Mod-Oriented Tech Tree (Aug 3, v0.3.3 bug fixes)

[Sokar408]

Given that there is a new Interstellar version out, forked by Wave, will you be adding support for that, or staying with the old school version? I'm asking because there is significant changes in Wave's version, and some parts have been removed for streamlining.

[JeffreyCor]

I was coming here to ask that exact same thing Great minds I very much hope this includes the .12 Interstellar changes. So far from trying this is the best tech tree I've ever used. I wish there was a way to update my poll answer to reflect that

[cvod]

JeffreyCor, I'm glad you like the tech tree so much!

I haven't quite decided what to do with the new Interstellar. Right now a couple of the nuclear nodes will be empty because of all the parts sizes being condensed into one. I don't really like that. I think you should have to research bigger reactors separately. If I personally switch to the new Interstellar, I was going to make a .cfg file that would edit the TweakScale modules to make certain sized reactors unlock with different nodes. Dtobi's special part pack does this, and I'm pretty sure it's broken in my tech tree right now since the TweakScale modules assume the parts are in a different section of the tech tree. If people like that idea I could include the .cfg in the download, but that would mess up any other saves you have if they were using a different tech tree. The other problem with TweakScale modules being dependent on the tech tree is that you don't see what you're unlocking in the tech tree, so that might be confusing unless I add it to the node description or part description.

[JeffreyCor]

An idea for knowing what techs unlock part sizes might be dummy parts that aren't actually parts but show up in the list of parts that are unlocked. This would give the appearance of a part gained in that tech node while in actuality it is just locking the respective size.

Generally I'd think of technology more of a type rather than a size. Size is just make it bigger where as type is a new approach.

From what I read the new Interstellar is much improved, but also as the original developer is MIA this branch looks like it will become the only one in the future and certainly the only one to be updated, which I think lends toward going with the new.

For the size issue on nodes, maybe make the tweakscale cfg file an option? Users can chose the trade off of empty nodes or breaking other active saves.

[bonesbro]

If people like that idea I could include the .cfg in the download, but that would mess up any other saves you have if they were using a different tech tree.

Regardless of how you decide to handle the different reactor sizes, I think that you should not worry about save compatibility with a different mod. Changing tech trees seems like a "start a new game" kind of situation.

[cvod]

The dummy part is an interesting idea. Or maybe I can just same place the part in both nodes. Not sure if that would break anything or not.

Generally I'd think of technology more of a type rather than a size. Size is just make it bigger where as type is a new approach.

From what I read the new Interstellar is much improved, but also as the original developer is MIA this branch looks like it will become the only one in the future and certainly the only one to be updated, which I think lends toward going with the new.

I was thinking of it more as the price of engineering a different version of the part rather than coming up with a new technology. Almost like the smaller parts are just prototypes.

As a mod I think it's improved, but it seems like the tech stats are less realistic. Dunno, I could be wrong. I'll definitely end up supporting it somehow though.

[cvod]

Regardless of how you decide to handle the different reactor sizes, I think that you should not worry about save compatibility with a different mod. Changing tech trees seems like a "start a new game" kind of situation.

I know I only ever have one save at a time, I just wasn't sure if other people did that too.

[Stage]

I made mm configs for my career game to "fix" the KSPI 0.12 scaling and edited the KSPI tree so in every node there is at least one part to research. Although not complete, [tree] (stock KSPI tree) and [mm config] (!! I did not test this much, so there may be problems).

I placed the reactors where they should be, and moved parts/nodes slightly. Part size unlocks are in the parts description and you'll unlock most of them when doing the standard kspi tree. I did not test it with your tree cvod, but maybe it works too.

I know I only ever have one save at a time, I just wasn't sure if other people did that too.

Me too, fortunately I did not progress that far, so changing stuff is no problem for me atm.

[cvod]

I made mm configs for my career game to "fix" the KSPI 0.12 scaling and edited the KSPI tree so in every node there is at least one part to research. Although not complete, [tree] (stock KSPI tree) and [mm config] (!! I did not test this much, so there may be problems).

I placed the reactors where they should be, and moved parts/nodes slightly. Part size unlocks are in the parts description and you'll unlock most of them when doing the standard kspi tree. I did not test it with your tree cvod, but maybe it works too.

This is exactly what I was planning on doing! It probably won't work since I added a couple nodes to the nuclear section, but it would work better than playing without your mm config.

