Modded 64k Career game UPDATE Year2 Day36 (09/05/2017)

[CatastrophicFailure]

I see that solid did come in handy, after all.  

2 hours ago, Shania_L said:

 

This one positively screams "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECRAPCRAPCRAPHOTHOTHOTOWOWOW!!!!!!!"

2 hours ago, Shania_L said:

Touchdown just inland from the Northern Coastline in a SouthWestern region of the Allied Provinces of Cerimia.

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by CatastrophicFailure

[Shania_L]

20 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

I see that solid did come in handy, after all. 

Needed the SPAM, or found a use for it due to unfolding situation? I'll claim it was all part of the plan

Arguably if I had replaced the SPAM with an empty tube, the mass reduction would have given me more available dV in all the other stages so I may as well have been able to perform the same double landing anyway, but this way I got to do a solid motor ascent off the surface of Mun (with no smoke effects I might add).

Quote

This one positively screams "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECRAPCRAPCRAPHOTHOTHOTOWOWOW!!!!!!!"

Followed shortly after by not as many explosions as I would have liked, turns out the Mk2 parts I built the upper parts of the tank out of are remarkably heat resistent even blunt end first into airflow! ... but not so much resistant to ground impacts. Only the engine bell from the HDIII stage survived that re-entry, and even then only by using the entire rest of the structure as a crumple zone.

Quote

How did you know I have specially cross bred pirates and ninjas for just such recovery missions into hostile territory?

[GarrisonChisholm]

"Have no fear citizens of Kerbin ~6,000 litres of Aerozine/NTO will be dispersed across such a wide area you will hardly notice it!"

 

...I can't help but think that this language must have been borrowed from a certain Ussari Kommisar...

 

 

[CatastrophicFailure]

4 hours ago, Shania_L said:

How did you know I have specially cross bred pirates and ninjas for just such recovery missions into hostile territory?

Because, mhysa, such, you would have need of.

[Shania_L]

18 hours ago, GarrisonChisholm said:

...I can't help but think that this language must have been borrowed from a certain Ussari Kommisar...

Some say the Kraken was actually banished to Bop because it failed to produce the correct papers, all we know is that this isn't Comrade Political Officer, but he is Comrade Political Officers decadent Western cousin!

 

16 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Because, mhysa, such, you would have need of.

Mhysa? I really don't think I'm entitled to wear that title ... unless ofcourse you want hybrid Pirate/Ninjas riding Dragons ... but then we are just getting silly, and we don't do silly here...

 

 

 

honest!

[CatastrophicFailure]

On 9/7/2016 at 2:07 PM, Shania_L said:

unless ofcourse you want hybrid Pirate/Ninjas riding Dragons ... but then we are just getting silly, and we don't do silly here...

What about lasers, can they have lasers? Everything's better with lasers...

[Shania_L]

Today a report in two parts, because we have arrived at a momentus point in this career, the completion of the first Kerbal year!

 

Day 422, KSC

Spoiler

 

It has been a long time since the early days of the space program and our early attempts to map the surface of planets. Recently the SCAN SAR module, a much more high resolution mapping method, has been developed to replace the RADAR scanner. Not only will this return maps of unprecedented detail, they are also in full colour!!

Three sister probes have been developed by the Helmdar orbital scanning division, Helmdar V-K, -Mu and -Mi. Two of them identical, the -Mu variety carrying a slightly different additional sensor package but very similar overall.

The probe itself consists of the SCAN SAR module and a gravimax sensor, to provide propulsion we have turned once more to the arcjet motor and its lightweight and compact Xenon fuel. The resulting probe masses in at under 900kg, yet packs over 4,000m/sec resulting in it being able to self ferry from LKO to Mun/Minmus and be able to position itself in the correct orbit once there.

Once again we have dug the old reliable (even though it is the only rocket ever to have a launch failure) SkyBolt V out of retirement, we have however slightly enlarged the upper stage and strapped on a pair of additional boosters, rather than call it a SkyBolt Vb (there is already an early and late design of the 'V') this becomes the SkyBolt VI.

Liftoff of the Helmdar V-K occurs just before sunset aiming for a polar orbit having the sun constantly in view for the entire orbit. (Heliocentric?)

The fully solid boosted primary stage burns out still well inside the atmosphere and the hypergolic upper stage ignites in the upper atmosphere to boost the Ap up to the desired 200km.

