Things to do on the surface.

[willow]

The last few weeks I've been heavily into KSP again. Starting from scratch and by now I've almost got the tech tree filled out.

However, I did notice one thing, that I have been bothered by before. For all the effort I put in into getting to Duna, all I tend to really do there is get out, scoop up some sand, scribble a few notes plant a flag and go home again. This usually occurs within a minute.

I could drive around in a rover. But to where and why? I could make a few hops with the lander, again to where and why?

I'm really missing things to do. Whats your opinions? You also do your landing and liftoff within the minute? Or have you found an actual reason to be on those planets for an extended period of time?

[Tw1]

I also find this is a problem with KSP's design. You can go sightseeing, but otherwise, the game doesn't encourage much detailed investigation of the planets. I was hoping that science would've provided more stuff to do, but it turned out to be a click and collect system, rather than something where you go out an investigate, like actual science.

[Seshins]

this is why im all for caves/sperlunky type exploring on the planets. Or lava tubes with skylights.

[Cirocco]

yeah I do the same: scoop up a sample, plant flag, look around a bit and get back in the craft to timewarp to the launch window. All happens within a minute or two.

That being said i've promised myself to start putting rovers and bases on other planets this career run. With contracts and my promise to myself to keep loading/reverting to a minimum as well as trying to keep all my kerbals safe, I'm now sending out much more unmanned missions.

So prior to sending the 2-minute lasting manned missions, I'll now probably be sending a rover first.

I really hope biomes for multiple planets get added in the not too distant future though. That would already give more incentive to ground-based stuff I think.

[Renegrade]

I also find this is a problem with KSP's design. You can go sightseeing, but otherwise, the game doesn't encourage much detailed investigation of the planets. I was hoping that science would've provided more stuff to do, but it turned out to be a click and collect system, rather than something where you go out an investigate, like actual science.

Well the click and collect system on the Mun and Minmus with it's biomes at least encourages multiple visits, and makes the Mobile Lab worthwhile.

Duna and the other planets are pretty much a single visit and you're done, unless you really want to grind those diminishing returns. Giving them biomes would at least give you a reason to bring the Mobile Lab instead of two sets of goo pods and science jrs.

(I'd also love it if you had to collect samples from an area around your initial landing to complete the 'sample return', or deploy little experiments here and there and return later to collect the results, might give a reason for rovers etc, but that would be a lot more development design and programming over simply adding biomes to the outer planets)

At the same time, I also want to point out that the science tree ends way too quickly, you can gain enough science from the Mun and Minmus to fully complete it, even if you don't use a single science-bearing contract. I'd love to see returns nerfed and/or the tree's cost increase in the higher tiers so that you HAVE to go interplanetary to finish.. with maybe parts redistributed so that some of the more basic ones are available sooner (wheels and constructing materials, wing plates for airplanes, maybe even science bits to prevent beelining)..

I'm not going to talk about what a gross abuse of progress the science returns from Contracts are (aside from mentioning you can pretty much complete the tree without going farther than the Mun with them) because I assume that they're just the first, placeholdery versions, and still being worked on.

Finally, I'd love to see something to combat biome fatigue. I've seen diminishing returns for a given experiment in a given world's biomes suggested, which doesn't sound bad.

[Tex_NL]

You might want to consider installing Custom Biomes. It won't give you more to do on the surface but it does give you a reason to go to different places.

[Tommygun]

Try adding a few mods like the Munar Surface Experiment Package, I think it works on any moon/planet.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/86247-WIP-Munar-Surface-Experiment-package-%28phase-1%29

It adds some EVA surface science.

Maybe try out that new Karbonite mod to refill your ship for the return trip.

TAC life support and RemoteTech can add new challenges to your game as well.

[Biff Space]

The Fine Print mod has rover search contracts, where you have to visit a cluster of up to 7 waypoints in a wheeled vehicle to complete the contract. (Among other new contract types). I really like this mod.

[willow]

I will try out that Karbonite mod Tommy, as soon as my tech tree is filled out a few refuelling bases are the next step on the agenda!

I like that we agree on the problem... Maybe we can devise some very simple ideas on solving the issue? ( I love the spelunking idea, though I fear it's going to cost a prohibitory effort to implement)

My example would be expanding the ground scatter a bit. So on the mun there is groundscatter rocks. If squad adds different rock types and allows a science experiment to be performed on these rocks. Then travelling around would yield a few different rock types with a science bonus for every rock type found.

