Is getting stuff into orbit too "easy"?

[rkman]

If you're finding it easy to launch things to orbit then I would say your payload isn't big enough. Sure, you only NEED a small payload to actually do the tasks. But life is so much more fun when you do things in style.

If people feel the need to roleplay that getting to orbit is harder than it really is, i think that means it is to easy.

The only thing that makes it hard for noobs is that to most people orbital mechanics is not intuitive.

Once one gets the basics of it, just "getting to orbit" is very easy in KSP. Small probecore, small fuel tank, small engine, done.

[Frozen_Heart]

People seem to forget how difficult KSP is to start out with. It took me quite a while to get anything to orbit. Most of my friends can't even do that and refuse to play.

With the current difficulty people can put imaginative payloads into space. KSP is a game not a simulator.

[Camaron]

What do you think? Is getting stuff into orbit to easy?

Maybe. Here's a short thread I made some time ago around some of my key giants.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/78944-Meet-the-2-200-Ton-Titan-Thirteen-Fuel-Lifter

People seem to forget how difficult KSP is to start out with. It took me quite a while to get anything to orbit.

I can agree to that. It didn't take me long to get things into orbit for the first time, but I had a long road figuring out docking. It was scary, I avoided it entirely for months. One day, I decided: I can do this! And I built a thing with docks, and another thing to connect to it. Learned how to rendezvous properly (But not before accidentally deorbiting one), and learned how to dock. I'm glad to say that Im now quite good at docking, suceessfully binding even behemoths like the ones in my thread. Docking was my demon, but I've mastered it for so long now that I can hardly remember the time when I couldn't.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Camaron

[Jouni]

Launching stuff to orbit has become easier in almost every patch since I started playing. If the game used to be balanced for 4500 m/s to orbit in 0.22, it would be 5000-5500 m/s now due to stronger joints and better engines.

[Xavven]

I think it's balanced where it is. I'm usually a glutton for hard difficulty, but at this point the payload is where I derive most of my enjoyment of the mission, not the launch. Back before the SLS parts were put in, you had to resort to building rockets with thrust plates to get big payloads (150t and up) to orbit, and it was just too unrealistic for my taste. I'd much rather strap on a few LFBs on a S3 KS-25x4 Engine Cluster and get on with it.

[RainDreamer]

Well, if we want the "get to orbit" part harder, then we need more things to do while we are not getting to the orbit on the way to get tech that would let us go to orbit. The current surveys missions are nice, but gets repetitive after a while, and we need plane parts earlier. We need things like Roverdude's sounding rockets to do in-atmosphere science and contracts, to build us up to a progression that have getting to orbit about mid-game.

If we make getting to orbit too hard, casual players would get bored. Most of KSP fun is to get to other planets and places. Getting stuck on Kerbin for a long time without anything to do would be really tiresome after a while.

[foamyesque]

Well, if we want the "get to orbit" part harder, then we need more things to do while we are not getting to the orbit on the way to get tech that would let us go to orbit. The current surveys missions are nice, but gets repetitive after a while, and we need plane parts earlier. We need things like Roverdude's sounding rockets to do in-atmosphere science and contracts, to build us up to a progression that have getting to orbit about mid-game.

If we make getting to orbit too hard, casual players would get bored. Most of KSP fun is to get to other planets and places. Getting stuck on Kerbin for a long time without anything to do would be really tiresome after a while.

I think this could be done reasonably well with payload management, contract work, a revamped tech tree, and building tiering. Early on, you have light payloads that can get to orbit but nowhere else-- your Mercury equivalent, say. It should just fit in under the limits of your starting tier buildings. Then you start needing to add mass and parts in the form of power supplies, life support, science gear, flight control bits, and so on, in order to get anywhere else, which will necessarily drive rockets larger. Change the starting kit so that you're not starting with two of the best engines in the game, but keep the goals of early contracts simple; by the time you've got the parts to make those contracts trivial, give the players contracts which will need those better parts.

[xcorps]

The OP is not very well thought out.