[Stage]

I do play with your techtree, but I haven't had the time to test it there. If I find the time I will change the MM config so it fits your tree

[JeffreyCor]

I can't wait to see what you come up with for integrating them

[Sarayakat]

Hey Cvod, I'm currently testing your .2.2. The only thing I would change so far is that the universal storage quad mount is under advanced construction @150 points whilst there are wedges for it that unlock on the science side for 90. Getting the quad a bit earlier would make sense, especially since finding it takes some trial and error unless you look in the config (as I did). Otherwise, things are looking great. The newest layout seems clean and relatively easy on the eyes compared to some of the earlier efforts as well. Thanks again for the mod!

[cvod]

I do play with your techtree, but I haven't had the time to test it there. If I find the time I will change the MM config so it fits your tree

That would be awesome. If you do, could I include it in the download? It might be a while before I can sit down and write my own.

Hey Cvod, I'm currently testing your .2.2. The only thing I would change so far is that the universal storage quad mount is under advanced construction @150 points whilst there are wedges for it that unlock on the science side for 90. Getting the quad a bit earlier would make sense, especially since finding it takes some trial and error unless you look in the config (as I did). Otherwise, things are looking great. The newest layout seems clean and relatively easy on the eyes compared to some of the earlier efforts as well. Thanks again for the mod!

Good call. That will definitely get updated.

Edited August 27, 2014 by cvod

[Sokar408]

JeffreyCor, I'm glad you like the tech tree so much!

I haven't quite decided what to do with the new Interstellar. Right now a couple of the nuclear nodes will be empty because of all the parts sizes being condensed into one. I don't really like that. I think you should have to research bigger reactors separately. If I personally switch to the new Interstellar, I was going to make a .cfg file that would edit the TweakScale modules to make certain sized reactors unlock with different nodes. Dtobi's special part pack does this, and I'm pretty sure it's broken in my tech tree right now since the TweakScale modules assume the parts are in a different section of the tech tree. If people like that idea I could include the .cfg in the download, but that would mess up any other saves you have if they were using a different tech tree. The other problem with TweakScale modules being dependent on the tech tree is that you don't see what you're unlocking in the tech tree, so that might be confusing unless I add it to the node description or part description.

That would be amazing, and I agree with that. If you end up doing it, you'll have another user for your Tech Tree

[Stage]

I found a bug with the new interstellar (I think): the Basic Nuclear Fusion node can't be unlocked, the largeNukeReactors node doesn't work anymore. Just switch it with the Fission Power node, and everything works again.

Found it: ofc the part names changes, so the node was empty and not showing. New rocket nozzle name is ThermalRocketNozzle.

My MM config should work, although I don't know if they now make sense. Will check the techtree and adjust everything.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Stage

[bonesbro]

Overall I really like it. Some feedback after playing with it a bit:

- Is the grav detector too early? It's in a 150 science node you can get pretty early, and it delivers an incredible amount of science. Of course the tree takes a lot more science to get through, too.

- It feels a little weird to unlock big new engines and only have small tanks for them at first.

- Would be nice to group all the different lights into their own cheap node pretty early on. Lights are mostly cosmetic.

- The ExtraPlanetary Launchpads parts are in weird places and should probably have their own nodes. You get your first (useless by themselves) containers early, in Advanced Rocket Propulsion, and the builder modules are down in Streamlined Construction which doesn't have any link to the ARP node. They're also too early in the tree. Also would be lovely to get the parts in the EPL->Karbonite mod added.

- You get the Universal Storage Quadcore in the Specialized Construction node but I don't think you get any of the parts to mount on it yet.

- The O-10 Monopropellant Engine is unlocked in "More-Specialized Control", ahead of the Monopropellant Propulsion node.

- The MKS/OKS nodes contain deprecated parts that have been removed in newer versions of the mod.

- I have all of the Near Future packs installed, but my nuclear nodes at the top ended with Fission Power. I don't have KSPI installed, maybe that's why?

- RoverDude's new Asteroid Resource Tech mod would be a good one to add support for.

[cvod]

Overall I really like it. Some feedback after playing with it a bit:

- Is the grav detector too early? It's in a 150 science node you can get pretty early, and it delivers an incredible amount of science. Of course the tree takes a lot more science to get through, too.

- It feels a little weird to unlock big new engines and only have small tanks for them at first.

- Would be nice to group all the different lights into their own cheap node pretty early on. Lights are mostly cosmetic.

- The ExtraPlanetary Launchpads parts are in weird places and should probably have their own nodes. You get your first (useless by themselves) containers early, in Advanced Rocket Propulsion, and the builder modules are down in Streamlined Construction which doesn't have any link to the ARP node. They're also too early in the tree. Also would be lovely to get the parts in the EPL->Karbonite mod added.

