How to build up the nerve to go to Duna?

[Sirrobert]

As I understand it, MechJeb does now have an automated system for rendezvous. And possibly even docking, but I won't commit to that statement even at gunpoint.

But I have a feeling most people, when they mean rendezvous, tend to say docking? Because for a lot of people, docking is a logical follow-through for rendezvous. But I could be wrong.

It does. You wanna know how I learned to rendezvous? By watching Mechjeb do it a few times. There is a docking autocomputer, but it's excruciatingly inefficient, and will frustrate anyone who tries it into doing it themselves (or kill Kerbals trying)

I too havent gone to Duna yet. I dont get when the planets are in the right phase. I'm at day 84 and every calender/calc which tells you when to launch is sooooo many days in the future it seems like it will take forever to just get to the launch window. Maybe I'm playing to linear just doing other flights while I have a flight going to Minmus/Mun. I do have KAC but dont have MJ or KER. I guess I should install them so I know about the deltaV which Ive been just guessing at. Can one turn off MJ and use it just for the deltaV info?

Actually Mechjeb is off until you turn it on. So yes, you can use it for only the info.

Infact, if you use career mode, you have to unlock different MJ functions seperatly. At first you have nothing, after a few nodes you can unlock the information, few nodes later comes manouvernode excecution, ect

Edited January 27, 2015 by Sirrobert

[Pseudo Gold]

Don't worry OP, I still have yet to go to Duna. I may have a lot of plans for the Kerbin system, but I still can't get Duna (not that I've tried bar a failed rover). Eve is far easier to get to though from my experience. I lauched outside of a transfer window but I still got an encounter. A little aerobraking and you're done. No coming back though...

I'd say having an eye on how much delta-v you have left is very important. It's the only reason I still have MechJeb installed (that and emergencies).

[trevize1138]

I dont get when the planets are in the right phase.

Here's the most simplified explanation of how to know you're inside the Duna transfer window I've ever seen:

To get into this alignment I always go to the tracking station where I can do max time warp and wait until the two planets are in this position. Doesn't have to be perfect by any means: eyeballing it is just fine.

[Sirrobert]

Here's the most simplified explanation of how to know you're inside the Duna transfer window I've ever seen:

http://i.imgur.com/f4JVKSL.png

To get into this alignment I always go to the tracking station where I can do max time warp and wait until the two planets are in this position. Doesn't have to be perfect by any means: eyeballing it is just fine.

To predict allignment in advance, there is a very helfull tool:

http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/

[Pecan]

Can one turn off MJ and use it just for the deltaV info?

MJ has a lot of different modules that you can choose to use or not as and when appropriate. I use ascent guidance because I sometimes do 40-odd launches a day, testing vehicles, and I want repeatability in the flying. When I do want to fly a launch myself I just don't turn that function on. THE best module for me though is Custom Window Editor - which lets you display exactly the information you want in whatever windows as you want.

[TheSaint]

No, no, I mustn't get into another off-topic debate about MJ.

Some people think guessing or using a sliderule is cheating, there's no right way to play.

Everybody repeat after me: If you're having fun, you're playing the right way. If you're not having fun, you're playing the wrong way. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Can one turn off MJ and use it just for the deltaV info?

You can just not use it, MJ doesn't prevent you from doing anything manually. In fact on the T&D maneuver on that Duna mission I posted above I had to do the docking manually because MJ screwed it up royally.

[Alshain]

To predict allignment in advance, there is a very helfull tool:

http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/

And if you want that tool in-game...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/93115-0-90-Transfer-Window-Planner-v1-2-3-0-%28Jan-11%29

[Pecan]

And if you want that tool in-game...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/93115-0-90-Transfer-Window-Planner-v1-2-3-0-%28Jan-11%29

*Grin* Or MJ, which has the same thing.

[Wallygator]

I suggest Kerbal engineer and Kerbal Alarm Clock and a base.

After that, keep it all as small as possible. If you can get to Mun you can get to Duna. If you can return from Mun, you can return from Duna. There is an incremental dV adjustment obviously, but nothing that can be dealt with if you know how to do Mun and Minmus operations. Frankly, Duna has a minimal atmosphere so chutes are your friend. Its scary the first time you plunge at high speed at less than 750m waiting for your chutes to open, but wow when your lander plops onto the surface in one piece. Good luck!!!

[Hund]

I wasn't aware MJ is parts on the tech tree. Can you install it mid career or do you have to install and start a new career? I'm at the last line in tech so Ive almost unlocked everything. Thanks for the info. Seems alot of people use it so I might as well.

