The Uncertain Definition of Humanity - Will we embrace the coming era of cyberization

[Idobox]

What makes you guys think that cyborgs would require any less medical support? People with prostheses and medical implants today require regular maintenance and monitoring. Meat is self-repairing and amazingly resilient. The fact that most people's bodies last for decades with a very light maintenance regime puts most machines to shame. If I maintained the machines I'm responsible for in my working life as casually as we maintain the personnel I'd get sacked because they'd all be broken.

That's true for young people. Have you recently checked how fast a 70 yo person's muscle heal? It's scary.

You seem to be missing the fact that private insurance companies make more money off of healthy people than sick ones, so healthy cyborgs who pay low premiums and rarely get sick are pretty attractive customers from their perspective.

If cyborgs spend less on healthcare than average, insurance companies will propose loans to buy the augmentations. Paying upfront, hoping the customer will stay loyal and earn you more money is suicidal for a company.

What is more likely is that many augmentations will never be cost effective (eyes with pentachromy don't allows healthcare savings for example), which means that socialist countries will pay for some, and other countries will see the gap between the rich and the poor have even more concrete consequences than today.

[m4v]

eh, people aren't suffering accidents and losing limbs at every turn (since the we generally put more emphasis in prevention rather than curing) so augmentation due to injury, disease or birth defect isn't going to be something common, and really, who is going to trade a healthy body for an artificial one? or even just an arm? sure, some might, but even if is better artificial is still artificial and my arm is my goddamn arm.

When I played Deus Ex: HR I always found hilarious that everyone was putting their limbs into chopping machines and becoming dependent of a prosthetic manufacturer for life.

Edited August 29, 2014 by m4v

[Idobox]

eh, people aren't suffering accidents and losing limbs at every turn (since the we generally put more emphasis in prevention rather than curing) so augmentation due to injury, disease or birth defect isn't going to be something common, and really, who is going to trade a healthy body for an artificial one? or even just an arm? sure, some might, but even if is better artificial is still artificial and my arm is my goddamn arm.

When I played Deus Ex: HR I always found hilarious that everyone was putting their limbs into chopping machines and becoming dependent of a prosthetic manufacturer for life.

If I could get artificial legs that are significantly more powerful, resistant, and never get tired, without loosing sensitivity or autonomy, I would be a customer. Nothing wrong with my legs, but I'd enjoy running faster and longer, or not being tired after a 12 hours hike in the mountains.

And I would also pay to see in more colors and with higher resolution, or to expand my hearing sensitivity and spectrum.

I like my body, but I'd prefer a better one

[Ralathon]

eh, people aren't suffering accidents and losing limbs at every turn (since the we generally put more emphasis in prevention rather than curing) so augmentation due to injury, disease or birth defect isn't going to be something common, and really, who is going to trade a healthy body for an artificial one? or even just an arm? sure, some might, but even if is better artificial is still artificial and my arm is my goddamn arm.

When I played Deus Ex: HR I always found hilarious that everyone was putting their limbs into chopping machines and becoming dependent of a prosthetic manufacturer for life.

I don't know about you, but I don't have any particular emotional investment into my body other than it happens to be the place I live in. If I could replace it with a machine that can easily be expanded and tweaked to suit anything I feel like, I'd jump at the chance.

My arms are sublime instruments perfected by many millions of years of evolution and current prosthetics don't hold a candle to them in terms of functionality. But if we manage to make a suitable computer-brain interface in the future and the prosthetics continue to become more sensitive and refined I can see a point where an artificial hand will be just as good as a normal hand. Sure, you have to replace it due to wear and tear every so often, but if it breaks it is much easier to fix and functionality does not decrease with age. Want to become a good tennis player in your 70's with a purely biological body? Forget it.

[Aningaaq]

I don't know about you, but I don't have any particular emotional investment into my body other than it happens to be the place I live in. If I could replace it with a machine that can easily be expanded and tweaked to suit anything I feel like, I'd jump at the chance.

