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2nd KRF Formula K Championship

NQMT

By NQMT
in KSP1 Challenges & Mission ideas

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randomness5555

randomness5555

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Hey Kyrian-having a few problems here. I've tried to set a good time in the bug, but persistant trails seems to not be working right. I hit start recording and it creates a new track-fine-but once I finish the race and hit stop recording, it just deletes it. ??!?!? Any advice would be great.

(Also, as it turns out, the bug IS pretty stable...until you push it past 22m/s. Then things become fun :D )

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NQMT

NQMT

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No need to save your track file, or the original one. Just post a screenshot of your route.

randomness5555: don't stop the recording, just take your start screenie, do the lap, take the end screenie, then drive around the flagpole or something to take a good shot of the route.

Starwhip: try more front aero, and maybe try removing the wings on the side. They don't seem to be doing much good.

Edited by Kyrian
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Starwhip

Starwhip

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No need to save your track file, or the original one. Just post a screenshot of your route.

randomness5555: don't stop the recording, just take your start screenie, do the lap, take the end screenie, then drive around the flagpole or something to take a good shot of the route.

Starwhip: try more front aero, and maybe try removing the wings on the side. They don't seem to be doing much good.

I might as well do a complete redesign. .-.

It needs a wider turning circle, and better acceleration. Do you think it's a good idea to strip the RCS tank? It weighs 0.96 tons without it, so it's still legal, and it accelerates nicely.

(Also, the side wings literally do nothing, no lift, no (wait, mass and drag, DERP!)

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The_Rocketeer

The_Rocketeer

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I might as well do a complete redesign. .-.

I don't think you're doing so bad, car looks pretty good on paper.

I agree, though, would definitely ditch those body wings.

The RCS is very advantageous to overcome drag - the G1's top speed increases by nearly 15m/s using RCS boost. So I definitely wouldn't ditch the tank.

From observation, most of your downforce is over the back wheels (RCS tank and steep-angled spoiler). I'd try moving the RCS forward a little, reducing the pitch of the spoiler surfaces, and adding a bit of front wing. More downforce near the front will improve your steering stability.

You can get a bit more turning stability if you widen the wheelbase and lower the body with a bit of fiddling using octagonal struts. Also, try to avoid excessive wheel camber - I've settled on no camber at all for the G1.

You always need to tweak and optimise - redesigning could just replace one can of worms with another.

Edited by The_Rocketeer
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Starwhip

Starwhip

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Eh, good enough, I'll stick with this one:

1:42 (Started 2:00, ended 3:42)

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16hq494.png

Put two extra Cubic Octagonal Struts on the front wheels, to extend their base, removed the body wings, and adjusted the rear spoiler to give it more front downforce.

Also, reduced the camber on the wheels.

Edited by Starwhip
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BagelRabbit

BagelRabbit

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May I still participate?

If yes, heres my car, the Kercedes KRC-1:

http://imgur.com/a/WtFhD

Entry soon.

I sense that someone has borrowed some design elements from me! Very well, your car looks quite nice, and I'm looking forwards to seeing it race. Just a couple of pointers:

1) Downforce really, really, really helps. Pure, sweet downforce. I increased the control surfaces' pitch to 30 degrees and got an incredible grip on the ground. I can now safely turn at 30 m/s plus. It's really excellent.

2) Why so much SAS torque? This thing will turn on a dime, but it will tip much more easily than it otherwise could.

3) An orthogonal view is not a top view... it's actually a bit closer to the view labeled 'Back View' here. It's supposed to be a 45-degree view, that is used to show all sides of the craft possible.

A couple of questions for y'all:

How far can you get off the main trail and still have the run be 'legal'? I'm assuming that staying on the gray concrete or the white brick is all right. My self-imposed rules are to try to have the car's center of mass to always be over the gray concrete. If I have a wheel or two on the green or on the white brick, that's all right, as long as the center of mass remains on the path. This may be a lenient way of looking at it, but by squinting, I can see that the current winner's car had its center over the white brick, at a minimum of three points over the course of the run. I assume that what I'm doing is okay.

