Mod-Oriented Tech Tree (Aug 3, v0.3.3 bug fixes)

[bakedbattlestar]

I cant get this tech tree to work. I have followed the intstuctions but i dont get the same layout as the picture at the first screen. help!?

[Wurmi]

i installed this Tree and started a new career. But after unlocking the first parts i have strange flying nodes around.

I dont know if that is normal that i already can unlock this late nodes so early.

[cvod]

I cant get this tech tree to work. I have followed the intstuctions but i dont get the same layout as the picture at the first screen. help!?

It depends on what mods you have installed. A lot of nodes are for Interstellar, Near Future, USI Kolonization, and Karbonite.

i installed this Tree and started a new career. But after unlocking the first parts i have strange flying nodes around.

I dont know if that is normal that i already can unlock this late nodes so early.

That definitely isn't normal, and I'm surprised that you're having this problem and others aren't. Have you done anything weird like install a mod and delete a bunch of parts?

[Wurmi]

That definitely isn't normal, and I'm surprised that you're having this problem and others aren't. Have you done anything weird like install a mod and delete a bunch of parts?

Ok i reinstalled the tree and treeloader. Now the flying nodes disappeared. Fixed

[cvod]

Played around with Karbonite. It seems like it's too late in the tree to be useful, and the nodes are kind of expensive. Once you start using nuclear reactors or ion/plasma engines, fuel becomes a lot less relevant and mining gets kind of obsolete. Seems like it would make a good early option, available prior to Fission Power. Here's my suggested layout:

Basic Resource Collection:

Requirements: Advanced Rocket Propulsion, Fuel Systems

VTS Karbonite Tank, KB-3000 Karbonite Tank, DRT-40 Radial Karbonite Drill, BSP-1 Karbonite Converter, BSX-100 Karbonite Distiller

That's enough to set up Karbonite extraction and convert it to fuel. It's early in the tree so you can decide to sacrifice your early science to start setting up a refueling operation. Should probably only be 120 science or so.

Heavy Resource Collection:

Requirements: Basic Resource Collection, Heavy Fuel Tanks

DRT-21 Ventral Drill Assembly, LS-40 Landing Frame, LSX Landing Frame, the bigger tanks. Probably the KEG-2500 Karbelectric Generator too

Bigger tanks, better drills. Possibly move the two landing frames down to a landing or advanced landing node as they're generally useful even if you don't care about mining. Probably 225ish science.

Colony Resource Collection:

Requirements: Heavy Resource Collection, Ground Colonization

DRT-21A and DRT-21B ventral drills, DRT-40A and DRT-40B radial drills

These collect the resources used for colony mining. Can be fairly expensive.

The propulsion nodes look good, and maybe chain em off Very Heavy Rocketry too.

Also, I noticed that at least in modtree 2.2 + KSPI 12.2, you can't actually use the reactors when you get em. The KSPI reactors require the radiators and generators from Large Electrics.

I like you're ideas and I'm working on implementing something pretty close to them. You wouldn't happen to be familiar with NFP, would you? I'm thinking about consolidating or reorganizing those nodes.

I think he renamed parts for KSPI 12.2 because they all moved to their default nodes, so radiators are a problem. But you don't really need generators for the reactors, right? The reactors can still be used for thermal rockets.

[bonesbro]

I like you're ideas and I'm working on implementing something pretty close to them. You wouldn't happen to be familiar with NFP, would you? I'm thinking about consolidating or reorganizing those nodes.

I think he renamed parts for KSPI 12.2 because they all moved to their default nodes, so radiators are a problem. But you don't really need generators for the reactors, right? The reactors can still be used for thermal rockets.

Yeah, I've got NFP installed and my previous career played with a bunch of the parts so I think I can help out there. I'll play with the parts tonight.

You can use the reactors without the generators, true. But to someone not very familiar with KSPI it will be very confusing; trying to make reactors work was a pretty common question in the KSPI threadnaught. Hmm. Perhaps reordering the way you unlock the tech is the solution. First you get Nuclear Power after Large Electrics, giving you NFP and KSPI reactors as well as the stock radioisotope generator (so the node isn't empty). That chains to Nuclear Propulsion (which also requires something from the rocketry line) which gives you the LV-N and the KSPI thermal rocket. (Also has the benefit of pushing the LV-N later which is good because it's so OP.) Nuclear Power also chains to the NFP reactor upgrades as well as to the KSPI Fusion node.