Moho seems to be the first encounter according to KAC in another 53 or so days. That might be the first planet I send a probe to then. Thanks

[Norpo]

Moho seems to be the first encounter according to KAC in another 53 or so days. That might be the first planet I send a probe to then. Thanks

Fair warning: Moho is somewhat easy to get to (certainly harder than Duna, though), but you'll spend a LOT of fuel slowing down if you want to get to orbit. Probably not the easiest target.

[TheSaint]

Fair warning: Moho is somewhat easy to get to (certainly harder than Duna, though), but you'll spend a LOT of fuel slowing down if you want to get to orbit. Probably not the easiest target.

This^ I've been playing KSP for two years now, and the only places I have yet to drop a manned landing on are Moho and Gilly. Gilly because I just haven't bothered, and Moho because it is a pain in the kiester. Although, now that I'm thinking about it....

[makinyashikino]

I remember when I first went to Duna. If it makes you feel better, send a probe! If you lose it, it doesn't really matter, unless you strapped a poor kerbal to it!

[Sidereus]

Fail, and fail often. Don't be afraid to take risks, make mistakes and learn from them ... this is the KSP way of things. I've spent 10+ hours on a mission only to realize I forgot an essential piece and had to scrap the whole thing and start over.

I once got all the way into Duna orbit only to realize I had forgot to put an antenna on top of my manned lander.

Luckily, I had placed a small docking port on that ship. So I built an entirely new unmanned ship, put a small detachable antennae module with a docking port on the top of it, then sent it all the way to Duna to deliver the module.

Most expensive antennae ever.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Sidereus

[Sirrobert]

I wasn't aware MJ is parts on the tech tree. Can you install it mid career or do you have to install and start a new career? I'm at the last line in tech so Ive almost unlocked everything. Thanks for the info. Seems alot of people use it so I might as well.

Moho seems to be the first encounter according to KAC in another 53 or so days. That might be the first planet I send a probe to then. Thanks

Yup, no problem installing it mid career. Like all part mods, it will add the parts to the respective tech nodes, and you can than buy those parts in that node like you always do when you unlock a new node

I once got all the way into Duna orbit only to realize I had forgot to put an antenna on top of my manned lander.

Luckily, I had placed a small docking port on that ship. So I built an entirely new unmanned ship, put a small detachable antennae module with a docking port on the top of it, then sent it all the way to Duna to deliver the module.

Most expensive antennae ever.

But... WHY? You don't even need an antenna if they are going to come home anyway

[Beachernaut]

Keep playing and practice transfers. The more you play, the more of a "feel" you'll get for what you need for the next step. Practice the Mun to Minmus transfer, it's similar to a Duna transfer with less DV needed, although some may consider it more difficult due to the inclination change needed. Also If you mess up you're still close for a rescue mission. I personally have used this and a DV map successfully for a couple years now. It may not be as accurate as some stuff out there, but it's close enough for me to get the job done.

Mods/tools can be helpful also. I have no experience with Protractor or KER, but I do use Mechjeb extensively. I agree with the caution to learn maneuvers manually before using Mechjeb to do them. Otherwise, they are good tools if you choose to use them.

[Sidereus]

But... WHY? You don't even need an antenna if they are going to come home anyway

Who said they were coming home?

Actually, I had a fairly limited number of science instruments onboard, so I needed to be able to transmit some of it if I wanted to get everything I could both in orbit and while landed.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Sidereus

[Sirrobert]

Right, my bad

[gazzareth]

I tend to use Kerbal Alarm Clock to tell me when to go and Mechjeb to tell me how much dV I have. Then I tend to overbuild ridiculously, normally everything with nuclear engines as well. I suspect someone who is better at saving dV than me could have taken my Duna lander from Kerbin, landed at Duna and Ike and made it back to Kerbin. I sent it there attached to another ship and left it in orbit around Duna, and I had enough fuel left in the mothership to fully fuel the lander and make it back to Kerbin with enough dV left to visit Minimus if I felt like it.

Ridiculously overbuilt, currently working on adding more fuel to the mothership for my next run - why i don't know - sure the design has more than enough - it would probably do Eeloo...

G

[Bill Phil]

Just go, man. It's not impossible... But I would start by practicing with a ship that you know can do it. And practice with it Kerbin SOI...

[LameLefty]

Moho seems to be the first encounter according to KAC in another 53 or so days. That might be the first planet I send a probe to then. Thanks

Oh dear Jebus, no. Not unless you're really comfortable with failure. Flyby's are easy, orbiting much less-so. Moho's orbit is not quite in the same plane as Kerbin's, which means you really ought to plan on a mid-course plane change to match once outside Kerbin's SOI, and that will cost dV. Second, because Moho's orbit is so much lower than Kerbin's, your craft will essentially be speeding up as it "sundives" deeper into the solar gravity well from Kerbin's substantially-higher orbital altitude So that means you have to plan on slowing down - a lot! - to make orbit once you arrive. Moho isn't that big, so you can't count on its gravity slowing you all that much once inside its SOI, and it has no atmosphere to help by aerobraking at periapsis on your planetary approach.

