[1.12.x] Alcubierre Warp Drive (Stand-alone)

[Donziboy2]

Does anyone else think the 0.625 drive should not have the same thrust as the 2.5m version?

100kN of thrust on a small probe is crazy.

[helaeon]

It's not really 100kN of thrust. That's only used for the purposes of making the throttle work so all the drives have that same thrust.

Also, it's a warp drive everything about it is crazy

[Donziboy2]

It's not really 100kN of thrust. That's only used for the purposes of making the throttle work so all the drives have that same thrust.

Also, it's a warp drive everything about it is crazy

I understand, the problem is is that 100kN of thrust on say a 4 ton probe ends up moving your velocity alot whenever you warp.

[RoverDude]

Easy enough to lower that then. Log a github issue please

[Donziboy2]

Easy enough to lower that then. Log a github issue please

Done, not sure what it should be........

[Yokito Zumi]

Is there any further development planned for the mod? or is it just a matter of updating it when an update rolls in?

(Sorry if im being super ignorant)

[RoverDude]

Updating as updates occur - the mod works in it's current form so it requires relatively little maintenance, and I have about a dozen other mods to maintain

[Yokito Zumi]

Updating as updates occur - the mod works in it's current form so it requires relatively little maintenance, and I have about a dozen other mods to maintain

Yeah, considering USI is comprised of so many Huge mods, i would really just leave it here.

[chlue]

Hello not sure if this a bug or a feature.

Basically I put a ship into a polar duna orbit by jumping into the SOI and doing a number of careful aerobrakes and realignment jumps. Turns out that an awful (real)time inefficient way to go there, but ok thats the price to avoid waiting for an ingame launch windows. After scanning for ore I tried to change my orbit into an equatorial orbit by some other jumps, but the ship behaved really erratic. Basically at low warp speeds if flow backward or in completely wrong directions and only by going faster stuff began to make sense.

I thought there was some internal screwup in the algorithm, but now I realize that the warp drive seem to move the ship (or the rest of the universe) relative to the sun and not relative to the object within the SOI I currently are. This does not really matter if the vessel speed is way faster than the planet orbital speed, but makes navigation almost impossible if the speed is matched, because the navball is basically fully useless then. Is this behavior really desired or some kind of bug?

Note: I have only used the speed conservation method so far and have version WarpDrive_0.2.1 installed.

[RoverDude]

Should really use subluminal engines for that - the mod is optimized for lightspeed travel. Other uses void the warranty

[goldenpsp]

Hello not sure if this a bug or a feature.

Basically I put a ship into a polar duna orbit by jumping into the SOI and doing a number of careful aerobrakes and realignment jumps. Turns out that an awful (real)time inefficient way to go there, but ok thats the price to avoid waiting for an ingame launch windows. After scanning for ore I tried to change my orbit into an equatorial orbit by some other jumps, but the ship behaved really erratic. Basically at low warp speeds if flow backward or in completely wrong directions and only by going faster stuff began to make sense.

I thought there was some internal screwup in the algorithm, but now I realize that the warp drive seem to move the ship (or the rest of the universe) relative to the sun and not relative to the object within the SOI I currently are. This does not really matter if the vessel speed is way faster than the planet orbital speed, but makes navigation almost impossible if the speed is matched, because the navball is basically fully useless then. Is this behavior really desired or some kind of bug?

Note: I have only used the speed conservation method so far and have version WarpDrive_0.2.1 installed.

Pretty much intended. It would be best to probably skim this thread, especially finding posts that explain the workings and tips on its usage. I totally suck at it so I can't be of much use.

[Yokito Zumi]

Should really use subluminal engines for that - the mod is optimized for lightspeed travel. Other uses void the warranty

Il have you know warp bubbles make great forcefields..... until your fingers slip and you press ZGoodbye Kerbol.....

[RoverDude]

Awesome I figure folks would make use of that separate model

[Yokito Zumi]

Awesome I figure folks would make use of that separate model

Haha, i love the seperate model, mostly due to how Modern-Sci It looks, compared to the Retro-Sci Original model. and it fits with my orbital frames perfectly!

[goldenpsp]

I made this awhile ago for KSPI for people to get an idea of how to use warp without using tons of fuel to to match velocities.

Basic steps are match velocity direction, then magnitude and then jump to target.

1) Warp close to Kerbol and wait for craft velocity to be parallel to your target.

2) Warp so you are falling directly toward Kerbol. Wait until your V is the same magnitude as target. If you target is an outer planet then reverse the warp point so you are flying directly away from Kerbol.

3) Warp to target body with your V matched in direction and magnitude.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2ahhzma.jpg

So I haven't really used this drive much. I've been playing around with it, and while I found this old post, I cannot figure it out, even though it "looks" simple. Does anyone have any kinda like tutorials/tips on how to effectively use this drive?

[Donziboy2]

Rover do you still have plans to do an FTT sized warp drive?

[RoverDude]

Yep. I have a very long list of stuff to work on

[helaeon]

@goldenpsp- That applies to the velocity version. Remember that your velocity vector and magnitude (speed) remain constant in that version. The biggest hurdle to think about is how to alter the direction of your velocity vector. That's where the drop to the sun jump is nice. You can change your velocity very quickly in a predictable way by falling at the sun, the closer you are the faster it happens. Timing is critical though as you need to have the velocity vector direction and magnitude correct. So Jool is something like 4000 m/s around Kerbol, so you want your orbital velocity about 4000, and you want to be traveling in the same direction Jool is at that place in its orbit.