Will a YouTube video and a carefully hand-drawn trail suffice, instead of using PersistentTrails? My computer is really slow, even without mods, and the last time I tried installing a single mod (the soccer balls for the World Cup competition) the game regularly crashed and became frustrating to play. I don't want to have this competition detract from my KSP experience... it's supposed to be fun!

My lap time, after a couple of (almost overly cautious) attempts is about 1:49, though I hope to improve this enough to beat the current higs score, wish me luck!

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The_Rocketeer

The_Rocketeer

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Put two extra Cubic Octagonal Struts on the front wheels, to extend their base, removed the body wings, and adjusted the rear spoiler to give it more front downforce.

Also, reduced the camber on the wheels.

Excellent run! It too me several attempts to squeeze out that last second. Your final screenshot shows you about a length past your starting point, so you must've been very close.

Glad my pointers helped :-)

1) Downforce really, really, really helps. Pure, sweet downforce. I increased the control surfaces' pitch to 30 degrees and got an incredible grip on the ground. I can now safely turn at 30 m/s plus. It's really excellent.

Yes, but... that pitch angle will be increasing the overall drag of the car proportionately, hurting overall top speed and acceleration. Also, at 30m/s you'll not manage a very tight turn, so inevitably you need to slow down for the corners, where the effect of (and demands for) aerodynamic downforce is somewhat diminished.

It's a balancing game, but it also depends on how you like to drive. My car does get a bit of body-roll through the tighter turns, but only if I haven't braked adequately. I've also found that accelerating through the turns yields a higher speed down the following straight, AND increases cornering stability.

Not saying you're not giving good advice, but I wouldn't want others to take your comments as gospel and go crazy on aero-downforce.

Edited by The_Rocketeer
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Guest

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I sense that someone has borrowed some design elements from me! Very well, your car looks quite nice, and I'm looking forwards to seeing it race. Just a couple of pointers:

1) Downforce really, really, really helps. Pure, sweet downforce. I increased the control surfaces' pitch to 30 degrees and got an incredible grip on the ground. I can now safely turn at 30 m/s plus. It's really excellent.

2) Why so much SAS torque? This thing will turn on a dime, but it will tip much more easily than it otherwise could.

3) An orthogonal view is not a top view... it's actually a bit closer to the view labeled 'Back View' here. It's supposed to be a 45-degree view, that is used to show all sides of the craft possible.

Thanks, Upsilon. I´ll try to improve my car with these tips.

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BagelRabbit

BagelRabbit

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Before I get any further, I would like to say that I only have three control surfaces at a high angle, and that if I had more, it might adversely affect the car's performance.

That being said:

Yes, but... that pitch angle will be increasing the overall drag of the car proportionately, hurting overall top speed and acceleration.

Not entirely true. The drag is higher than it otherwise would be, but this is more than offset by the fact that the wheels are gripping the ground better. Acceleration is significantly higher than before, and top speed is roughly unchanged.

Also, at 30m/s you'll not manage a very tight turn, so inevitably you need to slow down for the corners, where the effect of (and demands for) aerodynamic downforce is somewhat diminished.

This is correct, but I can now drive at over 30 m/s through the straightaways and broad turns on the second half of the course, which is by far and away the best place to save time. Given, I can only manage hairpin turns at 10 m/s or less, but it's now far easier to accelerate to peak speed immediately after the turn.

It's a balancing game, but it also depends on how you like to drive. My car does get a bit of body-roll through the tighter turns, but only if I haven't braked adequately. I've also found that accelerating through the turns yields a higher speed down the following straight, AND increases cornering stability.

I've gotten to the point where the moment I know that I'm going to make the turn safely, I accelerate as much as possible. This means that I enter hairpin turns at about 8 m/s and leave them at 13-15 m/s. I can confirm that it helps.