As with the SkyBolt V initial design the lifter itself is not technically a fully orbit capable craft, the payload is still required to complete circularisation, this does however negate the requirement for any de-orbit equipment. Helmdar V has plenty of dV to complete to a circular 197x204km orbit with 4,073m/sec remaining in its tank.

This large fuel capacity is utilised to boost Helmadar up to its operating altitude of 1,300x1,300km in an 88 degree inclination, also a small burn to rotate the orbit further exposing the large arrays to full solar energy for the entire orbit. 2,771m/sec remain once Helmdar settles into its routine, once the map has been completed Helmdar will boost into a higher orbit and sample the few remaining biomes with its Gravimax sensor from high orbit (>2Mm).

Mission cost 64,956 Funds, 0 recovery.

 

Also on this day

Spoiler

 

Whilst working on the orbital plot for Helmdar V we noticed a craft already in polar orbit, and it had been there for quite a long time. Apparently we had 'forgotten' or 'mislaid' the previous generation of scanning craft, Helmdar III has been dutifully circling the planet, biome and karbonite scanning the surface non-stop for the last 270 days. Deciding that we have probably found everything we are going to with this craft we command it to burn retrograde and retire in a glorious streak of fire across the skies of the south pole.

 

Day 424, KSC

Spoiler

 

2 Days after the previous launch, a second SkyBolt VI is rolled out to the launchpad. Weighing in at only 18 tonnes the manufacture, rollout and launchpad refurbishment hardly take any time at all.

The Helmdar V-Mi is a direct copy of the V-K carrying exactly the same sensors and fuel load, it is launched into a 6 degree North inclination as the KSC passes under Minmus' orbit path, fortunately for the PR dept this occurs during daylight.

With the benefit of Kerbins rotation added to its orbital velocity the upper stage actually manages to place Helmdar V-Mi into its 150km circular orbit with 40m/sec of fuel remaining, we had to jettison the upper stage early to ensure it remained sub-orbital as it carries no retro or probe core.

Helmdar V performs a minor (74m/sec) correction burn to fully match Minmus' inclination and then the 2,500m/sec (10+ minute) transfer burn for Minmus, which it will intercept in some 9Days. The most efficient transfer uses a whole 60m/sec less but takes 22Days to arrive. 1,975m/sec dV remain.

(Image actually of Helmdar V-K (its travelling North!))

This image shows the simple construction of the Helmdar V probe, which at ~800kg is little more than an arcjet propulsion system similar to that aboard the recent Lunic Mun landers, but with twice the Xenon capacity (1,400l). To keep the arcjet running requires a significant flow of Ec two large solar panels provide enough charge (6Ec/sec/panel) to run at full thrust indefinately and the largest battery ever fitted (2,800Ec) to a probe ensures it can perform sizable burns even in the shadow of a planet.

Mission cost 64,956 Funds, 0 recovery.

 

Day 425, KSC

Spoiler

 

Launch of the third and final Helmdar V probe, the -Mu. This one differs slightly from its two sisters in carrying additional scanning equipment, an orbital telescope and multi sensor, this results in it being a little heavier and havng slightly less dV but still more than enough.

Helmdar V-Mu being released from the SkyBolt VI upper stage prior to circularising into its 150km orbit, the additional sensors can clearly be seen.

A 10 minute, 2,270m/sec burn for Mun intercept in 3 days is followed by a 90m/sec correction burn a few hours later to put Helmdar onto a track for a Mun'r Pe of 30km over the North pole. 1,720m/sec remain.

With that the 118th and final launch of this first Kerbal year is complete!

Mission cost 60,765 Funds, 0 recovery.    (No expencive Gravimax scanner)

 

 

Part II, Day 426, End of year audit.

Launcher capability and usage through the year.

Launcher	Type	Capacity	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	Total
Ascender I	Balloon	1 Kerbal	1	0	0	0	1
Ascender II	Sub-Orbital	1,500kg	1	0	0	0	1
SkyBolt I	Sounding Rocket	100kg	2	0	0	0	2
SkyBolt II	Sounding Rocket	100kg	1	0	0	0	1
SkyBolt III	Sounding Rocket	200kg	1	0	0	0	1
SkyBolt IV	Sub-Orbital	1,500kg	1	0	0	0	1
SkyBolt V	Light Orbital	~600kg	6(+1)	2	0	0	8
SkyBolt VI	Light Orbital	~800kg	0	0	0	3	3
HoundDog Ia	Orbital	1,250kg	9	0	0	0	9
HoundDog Ib	Orbital	1,250kg	1	21	9	1	32
HoundDog Ic	Orbital Re-usable	~900kg	0	0	3	4	7
HoundDog II	Orbital	5,000kg	0	7	9	4	20
HoundDog III	Medium Orbital	10,000kg	0	0	15	10	25
HoundDog IV	Heavy Orbital	30,000kg	0	0	0	7	7
Total Launches			23	30	36	29	118

Despite HoundDog III becoming the workhorse of the last two quarters, the dominance put in place in Q2 by the HoundDog Ib has still yet to be overtaken.

