0.90 Mun science challenge

[bitslizer]

As I was banging my head trying to make this work, I want to see if I'm just dumb or if this is impossible. I seem to be "just slightly" out of reach as far as D/V budget goes

Challenge

Build a Mun lander/return vehicle capable of returning 3 material lab/goo samples to kerbin (mun hi orbit, mun low orbit, 1 mun landed). Easy you say? the trick is you must do this without upgrading the VAB/SPH in at least moderate difficulty career mode. thus you are limited to a max of 30 parts including battery and solar panels, for a harder challenge you are limited to 18 tons.

You need not return the material labs or goo pod to kerbin, but the science must be collected/rewarded (EVA to collect the data samples is allowed) screenshots of science rewarded

You need not land all 3 mat/goo on the moon, you can leave 2 in orbit.

You can bring the Science Lab if you want for the BIOME hopping challenge.

STOCK parts, STOCK aero only (MechJeb, KER are OK)

Jeb-level

BIOME hopping without launch pad upgrade (30 parts/18 tons)

1) Yemo

Hard-level

BIOME Hopping (i.e. more than 3x Material labs/Goo samples returned, at least 2x landed mat/goo samples)

You are allow to upgrade the launch pad. (30 parts)

Medium-level

Do the challenge without upgrading the launch pad (30 parts/18 tons)

Easy-level

You are allow to upgrade the launch pad. (30 parts)

1) Bitslizer

Edited December 24, 2014 by bitslizer

[bitslizer]

Happy to report that I was able to complete the easy level finally, but it required parts from Heavy Rocketry to get the job done. Mission technically is not completed yet as i have not yet return to Kerbin... but its way past my bed time so I'll have to do the kerbin return tomorrow.... plenty of delta V for the trip so it shouldn't be a problem

-edit I was able to return without a problem

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Edited December 24, 2014 by bitslizer

[Francesco]

Interesting, I think I'll try this later.

I'm thinking of a no-probe return capsule with two goos and material labs sent on a free return trajectory with the rest of the ship, for high and low Mun orbit science.

[Francesco]

Well it seems impossible to stay below 18t with a rocket-only ship.

I got the job done with 35t and 30 parts: 3 material labs, plus one goo and two thermometers crammed in for fun.

No struts, obviously:

Pics: http://francesc0.minus.com/mQipp0V29G7g1

[bitslizer]

How was your dv budget? Could you have replace the 2 control surfaces with 2 more goo pod? What was the control surfaces for anyway? It is good that your attempt did not resort to using heavy rocketry parts

[Francesco]

Maybe, maybe there was room for one more goo, or two, I wasn't particularly efficient with my piloting so there definitely was some fuel margin.

I used elevons in place of landing legs or gear bays to use less parts.

[bitslizer]

I think you could have saved 2 parts if you did not do the free material bay return... 1 less decoupler and don't need a chute, just leave them with the transfer stage and EVA to collect the data? that would give you the necessary part counts to fit in 2 more goo pods?

I'm going to have to give your design a try tonight

edit -

OK, so I see why I did not thought about your design initially when i was stuck. I had unknowingly mentally imposed a restriction on myself where I have a transfer stage to carry the 2 pods, with the lander stage merely doing the mun landing, mun launch and kerbin return. so I had to design something that had enough DV for the kerbin launch, mun transfer, and mun orbital insertion burn. Where your design just need to launch into Kerbin orbit with the lander stage handling everything else from that point on!

Edited December 19, 2014 by bitslizer

[-Ace]

What ya think?

[bitslizer]

What ya think?

Its an interesting take to use jet lifter, but where's the material bay?

[-Ace]

Its an interesting take to use jet lifter, but where's the material bay?

oh i thought it was 3 goo containers "OR" 3 material bay's? you need 3 of each?

[bitslizer]

Yes, 3 of each that's why it's so hard to fit under 30 parts

[bakanando]

By the time this can be feasibly done you already have the money to upgrade both buildings and abuse high tier parts, so I don't see the challenge.

I did try the rocket-only region hopper level with launchpad upgrade, but the rocket is about 100t and by the time it got munar SOI capture trajectory it still had between 3k and 4k of d-v left between two stages.

Then I got bored and reverted the flight. It only had four material labs so it wouldn't qualify either.

[bitslizer]

Francisco's design is proof that at least for the easy level, this can be with near starter tech. I was able to make slight modification to his design and based in the dv budget should be able to yo do the munar round trip.

At the time I posted this challenge I was stuck with many low post grindy contact and low tech, and the mun mission was the only contract with decent pay

[Francesco]

OK, so I see why I did not thought about your design initially when i was stuck. I had unknowingly mentally imposed a restriction on myself where I have a transfer stage to carry the 2 pods, with the lander stage merely doing the mun landing, mun launch and kerbin return. so I had to design something that had enough DV for the kerbin launch, mun transfer, and mun orbital insertion burn. Where your design just need to launch into Kerbin orbit with the lander stage handling everything else from that point on!

