Multiverse theory

[Starwhip]

This argument is the kind of thing in "Real Life" that would be great to watch: I'd envision it as two middle-aged guys with white labcoats writing all over chalkboards with physics and screaming theories at each other.

But trying to desperately save this thread:

"Chariots Chariots. According to Greg, theoretically, there's an Earth out there made entirely of money. Plus, since there's a infinite number of Earths, that means there's an infinite number of money planets. So I've done the math, and I figure the odds of finding this thing are one hundred percent. [off mic] Not now Greg! [on mic] That doesn't mean I want you to stop testing, but do keep an eye out for the money-verse. And let me be clear, I'm talking about U.S. currency. You find a peso-verse, you just keep walking."

I think it's plausible, anyway, but we haven't gotten any significant evidence yet of the Multiverse actually existing, besides mathematical "proof".

[frankm134]

[GregA]

http://phys.org/news/2014-11-wasnt-higgs-particle.html#nRlv

I don't know how to feel about this. They want to ditch LHC and build an even larger device, in an attempt to find even heavier particles, even though the LHC has found butkus in those domains. Notice how they are all diplomatic about it though? Carefully pointing that Higgs is the wrong weight, and the failure to find more particles...

It matters because, the Standard Model predicts a whole bunch of heavier particles. With the discovery that there are no heavier particles, all the theories about what Dark Matter, and Dark energy go out the window, because in all likely hood they reside in different universes. Without dark matter and dark energy, all of modern cosmology pretty much falls apart. (It all fell apart back in the 90's with the discovery of tired light aka accelerating expansion but I digress) But more to the point, about 60 years has now been spent on a dead end area of research, with little to show for it. Well except for the spin off technologies, but I think we could have developed wifi for a lot less than 200 billion dollars if we really tried...

Oh and if anyone is interested, a statistical noise filter is used to make GPS really accurate. Your little GPS receivers don't have the capability to run all the tensor calculus needed to guesstimate your location while taking longitude and altitude into account. A number of papers find the effects of Relativity in the statistical table that is used, but it is really small.

Apparently there have been a whole host of experiments to find small scale frame dragging as well, but they have all ended with negative results.

About the only verified by relativity science I can find is the Procession of Mercury, but even that is questionable. Lots of incongruous results were thrown out just like WMAP.

Science as it turns out is an imperfect science...

[GregA]

I think it's plausible, anyway, but we haven't gotten any significant evidence yet of the Multiverse actually existing, besides mathematical "proof".

If I use status quo science it is provable.

You get there by deduction. All possible quantum effects have been ruled out. The standard model is complete. There are no more as yet unseen particles that can account for the motions of galaxies. There is no longer any hope for WIMPS, MACHOS, or MOND. All those areas of research are now closed off.

Therefore, Dark Matter comes from somewhere, or Scientists misunderstand the universe in fundamental ways.

Im not even going to touch Dark Energy... But it has similar implications.

It is not a question of if they exist. It is a question of how many, and what kind. What is the nature of the Bulk, can we probe it from inside this universe, is that even possible? Clearly gravity can travel across the universal barrier, can anything else?

This is the same technique that physicists used to determine that Inflation had to be true btw...

[K^2]

and also since string theory supports (which string theory is stupid) makes me disagree with it more.

String theory suggests a multi-brane, which is close enough, I guess. And yes, predictions of string theory are almost safe to ignore at this point. Though, it remains a useful tool in understanding some QFT phenomena.

That still doesn't mean that there isn't a multiverse. Just that there is nothing to support a notion that there is.

http://phys.org/news/2014-11-wasnt-higgs-particle.html#nRlv

The guy's a technicolor theorist. His paper basically states that the particle might be TC-Higgs, and not an SM-Higgs.

Again, the resonance CERN found matches branching fractions predicted by Higgs mechanism. Yes, we would all like to have more data to have better confidence of spin-0 and some other features, but at this point, we are talking about one in many thousands odds that it is something different than what we expect it to be.

And again, your claim doesn't rest on a possibility that it might be something else. You outright say that it cannot be Higgs. And on that, you are full of sh*t.