With the introduction of the SkyBolt VI we have two lifters with essentially the same capacity putting direct competition between it and the HoundDog Ic, both lifters have come at the problem of a light orbital vehicle from opposite directions. SkyBolt VI has gone for cheap and easy construction with no recovery (Ariane VI) wheras HoundDog Ic has a much more expencive system yet recovers the large portion of it for re-use (Falcon 9).
HoundDog is probably the cheaper solution, however with the recovery glitches I get in game and the added effort of actually flying the recovery I am more likely to use SkyBolt when I actually need a cheap launch.

Rather than go through all the active craft like I did in the previous quarter (I have 57 atm not including debris or de-commissioned craft) I will put a summary of my Kerbals and their exploits.

Crew Roster

Name	Specialisation	Rank	Current Location	Flights	Days Off Planet	Visited Locations
Jebediah	Pilot	Rookie	Iakod (Probably the beach he hasnt been doing an awful lot lately)	2	0	Kerbin
Sigbert	Pilot	Fifth Rate	KSC	5	9.5	Mun Landing
Elory	Pilot	Fifth Rate	KSC	4	11	Mun Landing
Nelsy	Scientist	Fourth Rate	KSC	1	32	Minmus Landing
Jedke	Scientist	Fifth Rate	KSC	3	63	Moros Landing
Orgun	Engineer	Fifth Rate	KSC	2	62	Moros Landing
Billy-Bobdo	Scientist	Fifth Rate	KSC	2	62	Moros Landing
Podly	Scientist	Fifth Rate	Pandora LKO	3	25.5 (+99 so far)	Minmus Orbital
Aling	Engineer	Rookie	Pandora Mun	1	0 (+114 so far)	Mun Landing
Lemlie	Scientist	Rookie	Pandora Mun	1	0 (+114 so far)	Mun Landing
Dersey	Scientist	Rookie	Pandora Mun	1	0 (+114 so far)	Mun Landing
Bartlorf	Scientist	Rookie	Pandora Mun	1	0 (+114 so far)	Mun Orbital

Looking at these figures I really had thought at least one of them had been to two destinations, looks like I shared out the honours better than I thought! also though, its probably about time I did a crew rotation on the stations, 4 rookies with no flight experience running Pandora Mun? oops!
Another oddball is Podly, having been my very first test subject back on day 1 in the Ascender I balloon flights, he has racked up the highest time off planet without actually managing to set foot on any other planets.

General stats

525,773 Funds in the account with 444 Science.

2x 550 point research nodes and 3x 1,000 point nodes yet to research.

Loki I has finished construction and is awaiting launch approval.
Loki II, Lilith Ib and lab expansions for Pandora and Pandora Mun are in construction.
Design work is in progress for additional station components, more dependable crew transports for Mun/Minmus as well as some more advanced high efficiency propulsion systems if we can only solve the massive Ec requirements.

Heres to another year!

Edited October 5, 2016 by Shania_L

[CSE]

11 hours ago, Shania_L said:

With that the 118th and final launch of this first Kerbal year is complete!

Congratulations! Thanks for keeping it up, it continues to be a great read.

[Shania_L]

With the release of version 1.2 I have been reminded again just how many versions I am behind and how many cool features I am missing out on. I have decided on a (rather optimistic) endpoint for this career game, the day I return a crewed expedition from Duna. To this target I have done a little research into what it would require.

How long would a Duna mission last? taking the next available transfer (not efficient but "rapid" transfers);

Year 2 day 111 depart Kerbin, 250 day transfer, arrive Year 2 day 361.
Next available return is not until Year 6 day 113, 250 day transfer arriving Kerbin year 6 day 363.

This works out at a 4.5 year mission, or 1,956 days.

1 day of Lifesupport weighs 4kg, a Duna missions worth of lifesupport for a 4 kerbal crew weighs 32 tonnes.

10,000m/sec dV is required to get from LKO to LDO, 5,000 to return. I am not sure of Duna ascent/decent dV requirements atm.

