Angle-to-Horizon control for new Pilot SAS skills

[Northstar1989]

This suggestion is fairly simple. There needs to be a setting to allow our vessels to set and hold a specific Angle-to-Horizon through the new Pilot skills that Squad is introducing. So far, from what they've shown us, there's no indication this will be a part of 0.90

Otherwise, a polar-expedition mission like THIS becomes long, slow, and incredibly boring (have you TRIED manually controlling Angle-of-Attack of a plane in KSP for multiple real-life hours?)

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It took an hour just to cross a stretch on ocean on the way back to the KSC. Admittedly this was a propeller-plane (though one with high TWR), so it was comparatively slow-moving in relation to a jet, but a plane-based polar expedition still often takes HOURS of real-life time even with jets...

If they add biomes to Duna, Eve, or Laythe and I decide to fly around there exploring, the same thing basically applies with the long periods of time it would take, say, to fly a plane from the equator to the poles over a long stretch of biomes I've already visited... (ESPECIALLY over long stretches of open ocean on Laythe)

Regards,

Northstar

[CaLVin-K]

I agree, although I cannot think of a simple way that this could be implemented ATM.

[Dodgey]

I agree, although I cannot think of a simple way that this could be implemented ATM.

The only difference between this and the auto pilot option of facing at the radial is the angle which it is set at, there is nothing complicated about it all it needs is a manual input.

[CaLVin-K]

The only difference between this and the auto pilot option of facing at the radial is the angle which it is set at, there is nothing complicated about it all it needs is a manual input.

I was more referring to how the player would input their desired angle into the game. Say I want my airplane to have a constant +5deg attitude, how would I input this into the game?

[Bill Phil]

Maybe have increments of 10 degrees, and every time you click the button or hit the button or whatever it increases the angle.

[Dodgey]

I was more referring to how the player would input their desired angle into the game. Say I want my airplane to have a constant +5deg attitude, how would I input this into the game?

A text box. Add more text boxes as needed for the different axis. Or just two buttons, one to increase and one to decrease the angle.

[Northstar1989]

A text box. Add more text boxes as needed for the different axis. Or just two buttons, one to increase and one to decrease the angle.

Exactly my thoughts. Have you ever seen the MechJeb2 ASAS? They already have text boxes for "Surface" mode where you can set orientation in each of the 3 axes- although a +/- button may also work as a less precise method. (I prefer precision- after all real space missions are INCREDIBLY precise)

Regards,

Northstar

[MKI]

I could of swore the devs were talking about having the pilot learn a skill that basically works as the OLD SAS, or being able to hold the current heading regardless. But I may have misheard.

Otherwise I'm on the fence for this idea.

It is simple and could easily be implimented.

But on the other hand your own case is with mods. I personally see very few cases in a stock game where you must manually fly through atmospheres. Jets in KSP are more of a platform to space than a direct transportation. Space Flight comes easy and cheaply, so holding angle in the atmosphere isn't neccessary in almost every case if you change your design.

I've done a couple Polar Missions, whith a whole base setup via Airlines. But mine where full stock and I could easily do a round trip in 20 minutes. At the same rate I could of better engineered most missions to get INTO space via an SSTO and got them over with in half the time. Or I could of bit the bullet and just used some boosters or a cheap expendable launch system to get the base to the poles by sub-orbital rockets in even less time and very little effort.

Adding this would be simple, but the usefulness of it is somewhat lacking. There aren't to many instances where the player is forced to fly manually without time warp inside the atmosphere.

KSP is a space game, playing around in the atmosphere is cool and all, but its more of just a part of the planet as is its inclination or gravity rather than a key element that every pilot needs to know.

[Red Iron Crown]

I think this is a good idea, and could be easily integrated into the game without text boxes or other UI changes. Just have SAS maintain its direction relative to the navball horizon when the speed readout is in surface mode, instead of relative to the absolute frame of reference as it does now (and should continue to do in orbital mode).

There's not currently a lot of reasons to fly around on Kerbin, but I expect the incorporation of FinePrint to change that (some of the contracts in FP are surveys and waypoints on Kerbin IIRC).

