Laser pointer and airliner

[Tex_NL]

Well, tbh, these cases get blown out of proportion. This happens all the time, and still these laser pointers are not banned. Yes, they can "cause distraction", they don't blind anyone. Its like pilots complaining about solar-farms blinding them, but its more like a bright spot in your view, you simply get distracted, not blinded. Thats not nice, but its not catastrophic.

...

If they don't hurt people why are there so many people with burned retina's after looking directly into a laser pointer?

This is just one example http://www.laserpointersafety.com/news/news/nonaviation-incidents_files/3b9a99cb68143bbdde886a8b40f60d15-101.php. His eyes did recover but it did take six months.

And they don't actually have to damage your eyes to be (temporarily) blinded. Every had a car coming right at you at night with his high beams on? Clearly not. It doesn't hurt and doesn't do damage but you won't see anything except the large blur of the headlights. And the effect lasts considerable time after the lights have gone.

If this happens to a commercial airline pilot on final approach it DOES create a very dangerous situation, potentially putting hundreds of peoples lives at stake.

If kids do this it can be considered mischief. If an adult does it it borders on attempted murder.

[lajoswinkler]

I'm speaking as an owner of a highpower laser here.

There are several factors accounting for the level of danger. Wavelength, distance, ray power and ray divergence come to mind. We also have to consider "distraction", "glare", "flash blindness" and "ocular injury" as stages.

Basic laserpointers we've all seen are 5 mW and red. Even from immediate vicinity like 1 metre, they can not deliver enough energy to one's eye before the reflex closes the eyelids. They will cause glare and high distraction, though. That's why those lasers are perfectly fine for majority of people.

Green has a smaller wavelength and thus is a bit more dangerous. Eyelid reflex is not sufficient, but the delivered energy is not sufficient for permanent eye damage unless fired right in front of the iris into the retina. If you want a laser pointer for presentations in office or elsewhere, I recommend 1 miliwatt power for green and 5 for red.

For pinpointing stars outside cities, a 10 mW green laser is fine, but be careful with it.

Higher powers means more energy per unit of time. Anything above 5 mW is dangerous for people who don't know what they're doing. Most people don't. They think laser rays are flashlights.

In the last decade high powered handheld lasers have become widely available. Some people who are into lasers and know what they're doing can now buy them and safely do experiments or whatever nice they're planning to do. That's cool.

Unfortunatelly, that also means lots of stupid folks can get them. A moron with 800 USD can get handheld 2 watt lasers. That's 2000 mW and enough to make the unfocused ray set a pile of newspapers on fire from a distance of few metres in just a second or two. Imagine can such ray do to one's retina, which is extremely delicate and precious. It's sufficiently powerful that a diffused reflection off a floor or a nearby wall can cause instant permanent damage.

Consider this chart.

It's pretty much correct.

To summarize, never ever point a laserbeam into an airplane.

There are cases when that's harmless (low power ray, high flying plane), but there are legal issues you have to consider, too. Just don't do it, ever.

In cases where a plane is about to land and you fire a high power ray into the cockpit, you will probably cause a disaster with lots of deaths and that will put you to lifetime prison in civilized states and countries and, sadly, you might get murdered in the noncivilized ones.

[Pawelk198604]

I remember once as teen I had a damaged knee joint, doctor recommended laser therapy and cryotherapy, I had no objections to cryotherapy because I heard that it relieves pain, but I was wondering what would give me this whole laser therapy, but the doctor knows better.

During laser therapy nurse told me to setup an goggles, joked that they will be here to do nuclear test:-) She said it was because of safety reasons, because even deflects the laser beam may damage my eyes.

She also said that the medical laser used for laser therapy has a lot more power than the laser in the DVD recorder or laser pointers.

She said that this type of lasers in Poland are not available in a normal sale. Although, as someone wants to can buy similar equipment on the city electronic market (she said that is held two times a month and "kujony" nerds interested in electronic meet there, although some of sales it is not exactly in accordance with the law:-)

I asked if she says it seriously, said she was not joking, that if someone really want it can buy even X-ray tube but it is not exactly wise:D

[lajoswinkler]

You can buy a lot of things, Pawel. You can even build an x-ray tube if you know how, but it's easier to just buy it. X-ray photography is quite popular tiny niche of photography.