My arms are sublime instruments perfected by many millions of years of evolution and current prosthetics don't hold a candle to them in terms of functionality. But if we manage to make a suitable computer-brain interface in the future and the prosthetics continue to become more sensitive and refined I can see a point where an artificial hand will be just as good as a normal hand. Sure, you have to replace it due to wear and tear every so often, but if it breaks it is much easier to fix and functionality does not decrease with age. Want to become a good tennis player in your 70's with a purely biological body? Forget it.

Healthy replacement for tennis: Fly fishing.

[Tarrow]

and really, who is going to trade a healthy body for an artificial one? or even just an arm.

Honest answer? I would. If I could swap my lesser-used right hand and arm for one that was geniunely stronger and more flexible whilst maintaining the same sensory input as a biological arm I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Why? It'd have a massive effect on my work productivity. I get paid by the job and work fairly long hours so being able to reduce those hours without reducing my income would make me very happy. And that's before getting into things like the possibility of modular job optimised hands. Or the entertainment value of "hey, I remapped my arm connections to the throttle, steering and brakes of my car - I can drive with my brain."

Edited September 1, 2014 by Tarrow

[m4v]

I don't think everyone is really pondering the consequences of trading your healthy limbs for artificial ones because that choice currently doesn't exist, so the prosthetics limbs imagined here are idealised almost perfect pieces of equipment that really aren't going to be a reality.

Why? It'd have a massive effect on my work productivity. I get paid by the job and work fairly long hours so being able to reduce those hours without reducing my income would make me very happy.

Would it? your productivity increase would have to compensate your increased expenses due to the cost and maintenance of your new limbs, and why wouldn't an average person with the right tools (or a robot) do the same job more cheaply?.

And unless full body replacement is possible, artificial limbs aren't going to be much more stronger than their flesh and bone counter parts, since it would be pointless to have limbs that can lift this much weight if you get an injured spine because of it.

Edited September 1, 2014 by m4v

[78stonewobble]

That's true for young people. Have you recently checked how fast a 70 yo person's muscle heal? It's scary.

Nature's way of saying it's time to pull over and let someone else overtake.

I don't wanna tell people they can't have kids, due to people scared of letting nature take it's course.

I like kids way more than old people.

[Ralathon]

Nature's way of saying it's time to pull over and let someone else overtake.

No, it's nature's way of saying "Hey umm, I never bothered to design you fleshbags to live past 45 because I only care about reproduction... So yea, waranty's void."

[Seret]

artificial limbs aren't going to be much more stronger than their flesh and bone counter parts, since it would be pointless to have limbs that can lift this much weight if you get an injured spine because of it.

This. You can't just upgrade an integrated system like this piecemeal. No point having a super-strong durable arm if it's just going to result in your shoulder and back getting quickly injured.

Robotic arms already outperform humans in terms of precision, strength and repeatability. Even if they also gained our dexterity and sensitivity then there's still not a lot to be gained by grafting them permanently to a human. If you required a human in the system it would make more sense to go with teleoperation or an exoskeleton. Chopping off healthy limbs is extremely unlikely to be acceptable to most people.

[trekkie_]

I doubt we'll ever have physical replacement augmentations of healthy individuals, even in the military. a lot would have to change for such a reality to be acceptable to society. we'd be better off finding external ways of accomplishing the same things. A person doesn't need a super strong or even normal robotic arm or leg or anything like that.

Even if it had sensory perception, there's no way it would ever really be the same as having a real hand no matter how well it's designed. your hand wouldn't squish the same when it's pressed against something, the feel of blood rushing through your hands veins, although taken for granted, will be noticed when gone. This would definitely affect sensory perception. Things like skin oil, moisture and temperature contribute to how things feel. And keep in mind, sensory perception isn't only on the surface....you feel within your body too.

Even the allure of being stronger and faster, doesn't make up for the willful loss of a limb. You also have to consider that these things have to be attached to you somehow, which generally involves bands and straps, which limits the capability of the limb. It's just not going to be as attached to you as a real limb. There's going to be some kind of brace that needs to actually cover a large area without slipping.