But as the others have said all day, Duna isn't that hard once you grasp some basic concepts - ~1,000 m/s to get there, maybe 700-ish or so return from Duna orbit to Kerbin (going from memory). Duna itself is smaller than Kerbin so you only need to get to about 45 km for a stable orbit after landing, which can be done solely with parachutes (bring lots of them - the air is thin!).

Try, fail, learn, succeed (and Quick-Save is your friend! ).

[GoSlash27]

I remember when I first went to Duna. If it makes you feel better, send a probe! If you lose it, it doesn't really matter, unless you strapped a poor kerbal to it!

^This. If you're nervous about sending a manned mission, send an unmanned mission. Once you've worked out the kinks, you won't be nervous about doing it for real.

Best,

-Slashy

[Matt the Cat]

Practice, practice, practice!!! Also, remember that its only a game.

[boxman]

The problem is that, without any deltaV readouts (the thing people suggest KER or Mechjeb for), building a good ship is basicly guessing. And guessing is fine if you want to get to Kerbin orbit. You just add abit of fuel if you fall short.

But for an entire round trip to Duna, you don't want to realize halfway through your return burn that you are JUST short of getting home. You want to be sure

PS: There is no automated system for docking, so how exactly does having Mechjeb stop you from learning docking?

After a while you actually get a "extra sense" when it comes to that without using any mods like mechjeb or kerbal engineer.

And with some design those mods might even cause problems and show the wrong thrust to weight ratio causing more issues than the help they provide.

It might be hard for you to understand, but after a while you just automatically KNOW. I have had so many missions now where I just brought just enough fuel to get the mission done and that was without using a single mod like that.

And this is why I dont use such mods since it stops you from actually learning from trial and failure.

[helaeon]

My way of playing has been... do like NASA to learn. Learn what they did and do that. Then surpass them because I don't have to deal with so much they do.

When I first started playing I did the Mercury Program, then Gemini, and Apollo. My first Duna mission was a Viking style lander. That way I was taking significant but small steps along the way. Testing each major failure point alone.

Another thing I learned was design your mission backwards. Start with the return from Duna, then figure out your landing profile (direct ascent or rendezvous, inside transfer window or outside), then figure out how you get that package from Kerbin to Duna, then figure out how to get that package to LKO (orbital assembly is an option here too). Use kerbal engineer and look up the delta-Vs involved that will help a lot.

Right now when I design a mission I do the lander first, partly because I like making landers the most. Then I come up with a transfer craft / mothership to push it and support the number of landings I want. Then I figure out how to put it all in space.

This time I launched my transfer craft uncrewed with no lander, then flew up the lander and crew in a SSTO. I've done it a few times that the mothership will be so heavy to launch in one go I send up the lander and fuel in subsequent launches. All of that is totally okay. You're the mission planner, do what you need to do based on what you know how to do and your piloting skills.

Send probes if you don't want to send Kerbals. Put a probe core in your stack if testing the manned vessel! You can have as many cores as you want. As long as there is 1 in the vessel when it's undocked you can control it from anywhere. So your lander needs one, your transfer craft / mothership needs one. Then you can get an idea how it will perform without risking any green guys. Send a partial mission and do a fly-by if you're not comfortable with the circularziation and landing. The Mun is a great place to practice your lander piloting too. The chutes make it much easier when you land on the Duna vs the Mun (except it makes landing precisely much harder), but if you can land on the Mun then Duna isn't hard even without chutes.

Practice your interplanetary rendezvous with asteroids. There are a couple of mods that show you a porkchop plot, those make figuring out when it's time to go and how much fuel you'll need much easier. I have a feeling the underbuilt part of your rockets is probably inefficient transfers or trying to go at a bad time. Like not accounting for the inclination of Minmus and your transfer burn being away from the AN/DN, or having to match planes.

BTW Duna or Eve should be your first interplanetary target and DON'T attempt landing on EVE! Dres requires precision interecepts and is a long ride, Moho requires a ton of Delta-V for the transfer though the landing is easy, Jool is cool but long ride, and all of the moons are difficult to land on for their own reasons.

This is probably my 6th or 7th mission to Duna. I've done it a different way each time (last time involved landing a single science base module/lander on the surface with a little helicopter to go to the various biomes and collect science - that was a cool mission). Every time I go I'm happy I did even though it seemed like a pain and a little scary. Duna is really cool with lots of anomalies to find and is generally just a neat place to be.