If using the Angular Momentum version, the simplest way I've found is to warp to your target planet and set your periapsis as low as you can, then keep warping back to that periapsis. If you want to magnify the effect you can flip your engines on too. It's like a repeated gravity assist.

I do still intend on writing a guide up. Now that things are settling with the 1.0 situation it will probably be sooner rather than later.

@chlue - it's a bug with the way we're using Krakensbane to move the ship through space. Well, it's more an unintended side effect as Krakensbane isn't meant to do what we're doing with it, but it's way better than using unity's setposition function (as in our ships no longer explode and rattle apart)... so unexpected side-effect of warp. Also on my list of things to investigate more. It does make some of those sling shot maneuvers around Dres, Mun, and Minmus quite hard. You do get used to it with practice though (need very good throttle control usually). I know a few things that's it's not. It may be necessary to set a minimum warp speed and the drive doesn't engage or use fuel until you've given it enough throttle.

[Donziboy2]

Forgive me Roverdude for I have sinned.......

EL has some dissadvantages.

Cash Drop pod...

Staged ok..

Almost died when it fell over...

"Sound of Cash Register"

Im thinking the cost for the 0.625m Drive is a little high

[chlue]

@chlue - it's a bug with the way we're using Krakensbane to move the ship through space. Well, it's more an unintended side effect as Krakensbane isn't meant to do what we're doing with it, but it's way better than using unity's setposition function (as in our ships no longer explode and rattle apart)... so unexpected side-effect of warp. Also on my list of things to investigate more. It does make some of those sling shot maneuvers around Dres, Mun, and Minmus quite hard. You do get used to it with practice though (need very good throttle control usually). I know a few things that's it's not. It may be necessary to set a minimum warp speed and the drive doesn't engage or use fuel until you've given it enough throttle.

Hm I don't really get what Krakensbane is doing, but I just took a short look at the code at github in USI_ModuleWarpEngine.cs. Apparently to move the ship the current vessel position is taken and then krakensbane is moved to a new position based on old vessel position and and a jump distance based on the warpdrive operation. If this is working in a kerbol relative coordinate system wouldn't it be enough to just add the speed (multiplied by physics step) of the object I currently orbit to the ps vector in line 314? I guess if I am within the SOI of a moon this would actually be needed to be applied recursive to apply the speed of the planet too.

The thing I actually really like about this warp drive is the ability to make small precise course correction and directly see the new orbit (compared to the one from KSPI (last used version: KSPInterstellar-v0.11)), so enforcing a minimal throttle setting really does not sound appealing for me. Unfortunate without further guidance hints its very hard once the relative speed is low and the dirty old tricks like gravity adjusting extremely close to the sun and via extreme but precise (mechjeb landing guidline information) aerobrake maneuvers do no longer work because in both cases the ship is converted into a fiery ball of molten plasma :-), so precise control is more important than ever.

[RoverDude]

Forgive me Roverdude for I have sinned.......

EL has some dissadvantages.

Cash Drop pod...

http://i.imgur.com/1Eo3Zbg.png

Staged ok..

http://i.imgur.com/lOW4GPi.png

Almost died when it fell over...

http://i.imgur.com/7wZxg4L.png

"Sound of Cash Register"

http://i.imgur.com/Hz81pZP.png

Im thinking the cost for the 0.625m Drive is a little high

Unfortunately, that's more of an EL issue as it treats 1 ton of a fuel tank the same as 1 ton of highly specialized components.

[Donziboy2]

Unfortunately, that's more of an EL issue as it treats 1 ton of a fuel tank the same as 1 ton of highly specialized components.

Would it be possible to add the cost to Exotic matter and Reduce the cost of the drive itself, allow us to add EM in VAB but have EL treat it like most fuels that cannot be created from nothingness like Exotic Matter is treated ATM.

Or would some of that change need to be on EL's side?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Donziboy2

[goldenpsp]

Would it be possible to add the cost to Exotic matter and Reduce the cost of the drive itself, allow us to add EM in VAB but have EL treat it like most fuels that cannot be created from nothingness like Exotic Matter is treated ATM.

Or would some of that change need to be on EL's side?

Side issue then is just launch empty and turn on exotic matter generation in space. Or build empty via EL and then generate exotic matter. That could be abused without even needing EPL.

[undercoveryankee]

Unfortunately, that's more of an EL issue as it treats 1 ton of a fuel tank the same as 1 ton of highly specialized components.

If you wanted to EPL-proof a particularly expensive part, you could add a "required resource" mechanic a la MKS/OKS Machinery, and have most of its cost be in the form of the machinery resource. Perhaps off-world production of the "ExoticMachinery" resource could use MKS RareMetals and ExoticMinerals. And if the drive slowly turned its ExoticMachinery into Recyclables, that would be another knob to constrain the range.

The down side, of course, would be that ExoticMachinery would be yet another line in people's overcrowded right-click menus and resource panels.

- - - Updated - - -

Or would some of that change need to be on EL's side?

I can picture how EPL could be extended to allow parts to have a custom resource cost that EPL would consume instead of that many tons of RocketParts, but I don't know what that would do to the EPL experience for people who weren't concerned about the cost of warp drives.

[Donziboy2]

Side issue then is just launch empty and turn on exotic matter generation in space. Or build empty via EL and then generate exotic matter. That could be abused without even needing EPL.

Ay, yes thats true... Hmmm, maybe add another resource like the byproduct metals from the refinery I believe (exotic and raremetals?) maybe require an amount of one of those 2 byproducts to run the drive. Similar to what undercoveryankee is saying except use an existing resource instead of adding more.