[cantab]

I could drive around in a rover. But to where and why? I could make a few hops with the lander, again to where and why?

Notable terrain features like mountaintops and crater rims, to look at the scenery and see what the vehicle is capable of. True, the scenery doesn't tend to look *that* interesting up close.

For me just my science program takes a bit of time, with at least two runs for most experiments (transmit one, return one) including the surface sample, and timewarping to recharge the batteries for transmission. Then there's positioning the Kerbals for the photo-op. Even if I don't go anywhere I've already done a bit.

Edited August 20, 2014 by cantab

[Tw1]

Well the click and collect system on the Mun and Minmus with it's biomes at least encourages multiple visits, and makes the Mobile Lab worthwhile.

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While this is true, and it can also encourage more elaborate ground missions, it still doesn't give you much extra to to while on the ground. Personally, I'm not a great fan of the tech tree- a few nodes in and the limited parts are more an annoyance than a challenge. I'd prefer the games next "pusher" for once the tree is complete to be something more

I like that we agree on the problem... Maybe we can devise some very simple ideas on solving the issue? ( I love the spelunking idea, though I fear it's going to cost a prohibitory effort to implement)

I think a lot more can be added through the contract system- it has a lot of potential. Fine print has some of these.

One idea that I've put out before is to add a second layer of science, which lets you measure and record actual data- graphs, and planet geology charts, and stuff like that. Then taking multiple measurements could be worth it.

The difficulty is some of the planets won't be so easy to set this up for.

[TYRT]

Jump, enable EVA RCS and take a flip, it's funny. But don't forget: only Jeb can do this

[Kasuha]

Just landing is usually boring. Hop out, pick up a sample, plant a flag and you're done. Except if you need to work around design defficiencies of your lander, such as that one time when I landed on Tylo and found my Kerbal unable to reach the ladder or get into the capsule which was enclosed in the middle of asparagus-staged return module. I had to stage two times and then climb up the landing leg to get there. Fortunately even after losing two stages the ship was still able to return to orbit. And there were more such adventurous moments in my landings.

It is more fun if you have a rover or if you have dv to spare. You could for instance decide to not plant the flag where you are, but on the highest peak nearby. Or go sightseeing some easter eggs or landmarks. Land with a rover near the pole, then rove to the pole and plant the flag there. You'll get more than enough fun EVAing that way.

[willow]

I think a lot more can be added through the contract system- it has a lot of potential. Fine print has some of these.

I'll have to check fine-print. Indeed I can smell the potential in the contract system, they have only touched the surface of it. Though most of the contracts are too awkward in my opinion. Testing a landing gear/separator on Duna doesn't tickle my fancy. How about "There's a strange rock formation at 2 or 3 locations around that precise spot... go take some samples."

One idea that I've put out before is to add a second layer of science, which lets you measure and record actual data- graphs, and planet geology charts, and stuff like that. Then taking multiple measurements could be worth it.

Great idea.. Let the measurement be a function of time or a mapped value (similar to biomes) then waiting/travelling and taking multiple measurements would be great.

[KerikBalm]

While this is true, and it can also encourage more elaborate ground missions, it still doesn't give you much extra to to while on the ground. Personally, I'm not a great fan of the tech tree- a few nodes in and the limited parts are more an annoyance than a challenge. I'd prefer the games next "pusher" for once the tree is complete to be something more.

Well, if you try to land a rover near the intersection of 3 or more biomes, then you've got a bit of driving to do on the ground. For "fun" I'll often land a roving science lab, and I additionally have to go collect data from goo cans and such. I drop science lab rovers through duna too, and when I get on the ground, I need to collect and store all the instrument data I took while descending through the atmosphere, before using them again for the surface.

I agree with you on the tech tree- I don't want to have to go to Laythe to get docking ports! Doing interplanetary missions is often hard enough (with Duna not being all that hard), doing it with limited parts is annoying.

"Oops, need to go back because I didn't unlock the grav scan"

"Well, I don't have large diameter parts, so I'll just make a high part count craft that lags my computer"

"Hmmm, it seems I don't have the technology to make a metal girder, must go to Eeloo without it!"