- You get the Universal Storage Quadcore in the Specialized Construction node but I don't think you get any of the parts to mount on it yet.

- The O-10 Monopropellant Engine is unlocked in "More-Specialized Control", ahead of the Monopropellant Propulsion node.

- The MKS/OKS nodes contain deprecated parts that have been removed in newer versions of the mod.

- I have all of the Near Future packs installed, but my nuclear nodes at the top ended with Fission Power. I don't have KSPI installed, maybe that's why?

- RoverDude's new Asteroid Resource Tech mod would be a good one to add support for.

- (grav detector) I could move it. I forgot how much science you get from it. I'll look into it.

- I havent implemented EPL so it makes sense that they're in weird places

- I fixed the US quadcore problem, I just haven't updated the download yet

- for the O-10 mono engine, it would be the only part in that node in stock (or without mods that add mono propulsion) but I'm glad you pointed that out

- for NF, you didn't get all the parts did you? Originally, I was going to require KSPI, and looks like there's still some leftover bugs from not requiring it.

- for RoverDude's ART would it be good to have dedicated nodes? I've haven't been sure if those would be worth adding for the few mods that add asteroid parts.

Thanks for the feedback! I should be able to get a decent update out this weekend. I've had trouble updating it recently because Kerbal is so unstable with having all these mods installed at the same time (which they have to be for tree edit)

[bonesbro]

- (grav detector) I could move it. I forgot how much science you get from it. I'll look into it.

- I havent implemented EPL so it makes sense that they're in weird places

- I fixed the US quadcore problem, I just haven't updated the download yet

- for the O-10 mono engine, it would be the only part in that node in stock (or without mods that add mono propulsion) but I'm glad you pointed that out

- for NF, you didn't get all the parts did you? Originally, I was going to require KSPI, and looks like there's still some leftover bugs from not requiring it.

- for RoverDude's ART would it be good to have dedicated nodes? I've haven't been sure if those would be worth adding for the few mods that add asteroid parts.

Thanks for the feedback! I should be able to get a decent update out this weekend. I've had trouble updating it recently because Kerbal is so unstable with having all these mods installed at the same time (which they have to be for tree edit)

I think maybe a single Asteroid Utilization node might be good, maybe at least put the stock Claw in there? Then dump everything else asteroid-related from any random mod in there.

I found that added the -force-opengl commandline parameter (recommended in the B9 thread) saved me, like, 1.5 GB of memory, making it usable with all these mods.

I do think I have all the NFT parts. They did a big update to it on the 16th that changed stuff around; is your tree built against v2.2? I should look for a way to dump my full part list from sandbox and compare it to the fully unlocked career tree to see what's missing..

I would love relatively early access to Karbonite/Kethane, at least their smaller & less efficient parts. Think you said you were already doing that though.

[bonesbro]

Little bug: The MassiveSolidBoosters node doesn't have spaces in its name

[Dielos]

I found that added the -force-opengl commandline parameter (recommended in the B9 thread) saved me, like, 1.5 GB of memory, making it usable with all these mods.

I would really try this. I'm running around 80 mods in x32, and using only 2,2 - 2,5 RAM. It's magical! And without the bugs from x64...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84203-Less-memory-usage-by-using-OpenGL

It might solve all your problems, although there are some who experience some trouble. Read through the above thread...

[bonesbro]

Ok, I think I found a way to see the parts that I haven't unlocked yet.

1. Install the Part Catalog mod
   
2. Create a career game, cheat yourself 90k science, unlock every node
   
3. Open the VAB
   
4. Click the Settings button on PartCatalog to open the part list
   
5. Click on the "All" node (on the node itself, not on the little + next to it)
   
6. The parts not unlocked by your science tree are in the Available Parts list in the middle pane
   
7. 
   

It shows these parts from the NearFutureElectrical mod:

nuclearfuel-0625

nuclearfuel-125

nuclearfuel-25

nuclear-recycler-25

radiator-confirmal-1

radiator-confirmal-3

radiator-universal-1

radiator-universal-2

reactor-0625

reactor-25

reactor-25-2

reactor-375

Did some looking through and they're parented or grandparented in newnode_527, AdvNukePropr. That node has three novapunch parts and five KSPi parts, and I don't have either installed. So I guess that makes the node empty and KSP throws it away.