One other thing I noticed - the KSPI orbital telescope thing is in an early science node, but it requires Liquid Helium as a coolant that isn't available yet.

Also, suggest consolidating the Karbonite jet and rocket engines into a single node. They're already pretty niche. I'm a decent way in to an SSTO-focused career using the tree right now and I'll give some more thoughts on it when I'm home. Just ran out of coffee so I guess I should get back to work now..

[bonesbro]

Ok, here's a few suggestions for the Near Future Propulsion nodes:

/-- advanced ion -- super ion

ion -- plasma -- super plasma

\-- heavy fuel

Ion Propulsion:

ionArgon-0625

ionArgon-125

ionXenon-0625

ionXenon-125

argon-0625

argon-rad-0625

argon-125

xenon-125

Advanced Ion Propulsion:

ionArgon-0625-2

pit-0625

ionXenon-0625-2

ionXenon-25

xenon-125-2

xenon-rad-125

argon-rad-125

argon-125-2

Even Better Ion Propulsion:

pit-125

pit-25

ionXenon-0625-3

argon-25

xenon-25

Plasma Propulsion:

Attila Plasma Thruster (KSPI)

mpdt-*

hydrogen-rad-0625

hydrogen-rad-25

hydrogen-125

hydrogen-25

Variable Plasma Propulsion:

Plasma Engine (KSPI)

vasimr-*

hydrogen-rad-25-2

Heavy Fuel Storage: (also requires Composites)

hydrogen-375

hydrogen-rad-375

xenon-25-2

argon-25-2

trusslrg-argon, trusslrg-hydrogen, trusslrg-xenon from Near Future Construction

[cvod]

I would really try this. I'm running around 80 mods in x32, and using only 2,2 - 2,5 RAM. It's magical! And without the bugs from x64...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84203-Less-memory-usage-by-using-OpenGL

It might solve all your problems, although there are some who experience some trouble. Read through the above thread...

Yep, that definitely made Kerbal load-able again. Thanks!

There is a new version (v0.2.9) in the "all versions" link if you would like to see some of the node changes recently (and also a few bug fixes). I got rid of a few nodes, changed a few dependencies, and kinda fixed support for the new KSPI and B9 (old versions unsupported now), I'll be changing more based on bonesbro's suggestions soon. I'm also planning on adding EPL nodes.

I also made a script for splicing tech tree files. It works as long as the input tech tree file's nodes exist in the main tech tree. This should make it easier on me for sorting parts since I can sort with only a few mods at a time. This will also give you the opportunity to help add support for more mods I'm not familiar with. I'd like to support as many mods as possible, but my time is limited now that classes have started again so this should help speed up the development of the tree if you choose to contribute. That being said, you should probably wait to send me anything until v0.3.0 is released since I'm not sure what all is going to change yet, but TreeEdit is included in the download of v0.2.9 if you want to mess with it.

Just wanted to give some updates since things have been a little bit in disrepair and you haven't seen any changes.

Edited September 3, 2014 by cvod

[bonesbro]

For Near Future Solar, there sure are a lot of panels. Most of them are pretty similar. A few that are different:

solarpanels-modern04 generates a lot more power far away from the sun.

The -curved ones are curved panels. Curved. Panels.

These four are the really big ones:

solarpanels-blanket01 (500/sec)

solarpanels-blanket02 (100)

panel-modern05 (120)

panel-modern03 (72)

Most of the NFS panels require a lot less space than the gigantor, so maybe most of them get dumped into Advanced Solar Technology. Then put the really big ones in the node beyond that. Maybe put the unique modern04 panel into Specialized Electrics because it's, well, more specialized.

The Near Future Construction parts are fun and cool and, because they're just building materials they have no real balance concerns. I'd like to see them fairly early and cheap. (I think all the building parts should be pretty cheap, there should be all kinds of cool parts to encourage you to build interesting things, the challenge is getting them to space) Maybe the trusses get their own node off of, say, Specialized Construction? And then it just isn't there if you don't have the pack. Maybe put all the adapter-25-* and adapter-125-* parts into Composites, or their own node? They're mostly useful as a way to cluster ion engines or do silly things with overlapping parts.

[bonesbro]

TreeEdit is included in the download of v0.2.9 if you want to mess with it.

Actually, doesn't look like TreeEdit.dll is in the 2.9 download - if you can add it to your dropbox I'll take a look!

[cvod]

Actually, doesn't look like TreeEdit.dll is in the 2.9 download - if you can add it to your dropbox I'll take a look!

