Hard mode is now very hard indeed at the start

[Marclev]

Hmm, need 104,000 funds to upgrade launch pad to support heavier craft.

Need heavier craft to fulfil contracts that get a reasonable amount of funds to upgrade launch pad.

Is there such a thing as "too much grinding"? I've hit 50,000 funds by getting into orbit (just), but now am struggling to get much more as the contracts aren't paying enough compared to the cost of the craft to complete them.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Marclev

[Streetwind]

Hard mode exists to be hard. By its very definition, the majority of players will find it to be too hard for their tastes... if it's properly implemented. If it's not, and everyone loves hard mode, then hard mode needs to be renamed "normal mode" and something even harder created. Up until the point where it is no longer the mode best suited to everyone.

The custom settings is really where it's at, by the way. Perhaps if you like hard mode in general, but money is an issue, you can try just raising the money slider by one or two notches and leaving all other sliders at hard mode defaults?

And finally: KSP just came out of alpha. The game systems are untuned. You can generate infinite science, funds and reputation without ever achieving orbit (and I'm not talking about building planes either), the administrative strategies are either useless or overpowered, the aerodynamic system is a placeholder, upgradable buildings have just been introduced a few days ago in their first iteration, the current stock tech tree is a naive idea that didn't survive the introduction of the other career mode features well at all, there are debug menus full of toggleable cheats all over the place, and so on... yes, of course it's all wrong Fixing this is what beta is for. In the meantime though, there's no reason why the wrong should stop you from having fun. Just tick the custom sliders a bit to find your own way!

[Frank327]

From my experience with moderate you have to really cherry pick the contracts to make good money. Especially the part testing in (sub)orbit and rescuing kerbals make decent amounts of money. Once you've got the launch pad and the recruitment centre upgraded (for eva in space and bigger rockets) it's up to the mun and minmus to make serious cash.

[zekes]

make a reuseable craft - it will save so much money in the long run.

[Rusty6899]

I had started to play custom on 10% funds, but it's far too hard. Some contracts gave single figure rewards. I'm on 40% now and it is difficult. The cash has definitely dried up a bit. I think they have cut the rewards in half. On my 20% funds 0.25 game I think it rewarded around 30k for science data from around the Mun. Now t offers that on 40%.

If you want to play on hard mode, it's going to be a bit of a slog. The best thing to do is to deploy a satellite around Mun, Minmus and Kerbin ASAP and get a steady stream of funds from the contracts that come in.

[Marclev]

I had started to play custom on 10% funds, but it's far too hard. Some contracts gave single figure rewards. I'm on 40% now and it is difficult. The cash has definitely dried up a bit. I think they have cut the rewards in half. On my 20% funds 0.25 game I think it rewarded around 30k for science data from around the Mun. Now t offers that on 40%.

If you want to play on hard mode, it's going to be a bit of a slog. The best thing to do is to deploy a satellite around Mun, Minmus and Kerbin ASAP and get a steady stream of funds from the contracts that come in.

Can't even get to the Mun as the biggest rocket I can build lets me only very barely get into orbit. The problem is as in my OP that you can't upgrade the launch pad without 100,000+ funds (which you need in order to build a decent rocket) and you can't get 100,000+ funds without a lot of grinding on contracts that don't offer a lot of return on investment.

About to give up and play on normal instead, I like a challenge but I fear this is just going to be a boring grind unfortunately the way it is now.

In .25 I found hard mode a good challenge that was more interesting than normal, but could be progressed through at a steady pace if you knew what you were doing (and at around 800 hours invested in the game, I think I do), but in .90 it's just grind city unfortunately. Hopefully they can balance this out for the next update.

*** Mods: I can see why you moved this into "Gameplay questions and tutorials", but it's more of a dev suggestion to have a look at a balance issue specifically around the amount of funds it takes to do the initial launch pad upgrade in hard mode, which you can't actually achieve in a reasonable time frame with the contracts you're able to complete.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Marclev

[Mattasmack]

From my experience with moderate you have to really cherry pick the contracts to make good money. Especially the part testing in (sub)orbit and rescuing kerbals make decent amounts of money. Once you've got the launch pad and the recruitment centre upgraded (for eva in space and bigger rockets) it's up to the mun and minmus to make serious cash.