Yeah, you only need 2700 m/s or so once you're in Kerbin orbit for the whole trip, which isn't hard to achieve with a light ship powered by a 48-7S, but you also have to factor in carrying the extra weight of science parts.

[sdj64]

Are you allowed to use EVA (requires astronaut complex upgrade)? Also if you can use it, are you allowed to take the science out and then leave the actual science parts behind?

[bitslizer]

Are you allowed to use EVA (requires astronaut complex upgrade)? Also if you can use it, are you allowed to take the science out and then leave the actual science parts behind?

Yes you are allow to eva and leave the science parts behind, just collect samples/data and bring them home

[Yemo]

Finally managed to build a vessel capable of fulfilling the requirements. It was very tough, so the margin for error when piloting is slim.

dV: 5180m/s + Jet boosters for atmosphere

Parts: 30

m: 16.9t

√: ~22,200

3 Science Pods, 3 Goo Canisters

With the Jet Boosters (S4) it reaches 28km in the Kerbin atmosphere @ 500+ m/s. With the right ascent path, the jets are out of fuel just before they suffocate. The Lifter stage (S3) takes it to 80km apoapsis. Then comes the very low TWR main stage (S2). If I had just 2 more parts available, I would have slung Rockomax 48-7S underneath the Science pods, for 0.2 less weight and 90 instead of 50 thrust... The S1 stage is for return only, its fuel tank is not full, because I decided to save weight for the other stages.

The goo canisters have relatively high crash tolerance (12m/s or so), so I use them as landing legs.

@-Ace:

I tried a setup similar to your jet booster setup when designing for the 18t mun return challenge in the general discussion.

I found that even if I put 6 intakes on the base, for the 3 jets, they suffocate around 20km.

I then tried 3 fuselage intakes (the ones without fuel) and 3 of the standard intakes beneath the tricoupler (to keep the part count equal for some more weight). Same result, they suffocated around 20km.

Strangely with my current design, which also has 6 intakes for 3 jets, they may go as high as 30km or so.

Unfortunately my design has 1 additional part.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Yemo

[bitslizer]

That's a very interesting design, do you have additional screenshots/mission report? I can add you to the first post if you have a good report documenting the mission, and I think this would qualify as the Medium level!

[Yemo]

A friend flew the mission, I m not the best pilot and with xmas around, too many interruptions.

The main challenge is, to find an optimal ascent path to waste as little dV as possible in atmo, while accounting for the low TWR of S2 for circularizing the orbit.

Then it is just landing at an elevated/dV efficient point on the mun, the lander is wide enough but relatively top heavy when landing.

Will try the mission probably after boxing week and make some screenshots.

About the difficulty level, I think the 30p/18t is harder than the Biome hopping 30parts (4science/goo, 2 of them landed).

The 18t limit with 1.05t, 6parts science + capsule and parachute is very tough.

I m sure a surplus dV, Biome hopping <30p vessel is possible, if weight is not an issue, by using asparagus 2.5m rocket parts.

Yours and Francescos design sure can fit in an additional science and goo part for 0.35 additional mass, by just replacing the fuel tanks with larger versions.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Yemo

[bitslizer]

I've been mulling about specifying an tech level limit to limit the challenge to low tech parts, specifically to address the issue you brought up, bu then I'll have to resubmit my own entry lol.

[Yemo]

This is my biome hopper with level 5 tech. The 909 can be replaced with one or two 48-7S for more dV or more TWR.

Not sure if the science hopping is possible without asparagus/2.5m parts/jets/lower tech while keeping the 30 part restriction.

It may be interesting to try the other way around, 18t launch pad restriction, but more than 30 parts.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Yemo

[Yemo]

The hardest design project I did in KSP:

My entry for the 0.90 Mun Science Challenge,

Jeb-Level!

dV: 5336m/s + Jet boosters for atmosphere

=> 3100+ m/s @ 80km LKO

Parts: 30

m: 17.9t

√: ~23,400

4 Science Pods, 4 Mystery Goo (2 of each on the lander)

With 3100 m/s dV in LKO, a good pilot can aim for the border between 2 mun biomes and reliably land and then hop to the other one.

If you have a tiny amount of fuel left when landing on Kerbin, you can easily land with the 2 mystery goo and 2 science pods intact.

You can probably get another 30m/s when moving the small fuel tank from S3 to S2, but for me the low TWR on S2 was annoying enough, so I didnt want to make that worse.

Also, optimizing the ascent path goes a long way with those designs, so there is certainly some further potential for dV.

[bitslizer]

Congrat! I've added you to the Jeb level on the first page. FYI, I was able to improve on your design on the lightest mun lander challenge

[Yemo]

Thanks! It was a lot of work, especially testing various jet booster designs with different ascent paths!

I ve seen your post in the probe challenge, but the imgur gallery does not work for me.

Some great improvement suggestions from the text, will take a look at the lander again. Didnt even know that landing gear was so lightweight!

[bitslizer]

Haha, try no weight

The imgur album works fine for me..... Is it just my album or you have problem with imgur in general?