First of all, define easy versus hard.

Here are the requirements for orbit:

TWR > 1.1

DeltaV > 4800 (ish, that's the number I use)

Increase delta V requirement to make it harder? Nope, not harder, moar boosters. Decrease thrust on current rockets to make it harder? Nope, not harder. Moar boosters.

Here's a few suggestions that would make it "harder".

Random failures. This is a no go for many reasons. (Although I am a fan of an "at will" theortical implementation, I don't see how this could be achieved in way that would enhance gameplay)

Random Wx events. This is a no go for many reasons.

Make the vehicle more difficult to steer. This is a no go.

Make all the parts heavier. Moar boosters.

So the burden on the OP remains...how are you going to make it harder? Because it isn't easy or hard right now. Getting to orbit has certain requirements. Meet those requirements, keep the fire at the bottom and you make orbit.

[KrazyKrl]

The OP is not very well thought out.

First of all, define easy versus hard.

Here are the requirements for orbit:

TWR > 1.1

DeltaV > 4800 (ish, that's the number I use)

Increase delta V requirement to make it harder? Nope, not harder, moar boosters. Decrease thrust on current rockets to make it harder? Nope, not harder. Moar boosters.

Here's a few suggestions that would make it "harder".

Random failures. This is a no go for many reasons. (Although I am a fan of an "at will" theortical implementation, I don't see how this could be achieved in way that would enhance gameplay)

Random Wx events. This is a no go for many reasons.

Make the vehicle more difficult to steer. This is a no go.

Make all the parts heavier. Moar boosters.

So the burden on the OP remains...how are you going to make it harder? Because it isn't easy or hard right now. Getting to orbit has certain requirements. Meet those requirements, keep the fire at the bottom and you make orbit.

If getting to orbit is easy, you're overbuilding your rockets; and wasting resources doing so. KSP without some sort of stock Kerbal Engineer addon is very hard to build an efficient rocket.

Getting to orbit is always easy, it's getting to orbit without wasting a bunch of resources that is the problem.

Now, if career mode had something like part manufacturing time cooldowns... So just shoving a mainsail and a large orange tank under your Mun lander probe that's only 2t would be a waste of resources.

[xcorps]

If getting to orbit is easy, you're overbuilding your rockets; and wasting resources doing so. KSP without some sort of stock Kerbal Engineer addon is very hard to build an efficient rocket. Getting to orbit is always easy, it's getting to orbit without wasting a bunch of resources that is the problem. Now, if career mode had something like part manufacturing time cooldowns... So just shoving a mainsail and a large orange tank under your Mun lander probe that's only 2t would be a waste of resources.

But KSP is not (and should not be) about resource management. It's about flying rockets. Now I'm not opposed to resource management as part of an infrastructure in career mode, but that should exist to support and enhance the rocket portion of the game, not hinder it.

If you tell me I have to get to a 5t payload to orbit using minimal resources then that's not an orbital challenge, it's a design challenge. Getting to orbit is neither easier nor harder. It still requires the same minimum TWR and deltaV.

[RobertR]

When I first started playing this game getting anything to orbit was very challenging to me because I had no idea what I was doing. Obviously like the rest of you I eventually learned how to do it. And I don't think bigger engines makes it any easier. It just means I can put bigger things in space with less stages.

The real challenge to me now is building efficient rockets to get things to orbit. Sure you can put one of those big ass engines on your rocket and enough fuel to get to eve and back just to send a small lander to the mun, but that's you making it easy not the game. The game can be as hard or easy as you want it to be and that's what makes it fun. Challenge yourself.

[numerobis]

Getting to orbit is not hard, it's just rocket science.

Learning rocket science is the hard part.

[foamyesque]

The OP is not very well thought out.

First of all, define easy versus hard.

Here are the requirements for orbit:

TWR > 1.1

DeltaV > 4800 (ish, that's the number I use)

Increase delta V requirement to make it harder? Nope, not harder, moar boosters. Decrease thrust on current rockets to make it harder? Nope, not harder. Moar boosters.

