Essential knowledge for a kerbin space center... in space.

[CodatheSpaceFox]

Firstly, sorry for any ridiculous ramblings, it's quite late, or early in the morning for me. So my english may drift away.

So I'm finally at that point in my ksp skillbook where docking has become second nature, and I'm starting... slowly... to really step up with orbital construction, and thus have been taking some of the strain off the launchpads with with much lighter lifting stages to make things happen.

I've also been working with a few mods, lately, OKS/MKS and Karbonite as the focus point here, which leaves a lot more focus on base construction and resource management. Even though the only thing I have is a one launch space... crucifix, in my sandbox test save. My goal next is to start running through the motions of establishing some self sufficiency, and moving my focus on not what I can get into space, but what I can actually do once I am in space.

So physically what I'm thinking is maybe a simple refueling station around kerbin, maybe an LKO karbonite scooper to get some resources flowing for minor needs, like keeping a few starter RCS tugs fueled and operating. Then perhaps reaching out to the Mun to make my first real attempt at drilling, and perhaps set up a surface settlement. Although, I may drop the OKS/MKS mod, for the sake of not killing kerbals by forgetting to pack extra bags of chips. So really the fuel station aspect is what I'm focusing on.

That leaves me with some simple questions, are there any pointers to making this task a bit easier for a challenged player to get started on this? Maybe instead change my focus to something like landing on a foreign body and actually coming back before I bother with this? I'd also appreciate any tips on how to manage with limited hardware, I can tolerate 5 frames while docking to an average part count station, but I can see landing and the like becoming a pain in the ass when too many parts are involved.

[psyper]

Well I built a refuel station in LKO in my old sandbox game:

I sent up the structure first and then sent up empty orange tanks and rcs (this was way back when I was bad at docking and needed tonnes of the stuff!) at 4 at at a time.

And then set up a Kethane base on Minmus - harder to intercept but lower gravity = less dv to lift the fuel off. I converted the kethane at the base and transported the resulting fuel to a fuel depot (similar to above but with 8 orange tanks) - I then had a large fuel tanker transporting the fuel from Minmus to Kerban using aerobreaking around kerban each trip.

My minmus base:

I've since upgraded my ksp and started a career game with the tech-tree already maxed out and I have kerbanite installed now instead of kethane - its much heavier and I would suggest creating a ship which has several empty orange tanks and a drill, converter and a small kerbanite tank - land, drill and convert insitu and then transport the fuel back up to an waiting station.

Edited August 27, 2014 by psyper

[Kasuha]

Refueling station in orbit is cool idea. Minimalistic but functional refueling station consists of about:

- orange tank

- large monopropellant container

- probe core (preferably 2.5 m diameter)

- large reaction wheel

- battery (Z-4K)

- docking port Sr on each end

- two docking ports (standard) attached radially

- two docking ports jr. attached radially

- a few OX-STAT panels around the circumference or two PB-NUKs stuck to sides

- eventually a few radially attached xenon containers

It can hold all types of fuel

You can control it and orient for docking

You can later extend it with further modules such as habitation module or module with solar panels

[CodatheSpaceFox]

Thanks for the input! and that's a wonderful piece of work for getting started, psyper. I need to reacquaint myself with outward branching motors for landing designs.

So here's another question, when building things like orbital tugs and the like, how would I design it right so as to not chew up extra dV trying to move full tanks? Perhaps attach a few test tanks while still in VAB and check it's twr? Or is there a better method to this madness?

[Wanderfound]

Some basic space station tips:

1) Remember that you can lift tanks empty. If you're building an orbital refuelling station, lift the station empty then fill it up later. You're going to have to establish some sort of refilling system anyway, so you may as well start with it.

2) Part count. Lag becomes extreme if you have a chunky space station with half a dozen spaceplanes docked to it. Use a few big tanks rather than lots of small ones (this goes for RCS/batteries/etc. as well), and don't be afraid to deorbit things that are no longer required. Try not to let the parking lot get too cluttered.

3) Lighting. You want to be able to see it clearly from distance when you're coming in to dock. In particular, you want some lights aimed at the docking ports.

4) Probe cores. Make sure that there's at least one on board somewhere. Disable its battery as an emergency electricity reserve.