[Northstar1989]

I could of swore the devs were talking about having the pilot learn a skill that basically works as the OLD SAS, or being able to hold the current heading regardless. But I may have misheard.

You should read the OP before posting. The devs were quite clear that they *are* adding a feature similar to the Orbital Mode of MechJeb2 ASAS for pilots, in that it will allow pilots to hold Prograde/Retrograde, Normal/Antinormal, Radial/Anti-Radial, and Maneuver Nodes. It wouldn't be that hard for them to add a few more features already in MechJeb2's ASAS like a Surface Mode (where you can set angle relative to the horizon) and a Target Mode (so you can set the pilot to hold the prograde/retrograde vector relative to a target- though this may already be wrapped up in the existing system...)

Otherwise I'm on the fence for this idea.

It is simple and could easily be implimented.

Since it's simple and easily-implemented at this point (but would be a pain to go back and add later), why *shouldn't* the devs add it at this point? It's already a highly-useful feature...

But on the other hand your own case is with mods. I personally see very few cases in a stock game where you must manually fly through atmospheres. Jets in KSP are more of a platform to space than a direct transportation. Space Flight comes easy and cheaply, so holding angle in the atmosphere isn't neccessary in almost every case if you change your design.

It seems you haven't been using jets properly, or don't have very much experience with Spaceplanes.

Any *proper* spaceplane ascent spends a long period of time inside the atmosphere, in relatively level flight (with a low Angle of Attack) building up speed before making the final push for orbit. And jet planes are a MUCH more cost-efficient way to get around Kerbin than rockets (due to the fuel-efficiency of air-breathing engines and the fuel-savings conferred by having winds). Even rocket-planes on Eve/Duna and air-breathing spaceplanes on Laythe are HIGHLY useful. Therefore there are MANY situations where players can potentially benefit from this feature in a 100% stock game (in fact, the ONLY new case that mods enable is the marginal case of being able to build electric propeller planes to fly around on Duna and Eve- but rocket and stock ion planes already work perfectly well for this purpose...)

I've done a couple Polar Missions, whith a whole base setup via Airlines. But mine where full stock and I could easily do a round trip in 20 minutes. At the same rate I could of better engineered most missions to get INTO space via an SSTO and got them over with in half the time. Or I could of bit the bullet and just used some boosters or a cheap expendable launch system to get the base to the poles by sub-orbital rockets in even less time and very little effort.

Using a spaceplane or a rocket would have cost you a lot more money. I don't know if you play Career mode, but I do- and saving money is always *paramount* to my missions...

Adding this would be simple, but the usefulness of it is somewhat lacking. There aren't to many instances where the player is forced to fly manually without time warp inside the atmosphere.

That couldn't be further from the truth. There are MANY circumstances where it's useful to fly for long periods of time inside the atmosphere (and time-warp doesn't alleviate the problem- it actually makes it worse by making planes less stable).

And this features isn't just limited to flying around with planes inside the atmosphere. Being able to set a precise angle-to-horizon is also HIGHLY useful with precision rocket-ascents, which allow you to get the most bang-for-your-buck, and more easily attempt things like Space-X style missions...

Regards,

Northstar

[Northstar1989]

I think this is a good idea, and could be easily integrated into the game without text boxes or other UI changes. Just have SAS maintain its direction relative to the navball horizon when the speed readout is in surface mode, instead of relative to the absolute frame of reference as it does now (and should continue to do in orbital mode).

Text boxes would allow more precision.

There's not currently a lot of reasons to fly around on Kerbin, but I expect the incorporation of FinePrint to change that (some of the contracts in FP are surveys and waypoints on Kerbin IIRC).

There's about as much reason to fly around Kerbin or other planets (don't forget that you can build a rocket or ion-plane to fly around on other planets!) as there is to do *anything* else in KSP. Because it's fun. It makes sense from an economic perspective because jet engines are much more fuel-efficient than rockets, and rocket-planes much more practical that suborbital hops with landers; but the real reason to do it is just because it's awesome.