I'm also missing one part from B9, B9.Cockpit.D25. That part says its tech tree node is largeProbes, which I don't see in your tree.cfg. Could be a B9 bug, I'll report it in their thread.

[bonesbro]

Also, the backwards dependency from Manned Control (which has lander cans and hitchhikers) to Space Exploration (which has the science lab) is kind of odd. It makes sense, but it's weird having a requirement above it in the tree.

I've never really understood the concentrating solar panels from NFP, and sure don't know why I would spend like a thousand science on them.

Sure does take a lot of science to work through the new tree. I feel like I probably need to get KSPI just for the extra science (the magnetometer & impactor, science labs aren't worth much).

[cvod]

Did some looking through and they're parented or grandparented in newnode_527, AdvNukePropr. That node has three novapunch parts and five KSPi parts, and I don't have either installed. So I guess that makes the node empty and KSP throws it away.

I'm also missing one part from B9, B9.Cockpit.D25. That part says its tech tree node is largeProbes, which I don't see in your tree.cfg. Could be a B9 bug, I'll report it in their thread.

That's what I expected to be missing. It'll probably get fixed when I switch to the new KSPI but I'll try to put out a quick fix first.

That could be a TreeEdit problem, or somehow I just don't have that part installed. Probably will be fixed when I switch to the new B9.

Also, the backwards dependency from Manned Control (which has lander cans and hitchhikers) to Space Exploration (which has the science lab) is kind of odd. It makes sense, but it's weird having a requirement above it in the tree.

I've never really understood the concentrating solar panels from NFP, and sure don't know why I would spend like a thousand science on them.

Sure does take a lot of science to work through the new tree. I feel like I probably need to get KSPI just for the extra science (the magnetometer & impactor, science labs aren't worth much).

Yeah, that's one of the dependencies I'm not happy with. But making it go backwards really cleaned up how cluttered things were in that section.

I don't know either. I haven't ever used them. I think all my prices are about the same as the NFP node prices when you use his added nodes.

Are you using Custom Biomes? The stock and interstellar nodes add up fairly close to the normal interstellar tree (or at least they did last time I checked). All the additional nodes with only mod parts do add up though. NFP is probably the main contributor since I just adopted his prices.

[bonesbro]

Turns out the largeProbes thing is a b9 bug, they have it fixed now.

I'm not using custom biomes... hmm, probably do need at least one or two +science mods to make up for all the new nodes.

The Basic Aeronautics node is a little odd. Could you move at least one standard wing into there, maybe the Swept Wings, and the Standard Control Surface too? The only option you really have for wings at just BA is the pivotable winglets and planes with fully pivoting wings seem really weird. Then maybe move the B9 3x2.2m winglet up into Aerodynamics to add a little bit of winglet progression.

Do you have to lay out the nodes manually, or is there a tool that you use to do it? I could do the EPL nodes if you'd like since you don't run it.

[bonesbro]

Played around with Karbonite. It seems like it's too late in the tree to be useful, and the nodes are kind of expensive. Once you start using nuclear reactors or ion/plasma engines, fuel becomes a lot less relevant and mining gets kind of obsolete. Seems like it would make a good early option, available prior to Fission Power. Here's my suggested layout:

Basic Resource Collection:

Requirements: Advanced Rocket Propulsion, Fuel Systems

VTS Karbonite Tank, KB-3000 Karbonite Tank, DRT-40 Radial Karbonite Drill, BSP-1 Karbonite Converter, BSX-100 Karbonite Distiller

That's enough to set up Karbonite extraction and convert it to fuel. It's early in the tree so you can decide to sacrifice your early science to start setting up a refueling operation. Should probably only be 120 science or so.

Heavy Resource Collection:

Requirements: Basic Resource Collection, Heavy Fuel Tanks

DRT-21 Ventral Drill Assembly, LS-40 Landing Frame, LSX Landing Frame, the bigger tanks. Probably the KEG-2500 Karbelectric Generator too

Bigger tanks, better drills. Possibly move the two landing frames down to a landing or advanced landing node as they're generally useful even if you don't care about mining. Probably 225ish science.

Colony Resource Collection:

Requirements: Heavy Resource Collection, Ground Colonization

DRT-21A and DRT-21B ventral drills, DRT-40A and DRT-40B radial drills

These collect the resources used for colony mining. Can be fairly expensive.

The propulsion nodes look good, and maybe chain em off Very Heavy Rocketry too.

Also, I noticed that at least in modtree 2.2 + KSPI 12.2, you can't actually use the reactors when you get em. The KSPI reactors require the radiators and generators from Large Electrics.