Pre-Munar Landing Anonymous - A support group

[Johno]

I have suddenly snapped.

I know there must be more than just me. If it\'s you, then it\'s time you got some support.

I have been playing KSP since version 8.5 - and I have to admit. I\'m yet to land on the Mun and safely return.

No, I know. Shocks you, doesn\'t it?

I\'ve had a few close calls - a lot of sad little craters that will be forever Kerbin; a few bounces off the surface leaving broken landing legs, requiring an abort; several Munar modules running out of fuel whilst still a thousand feet off the surface, requiring an abort; and at least eight command pods left in various locations on the Munar surface when their spacecraft toppled over.

Surely I\'m not the only one!

Say it proud. You\'re not alone. Like me you\'re a Pre-Munar Kerbal!

[DonLorenzo]

No, I\'m not. Sorry.

What do your landers look like?

[Johno]

To tell the truth, my current design is probably part of the problem - it\'s a bit top-heavy.

Quick question, then - does a small fuel tank with the Mun lander engine (stock) carry enough propellant to lift a pod and a complement of RCS thrusters (and an RCS tank) into a sufficiently high Munar orbit to be recaptured by Kerbin?

[DonLorenzo]

Yes, absolutely. The amount of fuel required to get back from the Mun is quite low

[Kosmo-not]

You only need around 900 delta-V to get back from the Mun\'s surface.

[mincespy]

Everything, apart from leaving Kerbin\'s atmosphere, is simple.

Keep that in mind when designing your Munar rockets.

[LaydeeDem]

I have a near flawless landing record. But none of my kerbonauts have returned yet...

[Richy teh space man]

I did struggle until they brought out the new thruster and landing legs..

Just remember F5 to quick save and F9 to reload, thats turned a few of my craters into safely landed craft

[Zephram Kerman]

I use F9 a lot. By the way, it\'s not obvious and needs to be said: you can still use F9 at the 'catastrophic failure' menu.

[Volt]

I used two RCS tanks, 8 or 12 (can\'t remember, probably 12) RCS blocks and the NP unmanned pod for my first two landings, which were within 8km of each other without any autopilot. Pure fluke with a side helping of orbital mechanics knowledge.

I suppose if you\'re interested in landing rather than Kerbal preservation, the stock Mk1 pod without a parachute or decoupler would do fine. Slightly more sketchy but ok.

[BlackShadow03]

I\'ve personally left several crashed ships on the Mun\'s surface, at least one abort because I ran out of fuel, and one toppled over lander. However, earlier this week I managed to get a lander on the Mun and have enough fuel to get the entire lander back. Granted, one of the six legs snapped off (and exploded evidently.....I swear the Orks made those things and I\'m glad they didn\'t get painted red) when I landed and only a quick hand on the controls made it twirl around and prevent a tipover. Made a beautiful shot the second I stopped celebrating.

The place where the lander leg is missing is visible in this shot as well.

It was one of my older scrapped designs as well. I was primarily just testing some new graphics settings and shot for the Mun for kicks. I didn\'t actually expect it to land since it had no Advanced SAS on the lander, hardly any RCS fuel left, had an inefficient accent stage, and had no proper return capsule. All stock parts, by the way.

Keep trying, you might stick a landing when you least expect it!

[Sabactus]

Is MechJeb considered cheating?

[samstarman5]

I did struggle until they brought out the new thruster and landing legs..

Just remember F5 to quick save and F9 to reload, thats turned a few of my craters into safely landed craft

That\'s fine for you guys, but Neil didn\'t get an F5 feature, so neither do I. Autosave for a game like this feels like taking a lot of the core challenge away. Even if it means starting back at Kerbal Spaceport, again.

What would make this easier is when we can do exploded views for the assembly, which should allow keeping your launch stages and merely changing your payload. Grossly overestimating or underestimating what you put on your lander package can affect strongly how the mission goes. Too much, and that\'s more weight working against you and reducing your odds of a safe landing on the Mun. Too little, and you might end up stuck in an orbit between Kerbin and the Mun as I did with one mission.

I\'m hoping that there are thoughts down the line of us being able to establish a Mun base from which to launch missions to other planets. It would allow people to practice handling the Mun\'s gravity, as well as ease the requirements of interplanetary craft.

[maltesh]

That\'s fine for you guys, but Neil didn\'t get an F5 feature, so neither do I. Autosave for a game like this feels like taking a lot of the core challenge away. Even if it means starting back at Kerbal Spaceport, again.

Neil wasn\'t making his first attempts to learn to land an LEM on July 19, 1969. By the time he\'d gotten there, he\'d had plenty of Earthside practice in simulated lunar gravity.

I learned to Munland by flying an infinite-fuel craft into Munar orbit and dropping off an infinite fuel lander.

Then did the same with a finite-fuel lander.

Then did the same with a spacecraft that had finite fuel from Kerbin orbit onward.

Then built a craft that could put the finite-fuel ship into orbit.

As a result, I didn\'t have to redesign my craft /too/ much at each stage, and knew that, once I learned how to do the part of the mission I was working out, the rest of the mission would be something I already knew how to do.

[Redrumsalad]

I only use F9 when my MechJeb decides to want to land at the beach :/

I did think that I would never make it back from the Mun. I landed with a lander of 2 side fuel tanks with fuel lines going to the engine, then I put something in orbit around Kerbin, and it wouldn\'t launch. I pressed space and orbited the Mun, then to at least try to make it back home (not thinking i would and would just get in a wide orbit around Kerbin) I burned away from the Mun and it got into a wide orbit, but a hefty amount of fuel still left on the escape stage. I actually landed and the CP is still on the surface of Kerbin

[Kreuzung]

Well, I only achieved 2 Kerbin orbits without using ion engines and I then only had a single decoupler left for retro-burn (failed). That is the result of 2 weeks of playing KSP...

