[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[Yemo]

I believe that FlowerChild does this in his Better Than Starting Manned mod [link]. From looking through the files, it appears that he wrote his own custom modules that had the tech checking code in them.

Will take a look at that in the future, thank you for the suggestion.

@Errol:

Yes, it is more an emergency/no time delay mechanism.

Cant wait for MKS/OKS, but I ll wait until the bugs have been figured out and hopefully procedural storage tanks are available.

But it will integrate into an existing campaign, if you want to start before "support"...

- - - Updated - - -

Other than that, Papa_Joe from the ShipManifestMod announced the implementation of a "pull-request" which will make the mod compatible with SETI-BalanceMod.

So the next 0.7.2 will hopefully support ShipManifest, adjustableLandingGear and KAS/EVA PortableScienceContainer.

Also some more contracts will be implemented.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Yemo

[Papa_Joe]

...

Other than that, Papa_Joe from the ShipManifestMod announced the implementation of a "pull-request" which will make the mod compatible with SETI-BalanceMod.

So the next 0.7.2 will hopefully support ShipManifest, adjustableLandingGear and KAS/EVA PortableScienceContainer.

Also some more contracts will be implemented.

Just a small clarification.

The pull request is to add CLS (ConnectedLivingSpace) Hatch management functionality to SM (Ship Manifest). I've implemented the pull request on CLS. The Mod owner (codepoet) will need to release a new version to implement the needed API features before I will release my next version.

The updates for supporting SETI-BalanceMod are already in place in my code, and will be included with the next release of SM, along with the new Hatch Management features.

Thanks so much for recommending SM!

[DwarfPlanetTossing]

Really like the direction where this mod is going, especially the adding meaningful choices to the tech tree.

Any thoughts on adding settings for Real Fuels? As of now, Procedural Parts has additional settings for Real Fuels that makes new liquid tanks that aren't integrated in the SETI tech tree (shapes are reserved for higher levels). Note: I use Kerbal ISP Difficulty Scaler alongside Real Fuels. Other mods I like to use in playing (these have no conflict with SETI) are Telemachus (not yet updated for 0.90) and kOS.

Real Fuels sacrifices some simplicity for realism (and as far as I know is the only mod that allows thrust to scale with ISP), so I'm not sure if it's what you have in mind for the pack.

[SwGustav]

Don't know if you're aware, but B9 omni lights are in start tech, rather illogical to have them there?

Also, a suggestion to add Precise Node to mod list, it's really helpful with other recommended mods. (IIRC it was in previous mod list, I'm probably mistaken)

[Yemo]

@Papa_Joe:

Thank you for the clarification. I will probably split the patch then.

Ship Manifest is one of those no parts/huge gameplay effect mods, offering a sizeable increase in comfort as well as great new gameplay mechanics/strategies (eg how to return since).

I m looking forward to playing with it without the need for house rules ;-).

Really like the direction where this mod is going, especially the adding meaningful choices to the tech tree.

Any thoughts on adding settings for Real Fuels? As of now, Procedural Parts has additional settings for Real Fuels that makes new liquid tanks that aren't integrated in the SETI tech tree (shapes are reserved for higher levels). Note: I use Kerbal ISP Difficulty Scaler alongside Real Fuels. Other mods I like to use in playing (these have no conflict with SETI) are Telemachus (not yet updated for 0.90) and kOS.

Real Fuels sacrifices some simplicity for realism (and as far as I know is the only mod that allows thrust to scale with ISP), so I'm not sure if it's what you have in mind for the pack.

Thank you.

I considered RealFuels, but decided against it because I simply do not have the time to support it. It has major consequences for balancing and especially for balance/compatibility testing in new versions (I would have to test updates not only on stock and fully modded, but also with and without RealFuels), which takes up most of my time anyway.