I don't know what the law says about possession of high powered lasers, but shooting them at people is a physical attack and therefore a crime. Such lasers are a form or a nonlethal weapon capable of inducing 100% disability. I worry about stupid kids getting their hands on those things.

[Pawelk198604]

I worry about stupid kids getting their hands on those things.

Children doing various dumb things that can then affect the whole future life. For example, I've heard stories that happened to one kid with ADHD. The boy was a rascal, was grounded, the parents went to work, left the boy in the house, closed the door with a key.

Unfortunately, in the absence of parents, the boy went out the window of the apartment on the 1st floor because friends call him, the boy fell and broke his bones, the whole Fortunately it was the first floor, not the eighth or tenth, and it does not hurt his spinal cord , but spent most of the vacation in the hospital :-(

You pay for stupidity.

Returning to the subject of lasers, I think the kids that flash laser should be learned what damage they can cause, and give them but rather their parents hefty fine, but if it done by adult, he/she should get automatic prison sentence/

[*Aqua*]

I think the kids that flash laser should be learned what damage they can cause, and give them but rather their parents hefty fine, but if it done by adult, he/she should get automatic prison sentence/

Kids don't think of consequences. They only start developing this ability when they are at the age of ~11 years and it takes a lot more years until it can compare to an adult's one.

You can't fine them because of that. It's the parents whose are responsible for their child's actions. They know that you do not give things to a child which can be used as weapons.

[Nuke]

you know i dont think anyone's aim is that good. think about it you are going to track a moving target at several miles range. nobody's hand is that stable. you might be able to do it with a scope and tripod, but tracking is going to be very difficult. i think best results would be with an infrared camera on a scope, and have some image processing software do the tracking, this would be used to control a precision turret. i dont think its the kind of thing that "some kid" could pull off. now if you had several thousand bucks, some engineering skills, and a sick desire to make a plane crash, you could pull it off. not that im advocating anyone does that.

[Higgs]

you know i dont think anyone's aim is that good. think about it you are going to track a moving target at several miles range. nobody's hand is that stable. you might be able to do it with a scope and tripod, but tracking is going to be very difficult. i think best results would be with an infrared camera on a scope, and have some image processing software do the tracking, this would be used to control a precision turret. i dont think its the kind of thing that "some kid" could pull off. now if you had several thousand bucks, some engineering skills, and a sick desire to make a plane crash, you could pull it off. not that im advocating anyone does that.

too many idiots have done this to make as hard as you would suggest

heck, I just did a search on YOUTUBE for "pilots hit by laser" and returned over 2000 results. it is scary common and thusly scary EASY for this to happen. Do not underestimate either stupidity OR malice.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Higgs

[Pixel of Life]

you know i dont think anyone's aim is that good. think about it you are going to track a moving target at several miles range. nobody's hand is that stable. you might be able to do it with a scope and tripod, but tracking is going to be very difficult. i think best results would be with an infrared camera on a scope, and have some image processing software do the tracking, this would be used to control a precision turret. i dont think its the kind of thing that "some kid" could pull off. now if you had several thousand bucks, some engineering skills, and a sick desire to make a plane crash, you could pull it off. not that im advocating anyone does that.

You're missing the fact that you don't need to track the aircraft with the laser - with a sufficiently powerful device, just a quick flash of light is enough to temporarily or, in the worst case, permanently impair the pilots' vision. Although your hand only moves at a few cm/s, the other end of that laser beam is several kilometers away and will be moving at dozens, even hundreds of meters per second - and it might be several meters wide. That means it'll be covering a HUGE area every second. It also means that you're pretty much guaranteed to hit an aircraft if you point the beam in its general direction and move it around a bit. Hit a cloud and that 2-meter-wide beam might suddenly become a ball of light larger than the aircraft itself.

Don't do it, kids.