Take this guy for example:

How much weight do you think he can lift or pull on before his arm pops off? Or let's say he falls and tries to stop himself on the way down even. I'm sure stubs get extra sore too. So you may have 2 robot arms and legs, but when you take them off at night to hook them up to the charger and lay there in bed....you're just a quad amputee by choice LOL.

I think prosthetic replacements are going to remain limited to those that need it, and then be phased out mostly once we can regrow limbs.

What you should really ask yourself is how often the 'benefits' of a cybernetic body part will help you day to day....and then realize you can replace that same need with external equipment rather than implants.

But if we live in a world where you can regrow flesh and blood limbs affordably, the consequences of trading them out for a little while might be negligible. But even then, why replace a limb when you can probably just put on some kind of power glove over your hand or a power suit at that point.

Things like communication augmentations (i.e. internet) with a completely neural interface in your mind, would probably be more acceptable by society.

Edited September 1, 2014 by trekkie_

[andrew123]

My thought of the most effective solution to those attachment issues is a full body prosthetic.

Of course, unless they need it, or have no alternative, I doubt they'd choose it.

Also, large straps to hold limbs in place? Have you seen the the advances in bio compatible and artificial skeletal engineering recently? If anything, the first augmentations will be minimally invasive, such as bone reinforcement through titanium foam, or brain implants for network access.

http://www.fraunhofer.de/en/press/research-news/2010/09/titanium-foams-replace-injured-bones.html

Edited September 1, 2014 by andrew123

[Seret]

My thought of the most effective solution to those attachment issues is a full body prosthetic.

Do you mean like an exoskeleton? That's the route being pursued by research looking to enhance mobility for old folks or increase load-carrying capacity for military personnel.

[andrew123]

Do you mean like an exoskeleton? That's the route being pursued by research looking to enhance mobility for old folks or increase load-carrying capacity for military personnel.

No. I mean literally replacing everything except for your brain.

[Godot]

No. I mean literally replacing everything except for your brain.

Cylorg-Andrew then may be in for a bad surprise if he is affected by an EMP weapon.

Or forgets to recharge he batteries of the cyborg body (or these fail)

[Ralathon]

Cylorg-Andrew then may be in for a bad surprise if he is affected by an EMP weapon.

Or forgets to recharge he batteries of the cyborg body (or these fail)

You're just trading one weakness for another. Yes you're now vulnerable to EMP weapons, but you can completely ignore carbon monoxide poisoning. Yes, you'll now die if you forget to charge yourself, but you no longer need to eat and drink (much).

Dunno about you but smoke poisoning is a lot more common than EMP weapons and its not like electric outlets are hard to find. Its a good deal in my opinion.

[andrew123]

You're just trading one weakness for another. Yes you're now vulnerable to EMP weapons, but you can completely ignore carbon monoxide poisoning. Yes, you'll now die if you forget to charge yourself, but you no longer need to eat and drink (much).

Dunno about you but smoke poisoning is a lot more common than EMP weapons and its not like electric outlets are hard to find. Its a good deal in my opinion.

Maintenance is the cost of freedom.

Although it seems that some people didn't get my gist: I would never get invasive cyberizations unless they were necessary for my survival or my job depended on it.

Edited September 2, 2014 by andrew123

[rtxoff]

Do we really have to become cyborgs to survive on this planet? I don't have a good feeling about this, definitely nothing for me.

[Seret]

Do we really have to become cyborgs to survive on this planet?

No. Is anyone suggesting we do?

[Idobox]

Augmentations don't just mean artificial limbs people.

You can improve sensory organs, reinforce bones, replace muscles by something better, add Kevlar under the skin to make it "bulletproof", or add elastomers here and there to make locomotion more efficient (like sharks). You can also replace organs like the kidneys or pancreas, to make them more efficient or increase their capacities (for example an artificial organ that burns excess cholesterol).

Then for limbs: you can't easily use limbs that are much stronger than an athlete's ones, for sure. But guess what, lots of people are not athletes and might be interested. If artificial limbs allow old people to have strength and joints similar to what they had in their 20s, there will be customers.