About the "shape" progression. I really do not quite understand this, it seems to me like an "artificial" progression (which I do not like). Thats why I removed it for nearly all the other procedural parts. You can take a look at the original PP configs and my module manager config for procedural parts and then just remove the restrictions yourself. It takes a bit to get used to mm statements and the whole structure, but it is really useful for customization of the game without having to edit after every update.

Don't know if you're aware, but B9 omni lights are in start tech, rather illogical to have them there?

Also, a suggestion to add Precise Node to mod list, it's really helpful with other recommended mods. (IIRC it was in previous mod list, I'm probably mistaken)

Putting the B9 omni lights at the start was a conscious choice. I was simply annoyed of handling my vessels when they are in the shadow of Kerbin/Mun whatever. So I searched for simple, color configurable position/self illumination lights and put them at the beginning to remove that problem. Now, for as little as 1 part cost, I can at least easily see the orientation of my vessel at all times.

Also, should that mod be used in some video/stream in the future, a small omni light can make the difference between "cant see anything" and "at least I can figure out whats going on".

Thank you for the PreciseNode suggestion, I dont know why it is not recommended (since I use it), will remedy that oversight in a minute.

[ghimb2000]

Not sure if it's a SETI problem, but I can't seem to complete the unmanned space contract (Get into Space). Went up to Space , orbited and recovered but contract doesn't complete.

[PeterPan]

I have the same issue. Not a great problem but a little bit annoying

[nightingale]

Not sure if it's a SETI problem, but I can't seem to complete the unmanned space contract (Get into Space). Went up to Space , orbited and recovered but contract doesn't complete.

I have the same issue. Not a great problem but a little bit annoying

Not sure if you guys are referring to the one titled "Escape the atmosphere!" or "Orbit around Kerbin!".

Both worked for me, but if it's the orbit one, then check the contract window - the way that Yemo's got it set up there's a duration of 40 minutes on it (meaning you must stay in orbit for 40 minutes). Note however that if you switch vessels to one that's on the ground the timer will reset (as it will switch to look at the active vessel).

Yemo - I'd suggest using the duration attribute on VesselParameterGroup. It'll work basically the same as what you have, but it will track across non-active vessels.

[ghimb2000]

I mean the Escape the Atmosphere. Doesn't seem to work even when I escape the atmosphere. Is it supposed to be "manned escape the atmosphere" instead?

[SwGustav]

Putting the B9 omni lights at the start was a conscious choice. I was simply annoyed of handling my vessels when they are in the shadow of Kerbin/Mun whatever. So I searched for simple, color configurable position/self illumination lights and put them at the beginning to remove that problem. Now, for as little as 1 part cost, I can at least easily see the orientation of my vessel at all times.

The thing is, career starts at morning, and you can complete orbit contract before the dawn, without ever needing light sources. Wouldn't putting these lights at least at survivability be more fitting (which you reach right at the end of first day)? Also, 1 part is a big cost such early on (with all other antennas, life support, batteries)

[nightingale]

I mean the Escape the Atmosphere. Doesn't seem to work even when I escape the atmosphere. Is it supposed to be "manned escape the atmosphere" instead?

We'll have to see what Yemo says on this one. From the Contract Configurator side, he's just using ReachSpace (which is stock), and will fire when any vessel reaches space (manned or unmanned). It worked for me when I tested yesterday, but I don't actually have SETI installed, so maybe one of the other mods makes a change that breaks it?

[Yemo]

Not sure if you guys are referring to the one titled "Escape the atmosphere!" or "Orbit around Kerbin!".

Both worked for me, but if it's the orbit one, then check the contract window - the way that Yemo's got it set up there's a duration of 40 minutes on it (meaning you must stay in orbit for 40 minutes). Note however that if you switch vessels to one that's on the ground the timer will reset (as it will switch to look at the active vessel).

Yemo - I'd suggest using the duration attribute on VesselParameterGroup. It'll work basically the same as what you have, but it will track across non-active vessels.