The drive section for a "quick and dirty" duna transfer vehicle weighed 450 tonnes ... in orbit.

More (and better) plans are required.

Year 2 Day 2, (or Day 428) KSC

Launch of the first of the two Loki craft I have been battling with, these craft represent another first for the KSP, surface exploration. The Loki division is tasked with producing landers capable of moving across the surface of alien worlds ... rovers, I thought the division name appropriate given the troublesome nature of rovers.
As is my way with these things there are probably far simpler methods for performing this mission, the two designs used here represent more of an experiment into methods of packing rovers into/onto landers.

Loki I is tasked with exploring a set of co-ordinates on the Mun provided by private enterprise. Launched atop a HoundDog IV the overly complex transfer and landing system is put into a 157x175km orbit.

I will probably put a design/build description out for this vehicle in the next post because it is something of a compromise / conglomerate mission. The second lander on the nose has nothing at all to do with the Loki I mission other than using it to get to the Mun. Orbit achieved with 326dV in the upper stage, this was used to start the 2,263m/sec transfer burn to Mun. The Coxwain powered KeroLox transfer stage completes the burn after 6.5minutes and then performs a minor 30m/sec plane change a few hours later.

Mission cost 326,943 Funds - 2x 17,982 recovered from boosters.

Whilst Loki is transfering to the Mun, Helmdar V-Mu has arrived at its capture point 30km over Muns North pole. 500m/sec later and we have a 30x1,300km orbit.

(Incase you were wondering, the SAR antenna is mounted on a 90 degree (IR) rotating joint, so that it did not block the view of the orbital telescope, yet folds away aligned with the body for fitting into the fairing.) A little bit of RP that nearly turned out terrible as it attempted to summon the Kraken during rotation, but thankfully settled down once it reached its final position.

182dV circularisation burn into a 1,300km orbit at ~88 degrees, SAR scanning initiated, remaining 1,040m/sec will be used after map is complete to drop back to low orbit to use its other instruments.

Y2D4, Mun Orbit

Loki I arrival at Mun, 700m/sec capture into a 20 degree inclined 32x32km orbit, incline ensures we overfly the targets latitude.

This is where Loki once again lives up to its name, the intended landing zone is in darkness, the main lander has sufficient battery and landing lights to compensate for this ... The second lander, added at the last minute as ballest ... has no battery at all other than the 2 (yes 2) Ec capacity of its probe core rendering it incapable of operating in anything but direct sunlight for more than 5 seconds. So we will have to loiter in orbit until the landing zone emerges from the Mun'r night.

Y2D5, KSC

There is an old wives tale which warns of the perils of housing rodents and fish in experimental orbital facilities, but apparently the severity of this was not enough to disuade certain corporations from putting up large sums of money to see what would happen if you tried. Enter the Pandora Zoology Laboratory, once paired up with a canister of furry 'volenteers' (sold seperately) this state of the art facility can answer all those important questions you never even knew you wanted to know the answer to.

Launched atop another HoundDog IV which makes short work of the ascent to 160km circular orbit, the Zoology Lab is a very annoying weight where at 12t, even with all the extras fitted, it is too heavy for a HDIII but too light for HDIV.

The 123 and 150m/sec burns to raise Ap and match velocity with Pandora hardly dent the dV remaining in the upper stage leaving it plenty to de-orbit with once the Lab was securely docked to Pandoras new senior docking port.

Podly makes a brief EVA to secure a pair of KAS struts across the connection and to relocate the RCS units from the Zoology Lab onto its support frame so they can be disposed of.

Firing the solid motors of the support frame carrying the probe core, batteries and antenna required for controlling the lab on its ascent but which would just waste part count once docked.

Sporting the larger style illuminators the Zoology Lab makes the most of its colour scheme, Pandora really does stand out quite well in the dark.

Mission cost 230,936 Funds, 2x 17,982 recovered from boosters.

[CatastrophicFailure]

3 hours ago, Shania_L said:

With the release of version 1.2 I have been reminded again just how many versions I am behind and how many cool features I am missing out on. I have decided on a (rather optimistic) endpoint for this career game, the day I return a crewed expedition from Duna. To this target I have done a little research into what it would require.

How long would a Duna mission last? taking the next available transfer (not efficient but "rapid" transfers);

Year 2 day 111 depart Kerbin, 250 day transfer, arrive Year 2 day 361.
Next available return is not until Year 6 day 113, 250 day transfer arriving Kerbin year 6 day 363.