Not saying you're not giving good advice, but I wouldn't want others to take your comments as gospel and go crazy on aero-downforce.

Don't take anything I say too seriously. For that matter, don't take anything that anyone says too seriously. Test things out yourself, and see whether they work. You'll become a better driver, and you'll figure out what makes your car work best. Every car is different, and so things that work well on my vehicle may not work well on yours.

Again, best of luck to all participants. I'll probably post an attempt later today... that is, if I can do this without PersistentTrails.

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The_Rocketeer

The_Rocketeer

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It's underway. Kyrian released the track a few days ago.

Upsilon, I'll be very interested to see your laptime. I'd assumed that a min-drag approach was the way to go (based on ion-glider experience), but if cranking the wing up really gives as much benefit as you're suggesting, I'll eat my words and follow suit.

I honestly haven't memorised my corner approach speeds, though my feeling is they're in the same ballpark as the ones you've suggested. I'm also using a 3-surface arrangement, but I've limited my AoA to just 5 or 10 degrees.

Edited by The_Rocketeer
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Starwhip

Starwhip

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Very nice. I don't know if Kyrian accepts resubmissions? If so I might have to head back out onto the track...!

So may I.

How are you taking the turns? Here's an example of mine.

tGGc8pY.png

The blue areas are the places where I actually slow down a bit, and the white I just ease off the gas for a moment before punching it again. Everywhere else is full-on RCS aided boost.

(The second sharp turn (upper right) is the only place that my car has had any difficulty. I went up on two wheels on my 1:40 lap. It can take turns at maximum speed, around 30 m/s, for about 3-5 seconds before it begins to roll, by which time I've generally taken the whole turn.)

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BagelRabbit

BagelRabbit

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My initial "meh" run is at 1:40, but it doesn't really count. (See below.)

Here's the run, via the Eternal Video Provider, YouTube:

Here's what I did wrong, with glorious multicolored bullet points.

> Overestimated the time that it would take to stop for literally every hairpin turn on the course. The Grasshopper stops on a dime.

> Got my back wheel a little grassy coming out of the Admin Building complex.

> Most importantly: Accidentally took the wrong path near the end, gained maybe four or five seconds from that.

(I realized this after the video had begun to upload, so sorry for the misinformation.)

Current Unofficial Best Time: 1:45 (adjusted for the little mistake near the end).

Estimated 'Perfect Run' Time: 1:37-ish

Top speed during the run was over 35 m/s. Acceleration was glorious, deceleration was even better. I just need to go at this track some more and take the turns well.

I really hope that multiple submissions are allowed. In fact, depending on how strict Kyrian is, I may have just disqualified myself.

How are you taking the turns? Here's an example of mine.

http://i.imgur.com/tGGc8pY.png

The blue areas are the places where I actually slow down a bit, and the white I just ease off the gas for a moment before punching it again. Everywhere else is full-on RCS aided boost.

(The second sharp turn (upper right) is the only place that my car has had any difficulty. I went up on two wheels on my 1:40 lap. It can take turns at maximum speed, around 30 m/s, for about 3-5 seconds before it begins to roll, by which time I've generally taken the whole turn.)

I slowed down immensely for all of the turns I made. You can see in the video that I got down to about 10 m/s for both of the hairpin turns that I made, and below 15 m/s making the sharp-ish turn by the SPH. The fastest turn that I made was the one onto the SPH trackway, at about 36 m/s. hope this helps...

Trying the run correctly, tomorrow. Wish me luck! :)

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The_Rocketeer

The_Rocketeer

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haha cool :-D

My initial "meh" run is at 1:40, but it doesn't really count.

I'm afraid u made another wrong turn just before the SPH, you're supposed to take the last right turn, not the 2nd last.

Your car looks amazingly fast, I'm struggling to comprehend how I can set a comparable time in mine. Maybe it's just watching a vid vs actually driving...

Wish I had stronger youtube-fu so I could upload a vid.

Edited by The_Rocketeer
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