It's fixed now.

[cvod]

It feels a little weird to unlock big new engines and only have small tanks for them at first.

This started making me think of changing the rocketry nodes. If you've ever seen Jonnothin's Reorganized Tech Tree, he splits his rocketry nodes up similarly except with his tree you get lots of fuel tanks first and no engines. I liked that he split it up, but I didn't like the order. My goal is to have each node be worth buying and actually add something to the gameplay. So I don't want the parts spread too thin, I don't want you to have to unlock nodes just to get to the next one, and I don't want you to be stuck with parts that make your building options more limited than they should be (which this current set up may be doing). Maybe instead of having a dedicated fuel node, the first node would have basic engines and medium fuel tanks and then you'd have the option of either more efficient engines with the smallest tanks or higher thrust engines with the largest tanks. How does that sound? That would actually make it a lot like Jonnothin's tree, except for how the fuel tanks are distributed. Or should I just get rid of the option and condense the two nodes into one?

(by the way I'm asking for anyone's input. wasn't really directed toward bonesbro)

[bonesbro]

Hmm, I like it when games give me tradeoffs to think about and that sounds like an interesting choice. Need to be careful that starting with only medium fuel tanks lets you build something meaningful - medium might be too big to use on a probe and too small to use on a ship.

I think the 2.9 tree might be too expensive. It took almost 60k science to unlock the whole tree. I think you might get stuck really grinding science at the end. Maybe more of the later nodes might only be 500ish science? Still expensive enough that you have to decide, but you could run a big mission to another planet and get a couple of nodes. With the KSPI warp drive still at 10k, maybe aim for most of the rest to be done in 35-40 more?

I do really like the 2.9 tree though Going to go figure out my total science spend on my 2.2 career then rebuy everything in 2.9 to see how it feels. (Having trouble getting SSTOs that can land on the moons and return, even with my fancy new Sabers, so might have to switch to rocketry or use the damn LV-N)

[cvod]

I'm pretty sure it takes a lot less science before. I really only deleted and moved nodes. Did you add any mods? Near Future adds a ton of science required to finish the tree. I want the tree to be more expensive than stock, but have all the nodes that contain stock parts add up to about the same as stock.

Honestly though, I'm going to scale these prices to make career mode harder when I play a big career with this tree, especially for the end-game. But I've barely played Kerbal in the past few months, so who knows when that'll be.

[bonesbro]

Tree snippet: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/aij3gz493ifaxme/AACmeVzot3ecpE3l9JZgfQF9a?dl=0 It adds two Extraplanetary Launchpads nodes that also include the parts from the EPL/Karbonite conversion mod. Note - the EPL mod is kind of messy; it has 16 different parts to store ore, rocket parts, and metal in different sizes. There are also three different sizes of drill and smelter, and the EPL/Karbonite conversion adds three more smelters. It also has some deprecated parts (oreBin, metalBin, exLaunchPad) that aren't in the tree at all. I made two nodes:

* Orbital Refining (525 science) that chains from Resource Collection and adds ore mining, ore->metal->rocketparts conversion, and storage for them.

* Orbital Construction (1000 science) that chains from Orbital Refining and Advanced MetalWorks that adds the construction docks and the recycle bins.

The idea is that Orbital Refining is enough to set up a mining base to start producing rocket parts, then the later node lets you build a place to use em.

Other things:

* If the B9 MK2 SAS and B9 HL SAS are going to stay in the flight control nodes, should move the B9 S2 SAS into a flight control node too. Or move those two to the techs that unlock the rest of their fuselage parts.

* The KSPI Deuterium/Tritium Cryostat should move from the Basic Scanning node to the Fusion Power node, as it is the fuel storage for fusion reactors.

* Perhaps remove the link between Spaceplane Propulsion to Massive Fuselages and instead link it from Large-Scale Composites? The HX parts can't really be considered spaceplanes anymore

* Suggest moving around a couple of the B9 engines. Here's info I got from the B9 thread when I asked what all the engines are good for:

TFE731/CF34: subsonic

VA1: mach 1 and a bit if you're lucky

F119: mach 2+

D30-F7: Mach3+

SABRE: SSTO

So perhaps these changes:

* Move TFE731 Turbofan and the two small engine pylons from Improved Jet Engines to Basic Aeronautics

* Move CF34 Turbofan from Supersonic Flight to Aerodynamics, and the Medium Engine Pylons from Heavy Aerodynamics to Aerodynamics too.