This works out at a 4.5 year mission, or 1,956 days.

1 day of Lifesupport weighs 4kg, a Duna missions worth of lifesupport for a 4 kerbal crew weighs 32 tonnes.

10,000m/sec dV is required to get from LKO to LDO, 5,000 to return. I am not sure of Duna ascent/decent dV requirements atm.

The drive section for a "quick and dirty" duna transfer vehicle weighed 450 tonnes ... in orbit.

More (and better) plans are required.

 

Ah, I know exactly how you feel.  

Do you have any options for regenerative life support to lighten the load? ISRU plant on Ike, maybe?

[UnusualAttitude]

Hi there Shania. I've been enjoying this series for a while, and I would love to see a crewed mission to Duna in 64k.

10 hours ago, Shania_L said:

10,000m/sec dV is required to get from LKO to LDO, 5,000 to return. I am not sure of Duna ascent/decent dV requirements atm.

But wow, that sounds like a lot. This is far more than it took me to get to Mars in RSS. I'm not familiar with 64k, but are you sure these are optimal transfers? 

Stating the obvious here, but would aerocapture and/or braking at Duna help with the delta-v budget? Again, I don't know about 64k, but this definitely saved me a lot of fuel at Mars. 

[Shania_L]

14 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Ah, I know exactly how you feel.  

Do you have any options for regenerative life support to lighten the load? ISRU plant on Ike, maybe?

Yes there are options along these lines, I have a greenhouse module tweaked to work with my lifesupport mod which depending how exactly I set the figures it could end up being almost fully self sufficient. I use the "Interstellar Lifesupport" mod, which is a single resource simulation, so the greenhouse literally turns Ec into lifesupport.

As for fuel, I will definately be using ISRU, the 260 tonnes transfer vehicle was a triple nerv powered by methane, it had enough dV for the LKO to LDO transfer and nothing more, refuelling is a requirement. I have Karbonite installed and limited ability to produce certain RealFuels from it ... mostly H2 and O2, but I'm pretty sure I can conjour up a Dunain atmosphere version which will produce Methane for me.
 

Spoiler

 

I dont have a pic of the 450 tonne version, but this here is 260tonnes and is literally a crew transfer ship, no lander, no surface modules, 4 hitchhikers, a stock lab, a cupola and 2 greenhouses. It can be launched in 4 parts (3x HDIII or IV and a single HDV for the drive section as it requires a 5m fairing) but quite a few refuelling visits. Pretty background courtesy of KCT simulation.

 

Ohh wait, you said on IKE? umm to the best of my knowledge Ike is a very Mun-a-like body so it may have water ice, but not the ingredients for producing a hydrocarbon fuel. Lower dV ascent/decent would be very useful, but if I have to build a hydrogen powered ship to utilise that then am I gaining anything?

8 hours ago, UnusualAttitude said:

Hi there Shania. I've been enjoying this series for a while, and I would love to see a crewed mission to Duna in 64k.

But wow, that sounds like a lot. This is far more than it took me to get to Mars in RSS. I'm not familiar with 64k, but are you sure these are optimal transfers? 

Stating the obvious here, but would aerocapture and/or braking at Duna help with the delta-v budget? Again, I don't know about 64k, but this definitely saved me a lot of fuel at Mars. 

These are far from optimal transfers, these are minimal duration transfers. I was aiming to have the kerbals in deep space for the shortest time possible, efficient transfers can be done for less than half of these figures.
The main trouble being then though that I am extending the total mission duration even more, I would need to leave kerbin earlier (as in asap) and I wouldnt be returning until the same window anyway.

My 10,000 dV transfer takes 250 days, leaving on Y2 D111

A 5,080 dV window takes 503 days, but has to leave on Y2 D19 (ie in 13 days time, I cant build the ship by then)

I can leave at any time between the two and accept a slower/cheaper trajectory and still come home on the same fast path though.

Aerocapture would save some dV, however when you are arriving in such a heavy ship which most likely has been assembled in Kerbin orbit it may not be particularly wise to subject it to those kinds of stresses. Duna also doesnt have enough atmosphere to absorb some 5km/sec without having to dive to altitudes where mountains may lurk. So there are benefits, but relying on 100% propulsive capture is the safer option.

 

[UnusualAttitude]

25 minutes ago, Shania_L said:

These are far from optimal transfers, these are minimal duration transfers. I was aiming to have the kerbals in deep space for the shortest time possible, efficient transfers can be done for less than half of these figures.