I second this -- be judicious in the contracts you take. 'Science from space around Kerbin' was a good very early contract for me -- just two small SRBs will take a capsule into space where you can get a crew report, so it's very cheap and low-risk to fly. The parts and mass limits make it hard to do multiple testing contracts at the same time, so I've mostly avoided them. Forget reusability; with the parts available early-on in stock it would be hard to recover very many parts, and at their prices it's not worth worrying about. Make your vessels as simple and small as possible, which will also make them cheap and allow you to do more before upgrading the launchpad or VAB. Use SRBs for your first stage (and second stage when the thrust levels make sense). They'll give you lower part count than a stack of tanks on a liquid-fueled engine and they're cheap.

My first building upgrade was the mission control. There may be better approaches to upgrades, but that worked well for me (so far). With the upgraded mission control I could take on all the early exploration contracts (Mun, Minmus, Ike, and Duna) and get their advances, and since those contracts don't have deadlines I don't have to scramble to fulfill them and can do other contracts while I work up to them. I was able to get a craft to go around Mun before upgrading the launchpad. I just used a 30-part vessel (made in the tier 1 VAB) to land on Minmus and fulfill that exploration contract; with the funds from that I can upgrade the astronaut complex. Now I can EVA and do the rescue contracts, and future missions will start bringing in better science returns (EVA reports).

Edited to add: OP, you mentioned grinding a lot. I haven't had to grind much at all so far. I took a 'science from space around Kerbin' contract maybe thrice; nothing else has repeated yet. Take only the contracts that are worthwhile, and practice making the minimum rocket that will fulfill it.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Mattasmack

[WanderingKid]

Mun shot: 48-7S(preferred) or LV-909(not as good) with smallest tank, pod, and antenna as your Mun stage. Lift with Decoupler, Fuel tanks, LV-T45. Strap a pair of RT-10s onto the side with radial decouplers, adjust thrust to 80% or so. Go up on Rt-10s alone first, after decouple, full burn to orbit. May need Lander Pod to finish circularization. When moon rises and gets a bit over the horizon, aim and burn.

I disagree Hard mode is unbalanced for the Launchpad. There are imbalances, but that particular price point isn't one of them in my opinion.

[Jasonden]

Yah there seems to be something weird. With 10% funds it's already 10x harder to upgrade facilities. But then they've gone and made the upgrades 10x more expensive, too -- this seems like too much of a good thing IMHO. 10% funds on contracts will make it very hard already to upgrade facilities, and therefore you probably don't need the upgrades to be 10x more expensive, too . . .

[Rusty6899]

Can't even get to the Mun as the biggest rocket I can build lets me only very barely get into orbit. The problem is as in my OP that you can't upgrade the launch pad without 100,000+ funds (which you need in order to build a decent rocket) and you can't get 100,000+ funds without a lot of grinding on contracts that don't offer a lot of return on investment.

About to give up and play on normal instead, I like a challenge but I fear this is just going to be a boring grind unfortunately the way it is now.

In .25 I found hard mode a good challenge that was more interesting than normal, but could be progressed through at a steady pace if you knew what you were doing (and at around 800 hours invested in the game, I think I do), but in .90 it's just grind city unfortunately. Hopefully they can balance this out for the next update.

*** Mods: I can see why you moved this into "Gameplay questions and tutorials", but it's more of a dev suggestion to have a look at a balance issue specifically around the amount of funds it takes to do the initial launch pad upgrade in hard mode, which you can't actually achieve in a reasonable time frame with the contracts you're able to complete.

I think what I'll probably do it have a Hard Mode save and a Normal save, and only play hard mode when I'm feeling like a challenge. On hard mode, every mission takes your full attention, and I think that a lot of the time, I'd rather just be able to mess about a bit. The main problem I have had is the tracking station. Funds have been tight, but I have been going for "science data from space around Mun" contracts, that pay out $30k+ (probably 45-50k on hard mode) and I can get there for less than $10k. It's not exactly a windfall, but it is manageable.

The worst thing is not knowing whether you have an encounter with Mun, or your periapsis height, until you are in the SOI. I stranded Jeb already by being flung into horrific orbits by consecutive gravity assists. It took all my fuel to avoid going into interplanetary space, and almost all my EVA fuel to get into LKO (That's right, I finally got $100k together and had to spend it on upgrading the Astronauts complex instead of something more useful, just to save Jeb).

The finances will be fine as soon as I have a probe core, a solar panel and a thermometer, though. It is a bit of a shame that those 3 items are all you even need for infinite funds (unless that loophole has been closed in 0.90).

[SRV Ron]

You will have to be careful in designing efficient rockets limited to the parts numbers, height, and weight restrictions as you build up enough funds to upgrade the launch pad.