Edited October 19, 2014 by CaptainKorhonen

[YNM]

I wish this doesn't apply for the green lasers that's used to point at stars... Or I wish that I never have to do star pointing while near an airport.

[Guest]

It likely does. It takes a pretty strong laser to use in such manner. Generally, it's better to be careful at any time when using lasers, especially strong ones.

[Pawelk198604]

Kids don't think of consequences. They only start developing this ability when they are at the age of ~11 years and it takes a lot more years until it can compare to an adult's one.

You can't fine them because of that. It's the parents whose are responsible for their child's actions. They know that you do not give things to a child which can be used as weapons.

Yes you right we don't give knife to small children

[crazyewok]

I dont know why the concept is so hard to grasp of NOT POINTING LASERS AT AIRCRAFT!

If you stupid enough to do it then your deserve to be locked up as you obviously too stupid to be amongst normal people.

[crazyewok]

ive been nearly blinded on the road just driving around at night by a twit with a laser pointer. If you are stupid enough to point the thing at a pilot who is in control of what could amount to a guided missile with humans on it, you should be sent to gitmo for putting hundreds of lives at risk for a laugh

Yeah some teenage twats near me tried it once with a green laser pointer, nearly lost control of my car.

[cantab]

It likely does. It takes a pretty strong laser to use in such manner. Generally, it's better to be careful at any time when using lasers, especially strong ones.

You shouldn't actually need much power in a laser pointer used for stargazing. After all, it's an activity done in the dark. I'd still recommend not using one under a flightpath though.

[Pawelk198604]

I wonder if scientists could not to build some special filter glasses for pilots and drivers that were able to stop the laser beam?

[Kryten]

A filter to stop a green laser won't stop a red laser, and either would be heavily tinted. One to stop both would be basically opaque.

[CptRichardson]

A filter to stop a green laser won't stop a red laser, and either would be heavily tinted. One to stop both would be basically opaque.

I suppose auto-polarization screens just behind the windows could work, but there are issues with that, too.

[YNM]

I wish this doesn't apply for the green lasers that's used to point at stars... Or I wish that I never have to do star pointing while near an airport.

It likely does. It takes a pretty strong laser to use in such manner. Generally, it's better to be careful at any time when using lasers, especially strong ones.

You shouldn't actually need much power in a laser pointer used for stargazing. After all, it's an activity done in the dark. I'd still recommend not using one under a flightpath though.

I'm not sure, but all the lasers used for star pointing are green ones. The low-powered ones (like the red one) doesn't give you the "rod" that avoids parallax from another observer. Might be there should be an agreement because even international astronomy competition uses them, and areas around an airport are often darker... Common agreement only involves with ground objects (ie. don't illuminate the laser while the object you point is lower than a certain altitude). But accidents and coincidences could happen right ?

Edited October 19, 2014 by YNM

[lajoswinkler]

you know i dont think anyone's aim is that good. think about it you are going to track a moving target at several miles range. nobody's hand is that stable. you might be able to do it with a scope and tripod, but tracking is going to be very difficult. i think best results would be with an infrared camera on a scope, and have some image processing software do the tracking, this would be used to control a precision turret. i dont think its the kind of thing that "some kid" could pull off. now if you had several thousand bucks, some engineering skills, and a sick desire to make a plane crash, you could pull it off. not that im advocating anyone does that.

Refer to the table I've posted. If you have a green one stronger than 100 mW, you become a distraction to commercial planes above 11 km. The ray is powerful enough to still be intensive enough after 11 km trip through air where it gets widened and attenuated.

Extremely powerful green lasers are the worst combination because 532 nm radiation doesn't dissipate easily as blue, and is not attenuated as red. It's quite penetrating.

They are so powerful that can cause a pilot temporary afterimages in his retina even at that distance and even if you just swing the laser over the plane.

Today it's easy to build yourself a custom handheld laser with several watts of power. Chinese companies will sell you the diodes without asking any questions. It's not a bad thing - virtually anyone capable of doing such project won't be a jackass.

For example, this is a great guy I've been in contact with who does amazing projects. Be sure to check out his channel.