Thank you for the tip, I will change the contract to using the VPG. While 40 min are bearable, I will later introduce much longer duration contracts, which have to work for inactive vessels.

I mean the Escape the Atmosphere. Doesn't seem to work even when I escape the atmosphere. Is it supposed to be "manned escape the atmosphere" instead?

I have no idea how it can not work. The contract uses one of the simplest parameters/structures I can think of.

I just tested the contract with minimal mods and with full mods. Both times I just had to bring a vessel beyond 70km. With FAR I was able to do this with the start techs, just HECS, NoseCone, Thruster @ 10kN and DP-10. With minimal mods, I didnt need the DP-10 but set the thruster to 0.625m diameter and 3.5m length @ 20kN. Launching straight up, the contract was completed after passing the 70km mark. I did not have electricity at that point either.

Do you and PeterPan use any mods which are not listed in the original post? Do you have the latest version of ContractConfigurator installed?

Can you please try out a new campaign and just try to fulfill the contract with the start/basic setup (eg by giving yourself science at the start, for testing)?

The thing is, career starts at morning, and you can complete orbit contract before the dawn, without ever needing light sources. Wouldn't putting these lights at least at survivability be more fitting (which you reach right at the end of first day)? Also, 1 part is a big cost such early on (with all other antennas, life support, batteries)

The light source helps when you want to start your reentry burn in orbit. Also, I can not think of a reason to not have simple lights available at the start. It would be a progression for its own sake. Honestly, I only left the stronger lights further back, because I did not want to clutter the start tech anymore.

Imho progression for its own sake is only annoying. I can understand why a basic rocket program does not have access to planes (neither of the real world rocket programs had its own planes in the beginning), but not having access to simple light sources would be quite a stretch.

I agree that with FAR, and some other stuff, 1 part has quite some value, but then again I prefer to leave that decision to the player without too many artificial restrictions.

Also, I generally try to plan ahead and have a larger mod compatibility in mind, than what I can currently test. For that reason, KerbalConstructionTime springs to mind, where the early progression can take quite some time (certainly longer than a day).

[Yemo]

I need help testing the revised contracts for version 7.2.

Unfortunately I have only limited time available at the moment, thus I can not fully (in all circumstances) test the contracts myself.

It would be great if you could help with that. All remarks/recommendations will help, so I can finally release 7.2 in the coming days.

Especially the contract progression, the fulfillment parameters and the fund balancing of the later contracts needs some input.

You can download the new contracts here (please merge the SETI folder in the download with your current SETI folder and overwrite the 2 existing files):

edit: Contracts are now part of the 0.7.2 release, but feedback is still needed for balancing!

A new career and using the S.A.V.E mod and quicksaves in general are recommended for easier testing.

Please let me know about your findings (and whether you play with FAR/DeadlyReentry for funds balancing)

The following progression/contracts should be in the download (though the first 3 contracts are available from the start):

Edited February 5, 2015 by Yemo

[ghimb2000]

I have no idea how it can not work. The contract uses one of the simplest parameters/structures I can think of.

I just tested the contract with minimal mods and with full mods. Both times I just had to bring a vessel beyond 70km. With FAR I was able to do this with the start techs, just HECS, NoseCone, Thruster @ 10kN and DP-10. With minimal mods, I didnt need the DP-10 but set the thruster to 0.625m diameter and 3.5m length @ 20kN. Launching straight up, the contract was completed after passing the 70km mark. I did not have electricity at that point either.

Seems like it works if I didn't checkout the Manned 18km and the Reach Space at the same time. Let me try again with a new save to try and reproduce the issue. My runs with TweakScale seems to be a little bit crashy on the side.

[PeterPan]

I'll test it asap, but not much time now. It is the "Escape the Athmosphere" contract. Unfortunately there is no way to cancel the contract, therefore it's blocking one slot.

[Yemo]

I encountered the issue with the "Escape the atmosphere" contract. I did the "manned 18km altitude" contract and then separately afterwards the "escape the atmosphere" one.