5) Placement: where do you want it? The lower the orbit the easier it is to get to. OTOH, a refuelling station in a high orbit lets you go further.

6) Solar panels. If you're planning on having a laboratory on board, don't skimp on the solar. Lab work sucks up the juice like nothing else.

[Zylark]

In my current Career, I got myself set up with a MKS base on Mun that amongst other things also provide a healthy amount of Karbonite.

By using the Logistics module of MKS, that Kethane get transported up to my Mun Station that also refines it into LFO and Monoprop. Great thing about the Logistics Module, is that it is automatic - no need to go down to the base manually, pump over the Karbonite, then back to orbit and then process it after docking with the Station. Though I do have a vessel for just that hanging off the back of the Station from before the Logistic Module actually worked...

As you can see, the Mun Station is modular. There are room for three more Jumbos' in addition to the one who is already there plus of course the central big SLS tank that came with 23.5. From this station, fuel can be transported wherever I need it, like say to my Transfer Station in Kerbin orbit.

Here with a couple of shuttles and a lander attached. Much the same design as the Mun Station, but no refinery bits or Logistics Module. Plenty of places to hook up more large fuel tanks, but due to not having needed to so far, I've not expanded it quite yet. Here too I can attach four radial Jumbos' and if need be plug another large SLS tank at the end with 4 new DockingPort Sr. for more Jumbos'.

This station also have room to keep 8 Kerbals happy for some time (I use Life Support mod) whilst they are waiting for some ship to take them outbound or back to KSC.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Zylark

[Sirine]

That leaves me with some simple questions, are there any pointers to making this task a bit easier for a challenged player to get started on this? Maybe instead change my focus to something like landing on a foreign body and actually coming back before I bother with this? I'd also appreciate any tips on how to manage with limited hardware, I can tolerate 5 frames while docking to an average part count station, but I can see landing and the like becoming a pain in the ass when too many parts are involved.

1) Learn to Read the "Nav-Ball". (Example:- You can achieve Lower Kerbin Orbin (LKO) with IVA view only).

2) Making a collection of "Standard Subassembly lifter" to lift your payload, start with 25tons, 50tons, 75tons, 100tons. With as minimum part count as possible. (Example:- Only 41 parts for 100tons lifter).

3) Define a standard Kerbin orbit. Example:- Interplanetary 70kmx70km(Kerbin), Refueling station 250kmx250km(Kerbin),Mun Research Station (8kmx8km),Minmus Research Station (8kmx8km).

4) Use One big batteries + stock RTG (Greatly reduce part count and fancy solar panel display, hence improve performance).

5) Skip the lighting, Its performance killer. Land on daylight, and dock on daylight. I have no excuse on not doing it on daylight.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Sirine

[CodatheSpaceFox]

1) Learn to Read the "Nav-Ball". (Example:- You can achieve Lower Kerbin Orbin (LKO) with IVA view only).

2) Making a collection of "Standard Subassembly lifter" to lift your payload, start with 25tons, 50tons, 75tons, 100tons. With as minimum part count as possible. (Example:- Only 41 parts for 100tons lifter).

3) Define a standard Kerbin orbit. Example:- Interplanetary 70kmx70km(Kerbin), Refueling station 250kmx250km(Kerbin),Mun Research Station (8kmx8km),Minmus Research Station (8kmx8km).

4) Use One big batteries + stock RTG (Greatly reduce part count and fancy solar panel display, hence improve performance).

5) Skip the lighting, Its performance killer. Land on daylight, and dock on daylight. I have no excuse on not doing it on daylight.

1) I only fly by nav-ball now, for a while I tried to fly from the camera perspective, the result was typical. I also have the improved nav-ball mod, which saves a LOT of time finding where to aim for the burn. (I swear, too many ships have been left out of power and rotating endlessly due to power failures for me.)

2) I'm trying to learn the true trick to low part count "vanilla" lifters. lately the only mod I've employed in my construction is tweakscale, but that's only because the large orange tank is not my favorite glow stick to stare at during assent.

3) 250km huh? Noted. I understand the 70km for interplanetary in regards to the Oberth Effect, but I haven't understood the refueling station being so much higher.