I'd rather see getting data as something that causes you to get more funding/reputation.

[Renegrade]

While this is true, and it can also encourage more elaborate ground missions, it still doesn't give you much extra to to while on the ground. Personally, I'm not a great fan of the tech tree- a few nodes in and the limited parts are more an annoyance than a challenge. I'd prefer the games next "pusher" for once the tree is complete to be something more

Yeah, the tree needs a LOT of work in terms of progression. And I mean a lot -- and it would be nice if it were kinda node-crosslinked. As an example, Clamp-o-tron Jr ports are simply another purchase down the same line as clamp-o-trons. I think it would be more interesting if they were in the same node as clamp-o-trons, but remained locked until and unless you bought Precision Engineering.

That and it would be nice if unlocking nodes could provide upgrades to existing parts (kinda like RealFuels's 'tech level' or some of Interstellar's nodes).

What would you have in mind for a pusher post science tree? Something to do post-tree would definitely add to my play value

[Xavven]

I agree with you on the tech tree- I don't want to have to go to Laythe to get docking ports! Doing interplanetary missions is often hard enough (with Duna not being all that hard), doing it with limited parts is annoying.

"Oops, need to go back because I didn't unlock the grav scan"

"Well, I don't have large diameter parts, so I'll just make a high part count craft that lags my computer"

"Hmmm, it seems I don't have the technology to make a metal girder, must go to Eeloo without it!"

I'd rather see getting data as something that causes you to get more funding/reputation.

Totally agree about the tree. IMHO there are some technologies that should be unlocked way early in the tech tree, like rover wheels, girders, I-beams, struts, nose cones etc. I just find it funny that there would be a civilization, even a fictitious one, that invents gimbaled rocket engines before they invent the wheel...

I also don't see the point in putting longer tanks in different nodes, since I can basically have an FL-T800 by stacking two FL-T400s on top of each other.

You can also make a large nosecone by combining a Rockomax Brand Adapter with a small nosecone - a large nosecone should not be at the same tech level as an Aerospike engine...

[Sky_walker]

Biomes on all planets would be a good start...

[Tw1]

To me it's not about how it's set up, I don't mind that. It's more the whole thing of having to unlock the parts gets old for me quickly, I don't think I've completed a 'tech tree mode" play through.

What would you have in mind for a pusher post science tree? Something to do post-tree would definitely add to my play value

As many slighly 'older' KSP'ers will remember, before the tech tree, we needed no pusher. You were given a spaceship parts and pointed to the sky. People played (IMHA)

A) To prove to yourself what you can do

To feel like a rocket designer/astronaut/spacemissionplaner/alloftheaboveandmore.

C) To boldly go where no kerb had ever been before (the thrill and wonder of exploration and discovery.)

B is always going to be there to an extent, and it and A can be enhanced through the contract system. (I'd love more contracts based on the activity RL space probes have done.) But C is currently not that well encouraged, (IMHO).

I had always hoped science would be more like the exploration in WWi Sport resort, with lots of things to see and record, and a nice map thing to show your data:

Like this, but for a planet. They wouldn't have to be things like the anomalies, just interesting terrain features, more thorough than 'biomes'.

It is possible that something like this could still be added on top of the biome system.

I think the completion of the tech-tree could be the trigger for unlocking the (eventual) planet discovery system. Especially if detailed info on the already visible planets isn't just readily available. If done right, the astronomy centre (or whatever) could provide little bits of info and imagery to tempt you to travel, and experience those far of planets.

I just find it funny that there would be a civilization, even a fictitious one, that invents gimbaled rocket engines before they invent the wheel...

I don't think they necessary invented the wheel second (then again, they might have...), just that these are specific wheels designed for space, inspired by parts unlocked previously.

[LordCorwin]

I also feel the same. Sometimes I sense the lack of a deep purpose to get on those beautiful places. I enjoy walking on the surface for a while, but may be some requirements for long survey missions would be a good addition, or some missions requiring to build something on ground, etc.