[Streetwind]

In my .25 career save, I have a Mun rocket costing just under 80,000 funds. It is capable of launching a manned craft to Mun or Minmus, where this manned craft will land, perform science, take off, land in a different biome, perform science again, take off again, return to Kerbin and land safely. It's compact enough that it doesn't even need any struts, and probably wouldn't blow up the launchpad either... I'm using clamps though, because it is rather top heavy and would balance on a single engine.

And here's the clincher: close to 60% of the cost is science instruments alone. The pure rocket & spacecraft with no instruments - still with all of its dual landing and return capabilities and such - would probably be in the 35k area. I'm guessing, I haven't actually checked. But it carries three DMagic instruments each costing a five digit amount (the magnetometer alone is something like 16k, from memory), and then there's the three stock science sensors and dual goo/materials bay.

So no, you do not need more than 100,000 funds to make a decent Mun rocket It depends massively on your skill at building rockets in an efficient manner out of parts chosen specifically for their good price/performance ratio. Just as an example: solid rocket boosters are extremely cheap and great for launching a craft, but if you have an expensive radial decoupler for every SRB, it's going to eat into your funds. This can be avoided by having your launch stage decoupled inline only, and the SRBs taped directly to the sides. Which of course brings with it challenges in the sense of having to tweak the stage so that it is ready for decoupling when the SRBs burn out, because you don't want to carry the empty husks and so on and so forth...

That's the kind of building that hard mode requires. You can't just reuse your trusty standbys from days of old where funds didn't exist - those might simply not be efficient enough. Build custom for the task at hand, focus ruthlessly on efficiency, and if you can lift something with a spaceplane and don't mind the added tedium, then that's your single best bet at cost efficiency.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Streetwind

[Janos1986]

"Make it reusable" is the key sentence.

At some point I went mental enough to start strapping parachutes, probe cores and landing legs on boosters to land and recover EVERYTHING, SRBs included.

[Frank327]

"Make it reusable" is the key sentence.

At some point I went mental enough to start strapping parachutes, probe cores and landing legs on boosters to land and recover EVERYTHING, SRBs included.

But how do you make a reusable rocket that weighs 18 tonnes and can get into orbit? And how do you make a 30 part moonlander that is completely reusable? Back when weight and parts were unlimited, making everything reusable was viable but I don't know if that's the case anymore.

[Janos1986]

It's just that my train of thought is stil stuck at 0.25 city, with no limitation on VAB and launchpad.

You can still use landing legs and staging without decouplers though, i.e. keeping spent SRBs attached for the whole flight.

The resulting ship will be a little heavy and wide, and maybe careful tweaking of the fuel amounts would be necessary, but still...

I know it's a bit stretched yeah, but I'm trying to find a way to make it work in my brain.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Janos1986

[MKI]

I ain't going to lie. I found the early game fairly challenging, but no wear near impossible with stock launchpad. I upgraded the pad as soon as I had another basic mission ready to gain my a few more insurance funds after its upgrade.

My first day after BETA than ever release was spent playing Career with NO MODS ON MODERATE.

I was able to do this with the stock launchpad:(again on moderate)

1. Get multiple contracts early with a few sub orbital flights.

2. Get a few Orbit around Kerbin contracts done.

3. Did a fly by of the Mun 2 times, close and far for max science without landing.(along with testing of contracts in orbit around kerbin)

4. landing on the Mun with a 1 way probe to finish exploring the Mun contract.

After this mission i had enough to upgrade the pad. The 30 part limit was the most limiting. But if you can manage to get the long 1.5m Fuel tanks, which save you on part count, getting to the moon isn't difficult. Use boosters on almost every flight to save parts and give a cheap Delta-V boost to all flights. Fly for contracts more than science, and use the Funds boosting investment at the cost of your Rep.

If need be its totally possible to go to Minimus with the same set of missions. With 2 Manned Flybys for max science. (1 for close, and 1 for far )

and a 1 Way probe landing to finish the Minimus exploration Contract. The hardest part is lining up your orbits and intercepting Minimus. (Start your burn when minimus appears over the horizon and pray!)

If anything its easy to do any Sub-Orbital Tests, which are VERY easy to do effeciently. Or science around Kerbin missions, which are also easy. At the same time pick good landing spots to do science once you land.

I believe this should be enough to buy the next level launch pad, even on Hard. But this is just an estimation.

I can't vouch for hard difficulty, but its called hard for a reason. Im sure its possible to get through, but a true challenege. Or a massive grind. I always believed hard was the most realistic setting for KSP. It takes a lot of missions to even get to the moon, and any long distance mission is a true endevor.