Ah, OK. So this is a self-imposed requirement. Is this due to solar radiation? One could imagine that your 32 tonnes of life support could be crafted into a pretty efficient radiation shelter...

29 minutes ago, Shania_L said:

Aerocapture would save some dV, however when you are arriving in such a heavy ship which most likely has been assembled in Kerbin orbit it may not be particularly wise to subject it to those kinds of stresses. Duna also doesnt have enough atmosphere to absorb some 5km/sec without having to dive to altitudes where mountains may lurk. So there are benefits, but relying on 100% propulsive capture is the safer option.

A direct aerocapture from a high-energy transfer would certainly be risky. Powered capture to an elliptical orbit followed by gradual aerobraking in the upper atmosphere to circularise offers the best of both worlds.

Good luck, however you decide to go about this. 

[Shania_L]

On 05/10/2016 at 9:01 PM, UnusualAttitude said:

Ah, OK. So this is a self-imposed requirement. Is this due to solar radiation? One could imagine that your 32 tonnes of life support could be crafted into a pretty efficient radiation shelter...

Self imposed in that I had chosen to fly fast rather than efficient, but not really for radiation reasons. I was trying to shorten the total trip time and a faster outbound journey gave me a potential "touch and go" mission profile. I have since decided that this is probably not worth doing so I may well lengthen the duration of the outbound journey, the only issue with this is that cheaper/slower journeys have to leave earlier and I'm already on the clock now!

On 05/10/2016 at 9:01 PM, UnusualAttitude said:

A direct aerocapture from a high-energy transfer would certainly be risky. Powered capture to an elliptical orbit followed by gradual aerobraking in the upper atmosphere to circularise offers the best of both worlds.

Depending on ship geometry, I may be able to use aerocapture/breaking to some greater or lesser degree. I would consider it as an oppertunistic bonus rather than planning it into the mission though. I haven't got the most experiance with atmospheric interactions beyond Kerbin (and you can see how inaccurate my re-entries are even there!) I really dont know what to expect from the Dunan atmosphere so I cannot rely on it for mission critical purposes.

[Shania_L]

Todays report comes once again from the VAB technical office, the slide rules and simulators have been very busy over the last week (or so) so lets see what they have in store.

Year2 Day6, KSC

Requirements for a crewed Duna mission.

Transport for crew to and from Duna.
Although there are no official restrictions against it, HR has deemed that the ship should have at least triple the crew capacity as the number of Kerbanauts on the journey.
The science division has requested facilities to perform experiments in Kerbol orbit en-route requiring a laboratory to be included on the crewed vessel.
The ship should be able to return the crew to Kerbin in the case of serious accident, failing this it should be able to support them until a rescue ship can arrive.
The ship should be modular and capable of being assembled in orbit by launchers at our current technology level, ideally with the launchers we have, although consessions can be made for good reasoning.

Crew Ascent / Decent to Duna surface.

A vessel capable of transporting the entire crew to the surface of Duna from Duna orbit, and transporting the crew from Duna orbit to Ike landing and back.
Capable of supporting the crew for extended periods on the surface, with provision for 'biome hopping'.
Ideally non-nuclear, making our first footfall on an alien world into a radioactive crater is not what we had in mind.

Duna/Ike exploration.

The widest possible array of science instruments must be carried to be operated in as many environments as possible for maximum science returns.

Should be easy then ....

Ohh and we have 100 days before the launch window closes to the point where dV requirements become, excessive.

The earlier the mission leaves, the lower the dV requirements, but also the slower the transit.
Leaving on Y2 D19 costs ~5KdV and takes 500 days
Leaving on Y2 D111 costs ~9.6KdV and takes 250 days, even later and more expencive transits are also possible.

The mission plan.

A multi ship mission is the best solution, a single 'mothership' design would take longer to design, build and assemble. The scaling effects would make the thrust and fuel costs soar (as well as lag issues).

The crewed vessel will be a single ship, named Charon, it will be larger than anything we have ever assembled, 30 tonnes of crew modules and laboratories will be propelled by 3 high performance Nuclear Thermal Rockets fuelled by ~250 tonnes of Liquified Methane.
This ship will be assembled in 6 parts, 5 of these can be lifted by HoundDog III or IV.
Core section, crew hab+greenhouse, crew ascent/decent vehicle, surface module+rover, additional stores or lander.
The final part however is the drive section and in addition to exceeding the 30tonne lift capacity is also 6m in diameter, requiring a new lifter.