* Move D30F7 from Improved Jet Engines to Supersonic Flight

* Move F119 Turbofan to Improved Jet Engines

That gives an engine upgrade at each of the nodes in a way that increases your capabilities at each step. Although one problem is that you're kind of limited on acquirable science until you can leave the atmosphere (even without orbiting) and I needed to use the D30F7 at its current location to get there. I think B9 is a bit bloated with kind of useless engines anyway.

Here are a couple other small B9 tweaks:

* Move T2 Engine Mount from Large-Scale Composites to Improved Jet Engines

* Move C125 Axial Adapter from Large-Scale Composites to Aerospace Tech to go with the cockpit that it attaches to.

* Move stock Swept Wings and stock Small Control Surface Aerodynamics to Basic Aeronautics because it's tough to build a flyable plane with BA's parts right now.

Edited September 5, 2014 by bonesbro
Added link to tree

[bonesbro]

Oh, also noticed that the B9 HL Cockpit is in the Large Fuselage node. Should move to the Heavy Aerodynamics node, as that's when you unlock the rest of the HL parts. Maybe swap it with the MK5 Cockpit, as that cockpit is usable with the S2 fuselages from Large Fuselage. Or, since it's just a regular 2.5m cockpit, move it to the Advanced Manned Control node. (Also I'm not a big fan of that node, as the Mk2 Lander-can is lighter and thus pretty much always superior to any of those except for looks and durability, so it kind of feels like setting 300 science on fire)

[cvod]

I think that's a quick fix. Traded the Mk2 lander-can with the cupola since that one is pretty much the worst of them due to weight. I just needed the Manned Control node to not be only the Mk1 lander-can. And I'm really not that big of a fan of the Manned Control nodes or the SAS control nodes. I like how with unmanned control is mixed with antennae, but I can't really put SAS with Manned Control since unmanned needs it as well.

[bonesbro]

Thanks - let me know if the tree I gave you is built in a useful way for you. I think you should just be able to copy/paste in the new nodes.

[cvod]

Did you include add-ons for EPL?

[bonesbro]

Did you include add-ons for EPL?

I've got EPL and the EPL/Karbonite addon. Bahamuto's drills are also included in the addon.

[TranceaddicT]

cvod,

Thank you for taking the time and putting in the special effort to make this happen. It really works well and I enjoy the progression as well as your updates.

I do that a problem that is probably NOT related to you, but since you have dealt with this so extensively I hope you might have some insight. I have a save that I followed your install instructions (KSPI fix applied). Unfortunately, every time I load the save your .cfg is overwritten by KSP. Now, I do have a work-around; copy/paste and check R&D to verify. However that is tedious and becoming a chore.

Is there something in the persistent file that causes this? Is it something else entirely and I'd have to restart?

[cvod]

So it overwrites mine with the default tree? Or the interstellar tree? And just to clarify, you don't get the interstellar update message on each load?

Sorry, I don't think I've come across this issue. I wouldn't restart anything. First check if it behaves the same on a new save file.

Edited September 6, 2014 by cvod

[bonesbro]

cvod,

Thank you for taking the time and putting in the special effort to make this happen. It really works well and I enjoy the progression as well as your updates.

I do that a problem that is probably NOT related to you, but since you have dealt with this so extensively I hope you might have some insight. I have a save that I followed your install instructions (KSPI fix applied). Unfortunately, every time I load the save your .cfg is overwritten by KSP. Now, I do have a work-around; copy/paste and check R&D to verify. However that is tedious and becoming a chore.

Is there something in the persistent file that causes this? Is it something else entirely and I'd have to restart?

Try deleting tree.cfg from your /GameData/Interstellar folder. I had the log window up while loading a game and noticed a warning in my log that said it was trying to copy that file, so I bet that's what's happening for you.

[bonesbro]

Another little suggestion - make Resource Storage a lot cheaper, like 100 or 150. The Heavy Fuel Tanks node just above it (which would be a good dependency actually) is only 90 science and the big tanks aren't really much of an improvement. Only reason I unlocked them at all was because inline tanks are more convenient than radials.

[TranceaddicT]

bonesbro,

I'll check that out right now. Thank; let you know how it worked for me.

cvod,

I think I've found a misplacement for a couple of items (unless you have a reason for placing them as such):

name = FNDeuteriumCryostat

name = FNHeliumCryostat

Both are listed under basicScanning. Personally, I've moved them to heavyFuelTanks. I may suggest/might move them further, but I haven't unlocked that far.