If it's fun, and it makes economic sense in-game, then it's just as legitimate a strategy as any other. Just because you don't spend a lot of time building planes to fly around other planets/moons (*cough* Laythe *cough*) doesn't mean other players won't.

And if the devs can eventually be convinced to add something a simple as an electric propeller part (I mean c'mon, we can build electric propellers in real life, why not in KSP!), then the economic incentive to FLY around other planets to explore their many new biomes (which will be released in 0.90) will be greater than ever!

Regards,

Northstar

[Red Iron Crown]

Text boxes would allow more precision.

Oh I agree, I like MechJeb's implementation of SmartASS surface mode for this. I was just pointing out that such a function could be incorporated into stock without requiring UI changes (that and the devs seem resistant to punching in numbers for anything).

There's about as much reason to fly around Kerbin or other planets (don't forget that you can build a rocket or ion-plane to fly around on other planets!) as there is to do *anything* else in KSP. Because it's fun. It makes sense from an economic perspective because jet engines are much more fuel-efficient than rockets, and rocket-planes much more practical that suborbital hops with landers; but the real reason to do it is just because it's awesome.

If it's fun, and it makes economic sense in-game, then it's just as legitimate a strategy as any other. Just because you don't spend a lot of time building planes to fly around other planets/moons doesn't mean other players won't.

I'm also in agreement here, lots of players spend a lot of time flying around Kerbin because it's enjoyable in and of itself (I've done a bit of this myself). I was more responding to MKI saying "Adding this would be simple, but the usefulness of it is somewhat lacking. There aren't to many instances where the player is forced to fly manually without time warp inside the atmosphere. " I think the usefulness of this proposed feature is going to increase a good bit in 0.90 assuming the Kerbin exploration contracts make it into stock.

[Northstar1989]

I think the usefulness of this proposed feature is going to increase a good bit in 0.90 assuming the Kerbin exploration contracts make it into stock.

This indeed turned out to be the case. Good foresight.

Regards,

Northstar

[Capt Snuggler]

I would love to have something similar to SmartASS. I'd prefer text boxes my self but can see why some people including the Devs would be against it.

maybe dials could work? a little attitude control console that can be toggled next to the nav ball? you switch the system on mouse over the dials and use the mouse wheel to role them up or down to the desired value indicated on a digital display.

kinda like this.

I know squad are anti "autopilot" and I tend to agree but people flying using manually inputted automated control seems perfectly valid as it would still be the player deciding what action to take. not to mention its FUN watching the craft you carefully designed perform automated maneuvers.

being able to queue up a series of planned heading changes would be spectacular.

[Northstar1989]

This thread needs some love, and some new ideas on implementation...

By the way, did anyone hear any mention of something like this in 1.0? I haven't been following ALL the development-teasers, and I was just wondering if it might have been something I missed... It would make *SENSE*, since SQUAD is already doing a major aerodynamics overhaul (and doing a lot of testing with planes- maybe a staff member realized: "Hey, this whole maintaining Angle of Attack thing is tedious without some sort of flight-assistance, I wonder if I could program an extension to the ASAS to do that for us..."), but then again, who ever accused SQUAD of being logical?

Regards,

Northstar

[sherkaner]

For aircraft, rather than hold an angle to the horizon, I might suggest a simple "hold altitude and heading" pilot option. No numbers to worry about, it's fairly "realistic", and I think it accomplishes the main goal of letting you set-and-forget an aircraft for long missions. This option could automatically be unavailable once outside atmosphere.

I've long hoped (even assumed) this would be added to the game.

[Northstar1989]

For aircraft, rather than hold an angle to the horizon, I might suggest a simple "hold altitude and heading" pilot option. No numbers to worry about, it's fairly "realistic", and I think it accomplishes the main goal of letting you set-and-forget an aircraft for long missions. This option could automatically be unavailable once outside atmosphere.

I've long hoped (even assumed) this would be added to the game.

No, that really doesn't work. The whole point of holding the Angle-to-Horizon is to allow long, slow CLIMBS- like that of a Spaceplane to max cruising altitude with turbojets before switching over to rocket engines...

Regards,

Northstar