Here's a few suggestions that would make it "harder".

Random failures. This is a no go for many reasons. (Although I am a fan of an "at will" theortical implementation, I don't see how this could be achieved in way that would enhance gameplay)

Random Wx events. This is a no go for many reasons.

Make the vehicle more difficult to steer. This is a no go.

Make all the parts heavier. Moar boosters.

So the burden on the OP remains...how are you going to make it harder? Because it isn't easy or hard right now. Getting to orbit has certain requirements. Meet those requirements, keep the fire at the bottom and you make orbit.

More boosters is fixable, and is in fact fixed to some degree already, by the addition of part count limits, size restrictions, tonnage restrictions, and funds. Some tweaking of those parameters should suffice until you get to the point where adding and controlling all the extra boosters you're using is its own difficulty. A more sensible aerodynamic model would also aid this.

[Elthy]

More deltaV leading to more boosters would be a viable option...

[xcorps]

More boosters is fixable, and is in fact fixed to some degree already, by the addition of part count limits, size restrictions, tonnage restrictions, and funds. Some tweaking of those parameters should suffice until you get to the point where adding and controlling all the extra boosters you're using is its own difficulty. A more sensible aerodynamic model would also aid this.

This doesn't change the "getting to orbit is easy" part of the OP's complaint. It changes the design approach. A few biome hops and a few contract completions and you are right where we are now. All it changes is the time it takes to achieve an inventory capable of meeting the requirements for orbit. This is neither harder nor easier, just more time consuming.

[foamyesque]

This doesn't change the "getting to orbit is easy" part of the OP's complaint. It changes the design approach. A few biome hops and a few contract completions and you are right where we are now. All it changes is the time it takes to achieve an inventory capable of meeting the requirements for orbit. This is neither harder nor easier, just more time consuming.

I think this could be done reasonably well with payload management, contract work, a revamped tech tree, and building tiering. Early on, you have light payloads that can get to orbit but nowhere else-- your Mercury equivalent, say. It should just fit in under the limits of your starting tier buildings. Then you start needing to add mass and parts in the form of power supplies, life support, science gear, flight control bits, and so on, in order to get anywhere else, which will necessarily drive rockets larger. Change the starting kit so that you're not starting with two of the best engines in the game, but keep the goals of early contracts simple; by the time you've got the parts to make those contracts trivial, give the players contracts which will need those better parts.

You're thinking within the paradigm of the current, rather poorly balanced, contract and science setups. I'm talking about a whole-scale revamp of it all with the underlying goal of making the game scale more smoothly with what you're being asked to do with what you're given to do it with. If you want to grind KSC biomes for science in order to make getting into orbit with a single Kerbal easy, fine; once you've unlocked those parts, the game stops giving you easy contracts and goals and moves on.

"More boosters" as a solution works regardless of what the requirements to orbit are, BTW, so if your knock is that none of this changes the requirements for getting to orbit, I think your objection's irrelevant.

[Torquemadus]

In Career Mode, there are constraints that make it difficult to get a payload into orbit. These include cost, technology, weight limit, and part count limit. None of these constraints are present in Sandbox.

If launching stuff in Sandbox seems easy, I'd say it's working as intended.

[xcorps]

"More boosters" as a solution works regardless of what the requirements to orbit are, BTW, so if your knock is that none of this changes the requirements for getting to orbit, I think your objection's irrelevant.

My only objection is to the poorly defined concepts of "harder" and "easier". Revamping the tech tree and design constraints so that it takes 50 (or whatever number is arbitrarily chosen) launches to get an orbit capable vehicle is not harder than what we have now. It's just more time consuming.

I personally see no reason why we shouldn't have an orbit capable setup out of the box.

[sal_vager]

Chute

Mk1 pod

Nine FL-T200 fuel tanks

LV-T30

Orbit capable on the first launch in career, on any difficulty setting, if you can handle her....