HoundDog V

Its still a work in progress.

At 750,000 funds per launch I am glad that was a simulation, a single launch failure like that in reality would scupper the entire mission. Despite our focus on the Duna mission we cannot lose out on our other commitments, notably those which result in cash flow as currently we cannot even afford to build the Duna ships.

Charon, despite its size only carries sufficient fuel for the outbound transit (assuming a last minute departure on day 111), this means additional stocks of methane will have to be sourced at Duna. To comply with the 4th requirement Charon carries greenhouses capable of sustaining the 6 man crew almost indefinately, assuming a rescue is nessisary.

In addition to the crew vessel, 2 (or possibly 3) support ships will be sent these will transport the ISRU equipment required to harvest methane and get it into orbit to refuel Charon. (Also anything else I want to take but havent thought of yet)

These support ships take the form of Medea III cargo haulers, these will haul the Cerbarus I ISRU lander from LKO to LDO where the Medeas will then become tankers from Duna surface to LDO.

Issues

Assembling the vessels shouldnt be too much of a problem provided we can get Funds for them, they all fit within standard fairing sizes (the ones we have designed so far anyway)

Very little is known of Duna, its atmosphere or environment. The Lunic and Verity craft sent earlier this year are on very slow transfers and are yet to arrive, they may not arrive until this misson is already well on its way. Selecting a landing site with safe slopes and sufficient resources may be problematic with no maps or scans of the planet.

Fuelling vessels in orbit. This could be a problem, Charon requires 250 tonnes of Methane, each Medea requires approx 80 tonnes of Methane/Liquid Oxygen mix and there are currently 2 if not 3 of them. That is 410 tonnes of fuel, or 14 HDIV launches assuming nothing but fuel aboard. 14x HDIVs would cost around 4.2 million Funds.

Is it worth assembling an extra Cerbarus and utilising Minmus to refuel the ships?

Benefits, fewer launches, cheaper mission in total, practical demonstration of ISRU feasibility.
Costs, complexity, increased duration of transfers to/from Minmus.

 

Sorry for the wall of text this week guys, but I have been mostly tweaking designs in the VAB or trying to work out how to actually do this mission. I have some standard missions lined up, notably Loki still Idling in Mun orbit and Loki II awaiting launch, there is also a science payload for Pandora to utilise the new Zoology lab, each of these will result in payouts I require for Duna to proceed. I just dont want to burn through very many days when I know time will be tight for assembling this mission before the deadline.

I also have to put out a thanks to @UnusualAttitude and @Starman4308 for assists in config editing for Duna ISRU and a MethaLox engine for the Medea and crew landers.

[CatastrophicFailure]

3 hours ago, Shania_L said:

The crewed vessel will be a single ship, named Charon

You simply must call one of the other ships Ozzy. 

3 hours ago, Shania_L said:

Leaving on Y2 D19 costs ~5KdV and takes 500 days
Leaving on Y2 D111 costs ~9.6KdV and takes 250 days, even later and more expencive transits are also possible.

Those are some pretty serious numbers right there. I struggled to reach that even with nukes, and pushing alot less mass. Dying to see how you pull this one off.

[Shania_L]

14 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

You simply must call one of the other ships Ozzy. 

o\ Not that Sharon! There are certain mental images I do not need to be distracted by whilst docking!!

All, well most, of my ships names have a common theme spoofing real vessels. Wheras real spacecraft often take their names from mythalogical heros or gods, apollo, atlas, centaur, pegasus etc my ships are named after mythalogical villans or evils. Medusa, Medea, Lilith, (I launched the early Centus probes before I thought of this theme so missed out on naming my comn sats Psiron)

Charon is the ferryman who transports the deceased from the 'real' world across the river Styx into the underworld, Cerberus is Hades' dog who guards the gates to ensure noone leaves and only the dead enter.

14 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Those are some pretty serious numbers right there. I struggled to reach that even with nukes, and pushing alot less mass. Dying to see how you pull this one off.

Charon is very similar to the vessel I posted an image of a few posts back, triple methane nerv, 10x 14,000 litre near future structural tanks. It can perform a 5,000dV burn in only 28 minutes!!

Edited October 17, 2016 by Shania_L

[CatastrophicFailure]

29 minutes ago, Shania_L said:

Charon is the ferryman who transports the deceased from the 'real' world across the river Styx into the underworld, Cerberus is Hades' dog who guards the gates to ensure noone leaves and only the dead enter.