It matters because, the Standard Model predicts a whole bunch of heavier particles.

It does not. You are confusing Standard Model with Super Symmetry for the second time in this thread. Standard model works with particles we have discovered so far. That's why it is the Standard Model. It consists of the six quark fields, six lepton fields, symmetries, and corresponding gauge fields - one per generator of the group. Which accounts for every single particle we know of and predicts no new particles.

With the discovery that there are no heavier particles, all the theories about what Dark Matter, and Dark energy go out the window, because in all likely hood they reside in different universes.

No, it's because of God. The fact that we haven't found heavier particles is because God.

That's basically the quality of your argument. Not to mention that Dark Energy / Dark Matter have nothing to do with existence of heavier particle. Yeah, some people have suggested that heavy particles predicted by SS contribute to dark matter, but that's merely wishful thinking from some people. It is neither a prediction nor a requirement of Standard Model or Standard Cosmology.

You seriously shouldn't be arguing about these things when your extent of knowledge is things you've picked up from Discovery Channel.

Oh and if anyone is interested, a statistical noise filter is used to make GPS really accurate.

Do you understand, at least, the difference between systematic errors and random errors? Noise filters help reduce statistical errors. Something like Kalman filter can be used, for example, to give you a very precise and consistent speed reading on your GPS despite significant fluctuations in position estimates.

Dilation errors are systematic. They cannot be fixed by filtering. They have to be fixed by corrections in the model.

Your little GPS receivers don't have the capability to run all the tensor calculus needed to guesstimate your location while taking longitude and altitude into account.

I don't know if this works to impress children, but using words like "Tensor Calculus" when you don't know what it's used for in GR doesn't help you make a stronger case.

And yeah, GPS doesn't need to be aware of GR. It needs to be as simple and cheap as possible. It is the circuit that converts signals from Cesium clock on the GPS satellite that already bakes in corrections for gravitational and relative velocity time dilations. And that doesn't do any tensor calculus either. It's a fixed offset pre-computed for the particular orbit.

Apparently there have been a whole host of experiments to find small scale frame dragging as well, but they have all ended with negative results.

Even that is incorrect. Experiments on frame dragging conducted in Earth's orbit have found the effect. However, they failed to distinguish between linear effects predicted by gravitomagnetic effect, which is basically the Special Relativity version of frame dragging, and the non-linear effect due to General Relativity. They have, however, confirmed precession due to non-Newtonian interaction.

About the only verified by relativity science I can find is the Procession of Mercury

That's because you've never studied GR, so you don't know where to look. Here. I don't expect you to grasp the details, but the measurements from this object confirm GR to 12 orders of magnitude. Which makes it, along with Quantum Electrodynamics (search for anomalous magnetic moment), the most precisely tested theories we have. Which, with both of them being Gauge Theories, is really not surprising.

[vger]

Going to take a moment to say that K^2 has afforded a lot more citations for his claims than the opposition. From a neutral perspective, I'm not sure why he's even bothering to continue arguing with someone who is obviously incorrect.

Pride?

The random hogwash about burger-flipping and operating cash registers unfortunately shows that someone who knows a LOT about how the universe works, has absolutely no idea how civilization works.

Edited November 9, 2014 by vger

[NFUN]

Pride?

The random hogwash about burger-flipping and operating cash registers unfortunately shows that someone who knows a LOT about how the universe works, has absolutely no idea how civilization works.

That was just K^2 getting upset at the abrasive attitude of GregA. I'm both surprised that this thread hasn't been locked yet and that it has been this civil. In any case, this debate hasn't discouraged my ambition in becoming a particle physicist. K^2, if you wouldn't mind, could you give me a little advice on colleges with good physics programs or just random miscellaneous tips?

[Rakaydos]

I remember reading about a variation of the Many Worlds theory, that claims that there are a large but finite number of alternate universes, and if one universe is too similar to another, they repel one another, replicating the observations of quantum mechanics.

Having lost the link, does this theory sound familiar to anyone, and what is it's "crackpot-value?"