I wish this doesn't apply for the green lasers that's used to point at stars... Or I wish that I never have to do star pointing while near an airport.

Those lasers are usually 10-20 mW. Unless you're right at the airport and pointing at the cockpits, you're fine. Of course, every time you turn it on, check the sky for planes. Aircrafts have signal lights.

I suppose auto-polarization screens just behind the windows could work, but there are issues with that, too.

Spending money on developing such protection is futile, just like building a car what makes your survive a 250 km/h sideway impact. Some things happen so rarely that it's not profitable or useful to develop protection. It's a fact of life we have to deal with...

Edited October 19, 2014 by lajoswinkler

[WestAir]

My opinion is in the minority (because it's never happened to me) but I feel like laser pointing an airliner should be a misdemeanor. I say the same for people who come on the ATC frequencies with a home radio and clutter the line with profanity.

It's childish but I can't see it causing me to crash my airplane. Again, I'm deeply in the minority with that opinion and I suspect I might change my mind after I fail a medical exam due to eye damage.

[Higgs]

My opinion is in the minority (because it's never happened to me) but I feel like laser pointing an airliner should be a misdemeanor. I say the same for people who come on the ATC frequencies with a home radio and clutter the line with profanity.

It's childish but I can't see it causing me to crash my airplane. Again, I'm deeply in the minority with that opinion and I suspect I might change my mind after I fail a medical exam due to eye damage.

It should be a felony at least. It could also be considered a terroristic act as it COULD EASILY cause a crash

[Camacha]

When my buddy got hit he was in his own plane. After his vision recovered (I forgot how long it took to come back to 100%) he was low enough he got on the phone with the police while in the air, and was able to determine what house the guy was at. Because the idiot was dumb enough to keep shining at a circling plane. Cops busted him on the spot. My fried was able to see the beam before it shone directly in his eyes, and could avert his vision.

So you're telling us it is so incredibly dangerous that a pilot intentionally and willingly circled above the very spot from which he knew someone was shooting laserbeams at him? That probably tells us enough about the real danger of it - no one in his right mind would respond that way if it really were truly hazardous. If it would have been gunfire or another real threat he would have gotten away as quickly as possible.

It could also be considered a terroristic act as it COULD EASILY cause a crash

Everything is considered an act of terror nowadays because it could be used for real harm in some contrived fashion. The term has become so eroded it has almost lost all meaning.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Camacha

[Higgs]

Camacha lasers are as real a threat as gunfire or a missile. Do yourself a favor, please learn about how dangerous lasers are to the sensitive retina really are. If you strike a pilot in the eyes during take off or final approach you are risking the lives of the flight crew, flight attendants, passengers and people on the ground that could be struck by what is now a very large unguided missile. That alone can make it a TERRORIST attack because it has the potential to disrupt air travel and sew terror as no one knows what the ultimate goal is.

[Camacha]

Camacha lasers are as real a threat as gunfire or a missile.

I could tell from how your friend was circling above the situation, rather than getting the **** away. That is indeed the proper response to a veritable threat!

That alone can make it a TERRORIST attack because it has the potential to disrupt air travel and sew terror as no one knows what the ultimate goal is.

Sure, just as ripping a massive fart during take-off or landing is a terrorist threat. It distracts and disrupts crew and therefore proper aircraft operation, bringing danger to passengers, crew and people on the ground. It should at least be a felony!

Your comment only confirms what I said before: the term terrorism and terrorist act has eroded and become jaded. You really need a certain intent and ideology to qualify any act as terrorism, no matter what gets labeled as terrorism or counter-terrorism nowadays. If anything this practice makes the world more dangerous, because all kinds of shenanigans get pooled with terrorism, muddying the waters and spreading the resources and attention of the relevant agencies ever thinner. Don't get me wrong, the practice of laser lighting aircraft should be discouraged, as should any other interferece with aircraft operation, but it is far from inherent terrorism. Wikipedia still seems to get things right:

Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts that are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., neutral military personnel or civilians).

Edited October 20, 2014 by Camacha