It is also perfectly possible to attach a prosthesis directly to the skeleton, but is almost never done because of the risks of infection. If you can grow skin over it, or find a good way to seal the skin/machine junction, there is no reason not to (Maybe not attach the whole prosthesis to the bone, but attach a kind of anchor point that sticks out, to keep maintenance easy).

EMPs are rarely encountered, and it is possible to defend against them. Military equipment is generally EMP hardened, it is a bit more expensive and heavy, but nothing crazy, totally feasible if you worry about EMP.

Battery is a problem, of course. But if the augmentation is critical, you would have alarms ringing long before you run out of juice. If the augmentation is essential (life support for example), you could always add an emergency battery to keep the user alive long enough for emergency services to find them, non-rechargeable and expensive to discourage them to rely on it.

[Idobox]

By the way, you should check Ossür's "power knee". It is a robot leg for amputees, and it's really awesome.

They can't connect it directly to you nervous system, so they put sensors on the other leg, and guess what you want it to do. But I know for a fact that they, and others, are looking actively into neural interfaces.

[Godot]

Do we really have to become cyborgs to survive on this planet? I don't have a good feeling about this, definitely nothing for me.

Of course not ...

IMHO there are only few uses that cyborgs could do better than robots / remote controlled units.

One potential use (for a cyborg like andrew envisioned (i.e. biological brain in a total mechanoid body)) IMHO would be astronauts.

A human brain still is superior to all AI algorithms in situations where you require flexible decision making (and probably will remain for a long time)

So, with cyborg astronauts we could send human presences to other planets (like Mars or the jovian moons) with only a fraction of the life support that human astronauts would need,

and would have something out there, that is superior to probes (insofar as they can decide flexibly for any situations that might arise there, without requiring contact to ground control [together with the logn traveling time for the signals])

Smaller implants however (like replacement limbs or cybernetic neuroenhancements) may be very useful for mankind

Edited September 2, 2014 by Godot

[Rainbowtrout]

1. Researchers believe that they now know the path of development to a much more reliable and non destructive brain computer interface chip. With these advances, coupled with the exponential growth in computing power and the advances in prosthetics, do you, KSP forum goers, believe that we will achieve full body prosthesis superior to that of our natural bodies?

Yes. We don't need upgrading, we need fixing. If these dreams of stellar glory are to come true, we need to ditch our humanity. Literally.

2. If so, would you willingly choose to do so or refuse given the risk of computer security, or even on your moral grounds?

I would do so. I would assume that there would be at least decent protection, maybe sticking a future-USB into my arm can make it better

3. What about financial considerations? Do you believe that your insurance will cover these future operations?

Not really. In all honesty, it depends on why I would need/want/like to have this done to me. If it's "so I can carry more drinks for friends" they'd laugh me off. If it's "I need this to work in high-danger areas to further human life", it may be more acceptable.

4. Would you only accept augmentations in emergencies?

I would receive augmentation regardless of whether it was an emergency or not, so long as it does not cause an immediate emergency to me.

5. Do you believe that companies will discriminate against employees without augmentations due to lower capability? The other way around due to medical costs?

Of course. Stronger, faster, smarter, better - employers often look for that, augmentation will meet the goals.

6. Would you willingly fall in love with a cyborg?

I'm not a firm believer in the common forms of love, but so long as the cyborg in question and I are in "love", I would.

7. Finally, a more personal question. If, as a parent, your child was dying and could only be saved by receiving full-body prosthesis, would you allow them to die, or would you allow them to receive it? I ask this because, after speaking to my mother, she said that when a human is put into that type of a situation, they must be allowed to naturally die. I, on the other hand, believe that a full prosthesis is preferable to possible oblivion.

Depends. Emotions change at high times of stress, in desperation, I would agree. Rationally, maybe not.

PS: 8. How do you think we'll solve the problems with reproduction? I wonder how scientists will solve that issue, but I'll leave that up to your imaginations.

A way will be found.