Strangely the latter one was not completed when I crossed the 70km space boundary as before. However it was completed when I hit about 87km altitude. In another try I completed it at about the same altitude.

However I m wondering whether it has to to with the time between finishing the manned altitude contract and the escape atmosphere one, rather than the particular altitude.

For now, I made all contracts cancellable, however that does not apply to currently active and offered contracts (those seem to be stored in the save file), as far as I can tell.

New Version 0.7.2

Contracts

• Rebalanced early contracts
  
• All SETI-Contracts can now be cancelled (eg to deal with bugs)
  
• WARNING: There is still a problem with the "Leave the atmosphere" contract
  
• You sometimes need a higher altitude/longer time above 70km for completion, or wait some time after completing a previous contract
  
• It seems to happen, if you complete the manned 18km altitude contract right before the "leave the atmosphere" contract
  
• New early progression contracts, please see the image in the OP of the forum thread
  

Extended Mod Support

• Adjustable Landing Gear
  
• Bahamuto Dynamics
  
• Portable Science Container (backpack)
  

Sample craft files

• Separated craft folders:
  
• One with the current craft for minimal dependency installs (ProceduralParts, TweakScale, DeadlyReentry for Recoverable Probe)
  
• New craft folder for fully modded install (dV and TWR settings for FAR, DP-10 for RemoteTech, TAC life support requirements, UniversalStorage, etc...)
  
• New lander and manned Orbiter sample craft
  

Rebalances and Adjustments

• Earlier stock TurboJet (for those Survey Kerbin contracts), BahamutoDynamics provides an advanced TurboJet
  
• DeltaWing and SmallDeltaWing removed (leftovers from 0.7.0)
  

Minor Changes and Fixes

Edited February 5, 2015 by Yemo

[Errol]

Is this compatable with http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/108785-0-90-ADIOS-Tech-Tree-V-09-03-02-2015/page6?

[Papa_Joe]

I encountered the issue with the "Escape the atmosphere" contract. I did the "manned 18km altitude" contract and then separately afterwards the "escape the atmosphere" one.

Strangely the latter one was not completed when I crossed the 70km space boundary as before. However it was completed when I hit about 87km altitude. In another try I completed it at about the same altitude.

...

Interesting. Upon reading this, I wonder if the altitude is an "addition error"? 18k + 70k = 88k... very close to the "magic" number you hit? maybe an altitude setting is not getting cleared, so the delta ends up lower than it should be?

Just a thought...

[nightingale]

Interesting. Upon reading this, I wonder if the altitude is an "addition error"? 18k + 70k = 88k... very close to the "magic" number you hit? maybe an altitude setting is not getting cleared, so the delta ends up lower than it should be?

Just a thought...

It's really odd, since Contract Configurator just uses the stock parameter. Hypothetically, you should be able to even run them side by side and (hopefully) get the same behaviour. As far as I know, the stock parameter just looks for the reached space "achievement", which should fire as soon as you hit a suborbital trajectory.

Interesting thought experiment - this means if you have a very interesting trajectory - something like go to 65 km, raise the other side of your orbit to 70km+, you would be sub-orbital. You could then lower your apoapsis and meet the parameter without having technically reached space.

EDIT: Check the logs for any exceptions at all.... an unrelated exception can put the game in a "fun" state and cause all kinds of stuff to not work.... that could be what we're seeing here?

[Wiseman]

I'm having an odd compatibility issue with Station Science. Whenever I right-click on the TH-NKR module (the main science lab), the game throws a single null reference exception in the log, and then makes me unable to see ANY right-click menus until I close out of the game. My logs are posted in this support thread:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/109165-Station-Science-TH-NKR-Science-Lab-breaking-rightclick-menus-in-VAB-and-flight

[ghimb2000]

Seems another Tech Tree Mod is also experiencing the contract problem here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90938-Mod-Oriented-Tech-Tree-%28January-5-v0-3-1%29?p=1711917&viewfull=1#post1711917

Just to narrow things down a little bit.