I give it to squad, making career difficult is a good thing. I personally am enjoying myself playing moderate with limited mods. The lack of manuver nodes makes things very interesting, and the next contracts keeps me active by putting up satillites. Before funds went to more rockets, but now funds can go to more missions or better support. That sort of dynamic is interesting, especially when your strapped for cash haha.

[Kerbart]

From my experience with moderate you have to really cherry pick the contracts to make good money. Especially the part testing in (sub)orbit and rescuing kerbals make decent amounts of money. Once you've got the launch pad and the recruitment centre upgraded (for eva in space and bigger rockets) it's up to the mun and minmus to make serious cash.

THIS. And if you're able to combine three or four contract into one mission, Funds and science flow in with abundance. Of course that's very hard to do, but that's why it's called... hard.

[Janos1986]

Yeah, I thought it was obvious.

The same ship should be able to fulfill at least 3 contract in one flight to be cost-effective.

I began career mode on ALMOST HARD (revert and quicksave are enabled) yesterday evening and in 5 flights I already have upgraded my mission control.

Oh right, first thing I did was maximum commitment on the Cash for Reputation strategy at 25% to boost my earnings a bit.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Janos1986

[Marclev]

Yeah, I thought it was obvious.

The same ship should be able to fulfill at least 3 contract in one flight to be cost-effective.

I began career mode on ALMOST HARD (revert and quicksave are enabled) yesterday evening and in 5 flights I already have upgraded my mission control.

Oh right, first thing I did was maximum commitment on the Cash for Reputation strategy at 25% to boost my earnings a bit.

Some of the people responding to this have clearly not actually tried playing Hard mode in .90 and are just spouting generic wisdom, which for a forum that used to be so high quality is very dissapointing. The fact that at the start you can only actually have 2 contracts at a time without upgrading mission control is something of a give away when people go on about having 3 contracts at the same time.

And as another poster said, you can forget about anything reusable when you have a 18 ton limit and tier 1 + 2 science only because you can't even go EVA off the ground or get surface samples so your science is advancing at a snails pace.

I finally got a "Get science from around Kerbin contract" after cancelling dozens of "visual survey" contracts that gave a peanut return on investment that boosted my funds enough to upgrade the launch pad. Then was lucky enough to get a "Rescue so and so from orbit" mission, which was very challenging indeed *without maneuvre nodes or the ability to target another ship*, but I did it (actually rather cool) and now I think I might be able to cobble together a mun mission but I'm finding myself limited to 30 parts, which is turns out is not a lot at all to put a decent mission together. I might be able to do a fly by of the mun, but fail to see how to put together a lander with that part count.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Marclev

[Frank327]

Then was lucky enough to get a "Rescue so and so from orbit" mission, which was very challenging indeed *without maneuvre nodes or the ability to target another ship*, but I did it (actually rather cool) and now I think I might be able to cobble together a mun mission but I'm finding myself limited to 30 parts, which is turns out is not a lot at all to put a decent mission together. I might be able to do a fly by of the mun, but fail to see how to put together a lander with that part count.

Once you've got the FL-T800 fuel tanks it becomes very doable. The career I'm doing in this beta was the first time those tanks were of vital importance for me. Also, be very careful with adding batteries, science equipment and even the amount of landing legs. Every part counts. If you want I can show the craft that I did it with.

[njd80]

Here's a tip for some extra cash just at the beginning - take the 5000m altitude contract, and carefully make sure you only just make it. I then got another for 11000m, then another for 22000m, then another for 33000m - all paying in the thousands.

Some fuel and thrust modifications on the RT-10 make these possible and bring that little extra cash in at the beginning. Especially helpful on hard mode.

[Marclev]

Little update from me:

Finally managed to get a fly-by to the mun, after which everything has gotten a lot easier. With the cash and science boost that gave me was able to orbit and land on the mun in the next mission (but with not enough fuel left to return) and things are now a lot smoother.

Seems like in the previous version, making it to the mun is a turning point for funds.

[Mattasmack]

Little update from me:

Finally managed to get a fly-by to the mun, after which everything has gotten a lot easier. With the cash and science boost that gave me was able to orbit and land on the mun in the next mission (but with not enough fuel left to return) and things are now a lot smoother.

Seems like in the previous version, making it to the mun is a turning point for funds.

Glad to hear things are picking up! Hope it stays fun!

[Yemo]

I just made a small guide for starting a KSP 0.9 career.

The guide should enable Kerbals to coste efficiently (funds and science) reach orbit (without facility upgrades) and to get some easy Kerbin science to kick off the career (normal/moderate/hard).

[Musuko42]

Why not set science/funds/reputation rewards low, but give yourself extra initial funds, to avoid the grind trap needed to upgrade the launchpad at the start?