[foamyesque]

My only objection is to the poorly defined concepts of "harder" and "easier". Revamping the tech tree and design constraints so that it takes 50 (or whatever number is arbitrarily chosen) launches to get an orbit capable vehicle is not harder than what we have now. It's just more time consuming.

I personally see no reason why we shouldn't have an orbit capable setup out of the box.

If you recall, I said this: "Early on, you have light payloads that can get to orbit but nowhere else-- your Mercury equivalent, say. It should just fit in under the limits of your starting tier buildings." I don't disagree that you should be able to put a Kerbal into orbit without upgrading anything, except possibly a few parts to make it simpler or more survivable. But it should be on the edge of what you can achieve with those pieces. Then you move on to making more complex missions, with trickier requirements, as people unlock the pieces they need to do them and to get the now-larger rockets into orbit.

Again, I'm not talking about grinding for the sake of grinding here. I'm talking about scaling goals to resources.

EDIT:

Yes Sal I know.

[Torquemadus]

My only objection is to the poorly defined concepts of "harder" and "easier".

The easiest way to make the game harder is to use the custom difficulty sliders. With very low contract rewards and zero starting funds, it can actually take quite a while to scrape together enough money to build an orbit capable rocket.

[Pecan]

Orbit capable on the first launch in career, on any difficulty setting, if you can handle her...

Add another tank for a powered-landing and, as I've shown elsewhere, you can upgrade the mission control, astronaut centre, launchpad and tracking centre by the end of your first 45-minute mission with default settings. Cheap ship, but a big step for a beginner. The tech-tree is sooo bad.

[Elthy]

Chute

Mk1 pod

Nine FL-T200 fuel tanks

LV-T30

Orbit capable on the first launch in career, on any difficulty setting, if you can handle her....

Thats what i mean, its actualy hard to design a LKO shuttle for crew thats not SSTO...

[EladDv]

Add another tank for a powered-landing and, as I've shown elsewhere, you can upgrade the mission control, astronaut centre, launchpad and tracking center by the end of your first 45-minute mission with default settings. Cheap ship, but a big step for a beginner. The tech-tree is sooo bad.

so if you feel it's too easy AND you want challenge just turn the difficulty up or even if you dont want to do that just install a variation of RSS. If you like to get to orbit and make useless/expansive/beautiful/replicas/just dumb (and dont want to deal with science/funds/the overpowered, useless, abundent and boring parameter ) stuff fire up sandbox and play to your heart's content- if you are still not happy install mods there are thousands of them. still not happy?-learn to program and develop a mod-this is the beauty of moddable games (if you are still not happy go cry to someone else)

[foamyesque]

The easiest way to make the game harder is to use the custom difficulty sliders. With very low contract rewards and zero starting funds, it can actually take quite a while to scrape together enough money to build an orbit capable rocket.

That's just grind for grind's sake, really. I'm not enthused.

I think I'd prefer to take the approach of making complex missions require complex rockets. Nerf pod torque so you need to build an RCS system or a separate reaction wheel. Nerf pod electricity, so you need batteries. Make batteries physics-significant and heavy. Ditto various science implements, particularly antennas. Add life support. Add duration requirements to certain contracts. Add a requirement for Kerbals to actually be present when you land on something, in specified numbers. Add contracts specifically for the return (and others for the transmission) of various science experiments, not just their collection. Add a decent aero system and re-entry heat so you can't throw any old thing into an atmosphere any old how and recover it as long as you put enough parachutes on it, and therefore have to figure out how to design and fly re-entry capable vehicles larger than a pod. Shift the tech tree around so that early parts are strictly less capable than later ones, perhaps by having tech unlock not just new parts but improvements to parts you already have. Change the rescue missions to require you to dock with an uncontrolled junk spacecraft. Add penalties to declining or letting expire certain contracts. Tighten contract deadlines so that you can't take forever to finish them.

There's lots of possible ideas out there, those're just some I've got. The point is you can add difficulty and challenge without making someone have to farm the same boring contract twenty times before they can do something else.