[Yemo]

Is this compatable with http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/108785-0-90-ADIOS-Tech-Tree-V-09-03-02-2015/page6?

I havent tried it, but from a first glance it is rather unlikely. I ll have to take a closer look, but I havent read about how it starts (probes?) and progresses in detail. I m also not sure which configs have priority/how it integrates specifically. Some areas are certainly different, eg with B9ProceduralParts, I do not have any wing progression in the SETI-BalanceMod anymore, while the Adios Tech Tree seems to have multiple nodes for wings alone.

With the bug reports here and the work on Ka/MKS/OKS integration, it will take a while until I can take a closer look.

Interesting. Upon reading this, I wonder if the altitude is an "addition error"? 18k + 70k = 88k... very close to the "magic" number you hit? maybe an altitude setting is not getting cleared, so the delta ends up lower than it should be?

Just a thought...

It's really odd, since Contract Configurator just uses the stock parameter. Hypothetically, you should be able to even run them side by side and (hopefully) get the same behaviour. As far as I know, the stock parameter just looks for the reached space "achievement", which should fire as soon as you hit a suborbital trajectory.

Interesting thought experiment - this means if you have a very interesting trajectory - something like go to 65 km, raise the other side of your orbit to 70km+, you would be sub-orbital. You could then lower your apoapsis and meet the parameter without having technically reached space.

EDIT: Check the logs for any exceptions at all.... an unrelated exception can put the game in a "fun" state and cause all kinds of stuff to not work.... that could be what we're seeing here?

I will try to replace the "ReachSpace" parameter with a generic "ReachState" and "altitude = 70000" parameter. It might just be another bug in the stock games progression parameters...

I'm having an odd compatibility issue with Station Science. Whenever I right-click on the TH-NKR module (the main science lab), the game throws a single null reference exception in the log, and then makes me unable to see ANY right-click menus until I close out of the game. My logs are posted in this support thread:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/109165-Station-Science-TH-NKR-Science-Lab-breaking-rightclick-menus-in-VAB-and-flight

It looks like StationScience uses the index of the modules to refer to them in the dll, instead of the name. That is kind of the worst thing for compatibility with modulemanager edits.

The problem seems to be, that I added a module to the TH-NKR (the one that boosts transmission efficiency), and that this module is not (as written in the modulemanager documentation) added to the end of the list, but at the front, thus screwing with the indexing...

Seems another Tech Tree Mod is also experiencing the contract problem here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90938-Mod-Oriented-Tech-Tree-%28January-5-v0-3-1%29?p=1711917&viewfull=1#post1711917

Just to narrow things down a little bit.

The issue over there is likely related to the buggy stock altitude contracts, which have to be completed with a manned vessel, although no indication of that restriction is given in the contract description.

This was one of the original reasons, why I started using the contract configurator.

Since his tech tree start with probes as well, I will talk to him about using the SETI starting contracts.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Yemo

[ghimb2000]

I'm getting 100 exception throws per second of ModuleParachute when using SETI. Removed SETI and it was gone. Perhaps a ModuleManager configuration bug?

I'm using this plugin by the way:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/109463-ExceptionDetector-1-1-KSP-0-90

[nightingale]

I will try to replace the "ReachSpace" parameter with a generic "ReachState" and "altitude = 70000" parameter. It might just be another bug in the stock games progression parameters...

I'll replace the buggy stock ReachSpace with a custom one in ContractConfigurator - that way you can leave your contracts as is.

[Papa_Joe]

I'll replace the buggy stock ReachSpace with a custom one in ContractConfigurator - that way you can leave your contracts as is.

Just curious, with planet scaling, would that number need to be scaled as well? With support for mods like RSS that change the scale, space will be a different altitude, yes?

I don't claim any knowledge, but just voicing concern at a seemingly simple fix...