[Trekky0623]

Reminds me of the episode 'Spider' from From the Earth to the Moon. The simplest way to the moon, really, is Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. Unless you have a dedicated landing craft (which we can\'t have because there is no docking system yet to join it with it\'s mothercraft), you have to land a huge craft on the moon in order to get back home.

The relevant clip. It\'s a great miniseries if you haven\'t watched it.

[AD-Edge]

Is MechJeb considered cheating?

Depends on whether an assisted landing counts (which would most likely be a subjective question)

Personally I would call it \'cheating\', because the true challenge is being able to land using your own skills - completely unassisted.

And yeh, up until a couple of weeks ago I haddnt managed a proper Mun landing, and Id been playing since 0.7.3...

Sometimes youve just got to sit down for a couple of hours and work on it, it can take a lot of effort. Also, watch some video demonstrations of Munar missions, the thing which helped me most was learning about the most efficient ways of getting to the Mun (like trans lunar injection techniques), and then having a much more structured approach to the mission. It takes work, but you guys will get there

- also make sure your lander section has RCS, my first didnt, and it was one hell of a battle getting that thing to stay stable, previous missions ended in disaster because of some last second non-rcs mistakes.

[PakledHostage]

Neil wasn\'t making his first attempts to learn to land an LEM on July 19, 1969. By the time he\'d gotten there, he\'d had plenty of Earthside practice in simulated lunar gravity.

But you could build a spacecraft with comparable thrust-to-weight ratio and practice flying that around KSC?

I agree with samstarman5. I spent a lot of time learning to hover and doing extensive preparation before I ever flew my Kerballo 11 mission. I flew a Kerballo 8 mission around the Mun, Kerballo 9 to test my lander in low Kerbin orbit. Kerballo 10 was my Munar dress rehersal mission. That mission tested my lander in Munar orbit and made a trial descent/abort. I only lost a single crew during these missions. The crew of Kerballo 10 was lost in a 5000 km by 12000 km Kerbin orbit after they ran out of fuel returning to Kerbin. The board of inquiry blamed that accident on engineering errors and inadequate crew training.

It was more than a month after the Mun was first introduced into the game before Kerballo 11\'s Pheonix lander touched down in the Sea of Pandemonium. I flew all my Kerballo missions real time, too.

All of that preparation and commitment made it all the more satisfying when I finally did land on the Mun. I still remember how my heart was racing when the boys shut down on the Munar surface and announced to KSC that 'the Phoenix has landed'.

PH.

[Sabactus]

Depends on whether an assisted landing counts (which would most likely be a subjective question)

Personally I would call it \'cheating\', because the true challenge is being able to land using your own skills - completely unassisted.

And yeh, up until a couple of weeks ago I haddnt managed a proper Mun landing, and Id been playing since 0.7.3...

Sometimes youve just got to sit down for a couple of hours and work on it, it can take a lot of effort. Also, watch some video demonstrations of Munar missions, the thing which helped me most was learning about the most efficient ways of getting to the Mun (like trans lunar injection techniques), and then having a much more structured approach to the mission. It takes work, but you guys will get there

- also make sure your lander section has RCS, my first didnt, and it was one hell of a battle getting that thing to stay stable, previous missions ended in disaster because of some last second non-rcs mistakes.

Well the reason I ask is because if you include my assisted and my unassisted landings together I\'ve landed on the moon probably 50-75 times. If you only count the unassisted its like <10. MechJeb just makes accurate and repeatable landings easier. Just give it a proper vehicle and it can put 10 different vehicles on the moon within about a 0.5 km radius.

[Kreuzung]

give it a proper vehicle

What to do if your lack of skills starts in the VAB?

[Sabactus]

What to do if your lack of skills starts in the VAB?

Well for moon shots you just need to keep in mind a few things when at the design table. You don\'t need a lot of fuel or power to land and return all you have to do is get half way back to Kerbin and the gravity well does the rest, just keep some fuel for deorbit. Tall is bad, you want your landers shot a squat so that if you give it a less than perfect landing it doesn\'t go all tippy on you. My best landers followed the K.I.S.S. principle.

[TNTGODZZ]

all i can say, is to get as much weight into munar orbit, and then return. then go for a landing with a real craft. it was only recently i wen back to the mun, this time the challenge was simple though: stcok only. i had never got to the mun and back without mods, but i can safely say i can make it there and back withou mods, first time*

*based on experiences, i have gained the ability for first time landings

[greghorst]

I had trouble for a while but then I put myself under a training regimen. I built myself the equivalent of the flying bed-stand, a rocket to get the craft barley hover, and then proceeded to practice maneuvers all around the KSP until I felt confident enough to go to the Mun.

Be warned: this cannot take into account all factors. On Kerbin, the air resistance will slow your drift, the Mun will not. The Mun has slopes, around the KSP there aren\'t. Really all this did for me was to get the right finger twitches for the right reactions when I was hovering at the last moments before landing. Even so it was still a few near misses before a successful return. I find the real trick balancing the burn on the way down so that I don\'t crash into the surface.

[Kreuzung]

I find the real trick balancing the burn on the way down so that I don\'t crash into the surface.

I sometimes don\'t get that on Kerbin with parachute or autopilot support... Is it easier to get satellites in a Mun orbit or to land there (can be no-return with MechJeb pods)