[Belphegor]

i agree, the rush of your first succesfull landing on a body is quickly replaced with boredom and 10 minutes later you are already constructing the next spacecraft.. sometimes it feels like 'i just did all this trouble to plant a flag and walk a circle why should i do it again?'

it would be nice if an independant way of gaining funds would be implemented in carreer mode so we don't have to do the same contracts over and over again after completing the tech tree. it could even give a purpose to your own missions, for example in the form of government funding for every RL hour a surface base or orbital station with the right modules has (in-)direct contact with KSC trough com. satelites. your own lovingly crafted bases would be practical instead of just pretty to look at, and they would pay themselves back, eventually with profit so in long term you get less dependant on contracts as you expand your space program.

something similar to the above in vanilla could add a crapload of goals and missions you can set up for yourself without having the feeling that it's a lot of trouble for something that has no practical use what-so-ever. i know the devs will eventually add more 'goals' and that gameplay is more important now so i'm sure this 'emptyness' will fade as future updates come and go

yes i know.. 'sandox'.. 'mods'..

[Mister Spock]

Yep, I agree, there needs to be more to do after landing. Fine Print sounds like a good start. I'm also hoping the mod Modular Konolization System (MKS) will offer some ground-based goals and challenges. Mining substrate, building a base, flying in new modules, using rovers to gather things together, manufacturing parts in situ, etc. I haven't unlocked all of the MKS goodies yet, so I can't say for sure.

[Tommygun]

I had always hoped science would be more like the exploration in WWi Sport resort, with lots of things to see and record, and a nice map thing to show your data:

Like this, but for a planet. They wouldn't have to be things like the anomalies, just interesting terrain features, more thorough than 'biomes'.

I've wanted something like this too. Randomly generated anomalies like high concentrations of certain minerals, organic compounds or magnetic fields from metallic ore deposits etc.

[cwhiz]

Yea, that's my biggest complaint. My hope is that whatever big feature SQUAD is working on will address this very issue. The planets need more reasons to stay for longer.

[Tw1]

i agree, the rush of your first succesfull landing on a body is quickly replaced with boredom and 10 minutes later you are already constructing the next spacecraft.. sometimes it feels like 'i just did all this trouble to plant a flag and walk a circle why should i do it again?'

I find landings are more interesting when you have your own goals on the ground, and exercise your imagination. This is one reason I tend to play very slowly, so each mission has more importance, and is more investing. I like to look around, and muck about.

This is why I like to roleplay. If it feels like you're making history, if there's a story behind the mission :E.g. Bill and crew have been stranded on Duna. To make use of the time between the arrival of the rescue ship and the return window, they drove a rover to the pole and back. then you have motivation to continue.

I had hoped the science would support roleplay, giving involved activities to do while on the surface. One problem I see with the collect-to-complete process is it promotes the opposite of slow, involved play- go in, get the important stuff done, get out. To motivate that type of play, you must provide things to experience.

This is one difficulty the Devs must face-the more detail you add in, the less you leave free for the person interacting with the media to imagine. But not enough, and the imagination won't be adequately stimulated.

Perhaps first landings should be more of a big deal. The moon landing was widely anticipated, and watched. Plus, many people follow the progress of space probes, and definitely would follow the activities of a long term manned mission. Perhaps there could be some sense of kerbal civilisation watching you as you progress, (Maybe, kerbals who cheer as you land, news articles at the space centre recapping your movements over the planets, stuff like that,). Ideally, this respond to what you do, rather than anticipate, or prompt, so it feels like they're looking to see what you do, rather than telling you to do stuff. Though some speculation would be ok.

However, problem could be that at the moment, you're not really encouraged to maximise use of time on missions. You can always launch a whole new mission to visit that biome across the way, so why bother taking a long trip in a rover? Irl, we maximise what we get from each probe because getting things into space takes time, and is expensive.

Some things that could motivate people to stay- things to record or discover that are short distances away. Experiments that take time to complete. Experiments that require you to cover distance, or change location to complete. Something you can collect, like data, or kerbal experience, or something as you move about. Records of what areas you've been to.

I've wanted something like this too. Randomly generated anomalies like high concentrations of certain minerals, organic compounds or magnetic fields from metallic ore deposits etc.

Perhaps once the tech tree is done, science points could be 'spent' on research into the planet they came from, to reveal science hotspots- some sort of specific target area with interesting properties.

Strange geology, clues to the planet, or the solar system's past, possible signs of past life, etc. But the trouble still is what to do with them when you get there.

Perhaps surface activities could be imagined with a mini-game approach. Put the drill in several places to find all the data, photo-document the strange hill, etc.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Tw1