4) Huh. Smart. I can take advantage of the UbioZur welding mod for this, keep my part count low while making a reliable power source.

5) I have gotten used to docking in the dark when necessary, but I usually zero out my relative velocity to my target and then time warp to the soonest point of light, it really does make the task easier.

As long as I'm touching bases here (no pun intended) I guess I can touch up on the last of my problems.

1) I'm still grasping precision landings, as in landing where I intended too in the first place without chewing through delta-v from overcompensation. This is the case on Kerbin and it's moons. As I haven't really made many attempts to go interplanetary.

2) Should I invest in utilities like RCS tugs and the like? I devised a two tug system for my soon to attempt 3 arm circular station to assemble it, but would it make more sense for me to try and dock tanks with the upper stage instead of ditching the upper stage to the surface and picking up the tank from the base itself? I suppose it could shorten the trip, but I see a lot of ridiculous part counts occur from too much multipurposing of single use vessels like lifters. At least when I build them.

3) why do I feel building something like this is necessary in the first place? I can understand orbital construction when it comes to interplanetary trips, but all this just so I can launch a vessel up empty and fuel it up in LKO? Of course I love the thought of self sufficiency and the tedious efforts that are somehow entertaining, but I am finding my patience with all this (and my limited hardware issue) is leaving me to grind my teeth and build more things into single launches. Makes me wonder if I should just rely on lifting equipment and fuel and just toss my establishment ideas.

4) Any tips on making simple yet aesthetically satisfying vessels?

[Zylark]

- You'd like a pretty high orbit for your fuel-depot due to convenience in getting to it. Say you've sent up a vessel dry to a 150km orbit, before circularizing you transfer the last remnants of fuel from the booster before decoupling that and let it de-orbit by itself. With your vessel now at 150km orbit and having enough fuel to let you have around 200dV to play with, all you need is plot a course to intercept your fuel-depot which is up at 250km. Unless you really timed your launch, that means doing a few laps around Kerbin before an economic (less than 80dV) window opens. Being above 140km means more time-compression available. So rather than wait several minutes staring at your vessel going round and round at 100x, you'll spend a minute or less at 1000x. Do use Kerbal Alarm Clock to not miss your maneuver node...

- For docking more or less blind, the Docking Port Alignment mod is just great. Easy to read, easy to use.

- For assembling big parts my approach is to use the last stage of the booster with some RCS thrusters bolted onto it. So if say my part weighs 20Tons, I use the 40Ton booster - not the 20Ton booster. That way the last stage got enough fuel to get to where the part is supposed to go, even transfer over some fuel when done bolting it onto the Station or Big-Ship, and have enough fuel to de-orbit the stage. For smaller parts I tend to use an SSTO plus a small RCS tug.

- Getting big heavy stuff to orbit cost a ton in career, so building an infrastructure that can support new missions and vessels for virtually free will greatly stretch your budget. In sandbox, it makes less sense apart from the coolness factor.

- Building simple - or complex for that matter - pretty vessels is easier using parts mods. There you can get stuff like bigger batteries, nuclear reactors to provide power rather than a complex array of brittle solar-panels, alternative fuels and engines with their own pros and cons, and the list goes on.

[CodatheSpaceFox]

That actually makes a lot of sense now that I think about it, thanks for the input. I intend to build my way through sandbox at first to get a feel for this type of gameplay, but maybe I shouldn't do that for fear of not having everything in career to play with.

[psyper]

Thanks for the input! and that's a wonderful piece of work for getting started, psyper. I need to reacquaint myself with outward branching motors for landing designs.

So here's another question, when building things like orbital tugs and the like, how would I design it right so as to not chew up extra dV trying to move full tanks? Perhaps attach a few test tanks while still in VAB and check it's twr? Or is there a better method to this madness?

Twr isn't really a problem in space - less engines longer burns. I have one which has 10 orange tanks and 4 nukes just for symmetry. I could get away with just 2 radial or 1 behind but the thrust times at manouver nodes would just get crazy.

I did this for a different use but you get the idea. I tend to like modular ideas so you can add more tanks to the back. I'm away from my saves so can't get a shot of my original fuel transporter.