turn or rudder stomp. Then it's just brake brake brake and steer as gently as possible to keep it on the runway.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Wanderfound

[blowfish]

If it is regex's PID tuner you're referring to, I believe it was released under the MIT license which permits redistribution. There should be a copy of the license in the zip for the mod if you want to check.

Yes. here is a mirror for anyone interested.

[Wanderfound]

Yes. here is a mirror for anyone interested.

Cool, thanks for that. I'll put a link to it in my tutorial post if you don't mind.

[blowfish]

Cool, thanks for that. I'll put a link to it in my tutorial post if you don't mind.

Sure. I can't guarantee that it will stay there forever, but I'll leave it where it is for now.

[Wanderfound]

I'm running short of design inspiration.

What are folks interested in seeing? Long range, sporty, lab ships, VTOLs, budget trainers, cargo haulers, shuttle-style, space stations?

[bakanando]

I'd love to see some Long Range Science Exploration vessels, with a couple of probes as cargo.

Even though I don't use FAR (yet) I always like to read this thread to see what you've come up in the meantime.

[eddiew]

You really should give landing normally a try, though; it's not as hard as you'd think.

I have landed a few properly, tbh, even without flight indicators (though that might make it easier so will give it a go!) I'm always aiming for the runway and sometimes it works out. Also sometimes I'm just a little too high, or a little too fast, and I panic and pull the emergency lever - with results as above. Several times I've misjudged the drop from orbit and gone smack into the top of that darn mountain, though When gliding at 2km/s, it's not really practical to pull up even a little bit. Most likely scenario is a pancake spin, followed by a parachute drop onto the rough.

[blowfish]

2 km/s? Those mountains are right next door to the KSC and pretty low in the atmosphere. You should probably slow down more before then.

[Wanderfound]

I have landed a few properly, tbh, even without flight indicators (though that might make it easier so will give it a go!) I'm always aiming for the runway and sometimes it works out. Also sometimes I'm just a little too high, or a little too fast, and I panic and pull the emergency lever - with results as above. Several times I've misjudged the drop from orbit and gone smack into the top of that darn mountain, though When gliding at 2km/s, it's not really practical to pull up even a little bit. Most likely scenario is a pancake spin, followed by a parachute drop onto the rough.

Might be worth having another look at the second half of the tutorial, too: http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/craigmotbey/Kerbal/Tutorials/Hangar%20to%20Landing/story

[Rakaydos]

I've worked most of the kinks out of of my resupply/crew rotation shuttle, the Griffon. (most recent problem is that my flaps are TOO effective and I go into a stall off the runway w/o control inputs. Might be a few days before I work it out)

At crusing speed, the flight data window is giving me L/D ratios of 4.5 to 5, thouh the angle of attack is a bit higher than others I've seen reccomended. It can put three quarters of an Orange tank's capacity into a low kerbin station and still land on jet power, and brings plenty of RCS and passangers.

I dont use B7, so I dont know what kind of nerfs it puts on jets beyond FAR's speed limit. But an earlier version was DRE rated, it has more than enough passanger capacity to resupply life support mods, and it can single stage to Minmus orbit (possibly minmus surface, as it's VTOL RCS is rated for minmus gravity) on Raipers alone, if you've got an ISRU station there.

Anyone else want to give it a spin?

[Wanderfound]

Anyone else want to give it a spin?

Got a pic?

[Rakaydos]

Still a derivitive of the Manticore hull plan- I suspect you'll keep complaining at me about that until I replace all it with Mk 3 parts. (which I DO have plans to do)

[Wanderfound]

Bringing back the classics: the Kerbodyne De Minimus XXV.

Style and substance.

Exceptional styling.

Rapid acceleration.

Easy takeoff.

And a simple climb. Fine under time acceleration.

This is a very streamlined design; low-drag, not a lot of wing. Give it a bit of speed before pulling too much AoA.

Get up to speed before climbing too high; the low-drag design also implies minimal intakes, so you need to ram-air your engines.

But if you do, she can climb to around 30,000m before switching over to oxidising mode...

...and accelerates very quickly after that.

A shallow final ascent provides extra time to admire your ship.

Comfortably carries a light satellite payload.

Aim:

Ignition:

Shutdown. LKO to escape velocity in less than eight seconds.

Plenty left in the mothership for deorbiting or rendezvous and refuelling.

Craft file at https://www.dropbox.com/s/u8zzlmsug7fqk9c/Kerbodyne%20De%20Minimus%20XXV.craft?dl=0

[Wanderfound]

Still a derivitive of the Manticore hull plan- I suspect you'll keep complaining at me about that until I replace all it with Mk 3 parts. (which I DO have plans to do)

http://i.imgur.com/rfB5gsp.png

I prefer the Mk 2 aesthetic, actually.

What I've been saying to you isn't that it's too big; it's that you could make something just that big fly better if you converted to a monoplane and stripped a bit of excess weight here and there. Same size, same parts, just done a smidgeon more efficiently.

But, it's your plane, and whatever y'wanna do with it is all cool. There is no one true way.

[Jovus]

Wanderfound, have you seen Nertea's new Mk4 parts?

[Wanderfound]

Wanderfound, have you seen Nertea's new Mk4 parts?

No, I hadn't. Ramps!

[Somtaaw]

Well after about 50+ tries, I finally got an OOPS Mk 3K(n) variant into space, and successfully docked her to my station. It took me repeated manual flights, and given how long I would be mashing the S key, and then trying to stabilize, the last 20 tries consisted of slapping a MechJeb control unit and using the auto-ascent.

I'll do a second flight later to grab screenshots, but she bounced like no other, even under MJ autopilot. On the other hand, after she got some speed, for some reason the MJ autopilot decided to randomly put me into a -20 degree climb for 10km or so, and it pulled it off, so that base design is definitely a beast. Especially after your expert Kerbodyne tuning.

Things I found note of:

very bouncy, I have determined there is zero way that my PC will handle the SSTO all the way to orbit, without using MechJeb. I spend all my time with the nose bouncing up and down, and trading height for speed, rather than accelerating and climbing, during the 20-30km acceleration phase in your screenshot testflight.

And thats with the Kerbo-tuned model, not with the clamp version I made for more intersteller flight capability. However she's in space, and docked, so I will once more thank you for your awesome tweaking of my shuttle, and I'll post a pic of her docked up to my station.

[eddiew]

very bouncy, I have determined there is zero way that my PC will handle the SSTO all the way to orbit, without using MechJeb. I spend all my time with the nose bouncing up and down, and trading height for speed, rather than accelerating and climbing, during the 20-30km acceleration phase in your screenshot testflight.

With regard to bouncing, are you leaving SAS on at low altitudes? I had all sorts of problems until I discovered the FAR flight assistance options, and worked out what they did. I kill SAS the moment I'm off the runway and stable, then use alt-WASDQR to set a trim, alt-X to cancel it. Up until about 20-25km, most of my planes will fly straight(ish) and steady with just a little bit of alt-s at the start to keep the nose up, climbing at 10-20 degrees. Above that altitude, somewhere around 0.01 atmospheres and less, I need to kick in SAS and maybe some nosecone vernor thrusters to keep attitude, but at 25k I'm firing up rockets so it passes quickly until it all smooths out above 35-40 and becomes simple and ballistic