Hmm... how bout Bacchus for the tankers, then? 

31 minutes ago, Shania_L said:

Charon is very similar to the vessel I posted an image of a few posts back, triple methane nerv, 10x 14,000 litre near future structural tanks. It can perform a 5,000dV burn in only 28 minutes!!

Why so many tanks (vs a single large procedural)? Are you going to split the node? That's a long ejection burn, very lossy to do in one go. 

[Shania_L]

3 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Hmm... how bout Bacchus for the tankers, then? 

Why so many tanks (vs a single large procedural)? Are you going to split the node? That's a long ejection burn, very lossy to do in one go. 

Bacchus, god of wine and agriculture, well he has the evil going for him ....

Yes the node will be split, If I end up doing the Minmus refuelling option, and if Minmus is in the right place when I come to launch I can do a dive to Kerbin and cut the best part of 2kdV out of the burn. Otherwise Ill have to do a 2k and then 3k burn.

Procedural tank is probably lighter, more rigid and a lower parts count, but I think the structural tanks look better. Charon isnt really pushing parts count actually .. unlike Cerberus miner. So I have gone against all my normal instincts and placed style before substance

This is the equivilent procedural cryogenic tank to have the same volume and diameter as Charon. With a Jeb for scale, I just think it looks a bit .. plain.

[CatastrophicFailure]

12 minutes ago, Shania_L said:

Bacchus, god of wine and agriculture, well he has the evil going for him ....

This is the equivilent procedural cryogenic tank to have the same volume and diameter as Charon. With a Jeb for scale, I just think it looks a bit .. plain.

Nah, just paint a jack o lantern face on it or maybe call it the Great Pumpkin, perfect season, even!

[UnusualAttitude]

23 hours ago, Shania_L said:

Its still a work in progress.

And I see that initial simulations are proving to be... instructive.

23 hours ago, Shania_L said:

Is it worth assembling an extra Cerbarus and utilising Minmus to refuel the ships?

If it avoids you having to lift at least some of those 410 tonnes of fuel to LEO, then not doing so would be heresy. It would also be a chance to test your ISRU process. Not a bad idea, seeing your crew is going to rely on it to return from Duna. 

(I totally forgot about Minmus. I'm jealous. If Earth had a low gravity moon on the edge of its gravity well, I would be abusing the hell out of it. I'm now making plans for my Kerbals to go and get one, there's no reason why we shouldn't have one too...)

[Shania_L]

17 hours ago, UnusualAttitude said:

And I see that initial simulations are proving to be... instructive.

Today we learned that 650tonne rockets do not like to backflip through the soundbarrier ... who knew?

17 hours ago, UnusualAttitude said:

(I totally forgot about Minmus. I'm jealous. If Earth had a low gravity moon on the edge of its gravity well, I would be abusing the hell out of it. I'm now making plans for my Kerbals to go and get one, there's no reason why we shouldn't have one too...)

I think the reason your Earth doesn't have a Minmus is due to the R in RSS ....

[CatastrophicFailure]

11 hours ago, Shania_L said:

I think the reason your Earth doesn't have a Minmus is due to the R in RSS ....

Yes, the best we can do for a second moon is a flaky S-IVB stage that comes around every couple of decades before wandering off again. 

[Starman4308]

So, if it helps, extended the ISRU configs to include stock ISRU stuff: I'm not 100% sure I'm happy with it relative to the Karbonite stuff; it produces significantly less for the vastly heavier stock ISRU converters, and I haven't figured out how to configure the drills so that engineers don't magically multiply output by 25x. A small increase might be reasonable; 25x is absurd.

I might try to rebalance it in the future; I just wanted something working for a contract which asked for 1050 ore from the Mun. At that point, I kinda figured "if I'm mining ore, I may as well generate the propellant to get it to orbit in situ".

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sm8nt0df10qbz86/StockISRU-RealFuels.cfg?dl=0

EDIT: In terms of your logs: still on page 5. Very impressed by your early Mun missions, though; I've always used heavier boosters for those, instead of using multiple lightweight launches, sending fully fueled crew capsules to meet fully fueled landers in orbit.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Starman4308

[UnusualAttitude]

4 hours ago, Starman4308 said:

I haven't figured out how to configure the drills so that engineers don't magically multiply output by 25x. A small increase might be reasonable; 25x is absurd.

One can get rid of the mechanic entirely by switching UseSpecialistBonus = true to false.