Potential Uses for Extra Science Points?

[NASAHireMe]

It should be obvious to all moderately experienced players that with the addition of biomes to all bodies, the value of Science points has plummeted. Actually, it was always pretty unnecessary; prior to Beta, you could still unlock the entire tech tree with Minmus and a few high-science contracts.

Funds are now the primary limiting factor. Fully upgrading the facilities costs $10M+ funds, which makes the game grind-y because the contracts system keeps handing me boring low-value contracts that aren't worth my time anymore. And unfortunately, the biggest-payoff contracts are the "Explore" contracts, but they don't appear if you've already been to a body's SOI, so I'm constantly refusing crappy contracts until I get one of the juicy "Explore" ones.

So in the meantime, I'm sitting on 10,000+ pts of Science with all the parts unlocked, and all the appropriate administration strategies to convert science into funds or rep. I actually managed to collect every single point of science in the game in 0.23, before the new biomes were introduced. But that's not really feasible now unless I want to be a hermit for the next month.

What should Squad do with the extra Science? Rebalance, new science reqs for parts unlocks, any other creative ideas? Sound off.

[monophonic]

I agree there is an overabundance of science points in 0.90. They are also an infinite resource as contracts give science as well, which does not match well with the finite science cost of the tech tree. Tech trees are pretty much by definition finite^*, so some other kind of science sink is needed. It is just very hard to come up with something that isn't just converting funds costs into science costs.

Science can be very much summed up as the process of producing new knowledge. Knowledge is reproduceable^** and education is reproducing existing knowledge by imprinting it in more minds, so Kerbal University wont work. At best it could cost science to upgrade, but it wouldn't fit the infinite sink requirement. Newspapers, magazines and other mass media on the other hand are always looking for new stories to sell. Depending on minor details you can give them your "science" and get back "money" or "reputation..." Which is already covered by the policies at the admin facility.

I have also thought about spending science to discover some of the planetary bodies in the system. This would still be a finite sink though. Unless this was extended to needing to spend science in order to be able to spot asteroids, and the numbers you spot being dependent on the amount of science you spend. Hmm... There may be potential there. Particularly if the asteroid creation mechanism is extended to stuff like comets and Kuiper belt objects. You would need to use only a small amount of science to spot near Kerbin asteroids, but literally astronomical amounts to spot Kuiper belt objects. Being procedurally generated, these would effectively produce the infinite sink mechanism I am after. Rewards from contracts that involve these objects should also scale with the inaccessibility of the body in question. Just imagine the challenge of landing a 5000 ton KBO from three times the distance of Eeloo at KSC!^***

^*Procedural tech notwithstanding, but doing that would be a world first to my knowledge.

^**Through methods such as storytelling, book writing, movie filming and forum posting.

^***Completing this contract should also unlock an achievement for being the most unboreable person ever.

[Kelderek]

And unfortunately, the biggest-payoff contracts are the "Explore" contracts, but they don't appear if you've already been to a body's SOI, so I'm constantly refusing crappy contracts until I get one of the juicy "Explore" ones.

Huh? The explore contracts come nowhere close to the amount of funds you can get from surface and orbital station contracts. These range between 1.5M to 4.0M funds in my game (custom variation on normal difficulty). The "Explore" contracts seem to be tied to your reputation and perhaps also to what places you've already been to. I've found it possible to systematically go to every body in the Kerbol system one at a time and having the necessary explore mission for it as well as a lucrative surface station contract to pay all my travel expenses.

I do agree though that science points need an overhaul.

[Starhawk]

Perhaps on option could exist to spend science points on 'General Research' which would result in overall improvements to the performance of parts you already have.

[Rizzee]

There should be a science cost to upgrading buildings, maybe not all of them, but definetly the R&D and Tracking Station. Agreed that more science sinks would be nice.

[worir4]

How about you use science to keep the tracking station working. A constant supply is needed to discover asteroids.

[Renegrade]

Huh? The explore contracts come nowhere close to the amount of funds you can get from surface and orbital station contracts. These range between 1.5M to 4.0M funds in my game (custom variation on normal difficulty).

Agreed; even on the stock Hard setting, landing a research-surface-base on Minmus can net an enormous amount of funds... plus, the orbital contracts are basically the same sort of thing I'd send to a multi-biome planet anyways, so.. savings!

[merendel]

Perhaps on option could exist to spend science points on 'General Research' which would result in overall improvements to the performance of parts you already have.

I could see this working although as categories instead of general research. You could spend points on "Engine research" and get a boost to ISP or thrust to mimic improved tech. Can be purchased multiple times but with diminishing returns, each is more expensive for smaller gains. You could research "Material Science" for dry mass reductions of parts. Possibly a category that increases impact tolerance. Can split categories down further, each one able to be bought as much as you like but all having a diminishing returns curve. Its less nonsensical than kerbal skills changing part performance that was talked about before it was droped.

[Aragosnat]

Yeah. Either the local system for Kerbin needs to have their points nerfed and or the contracts should never give science points. Another way they could do it is have it like a one time use when converting science points to funds or rep. Which would give less the the current one. But, would deplete your science points down to 0. This would be very useful earily on as we can sometimes end up with a large stockpile of science points with nothing to spend them on due to the R&D costing so much to upgrade.

Edit: Also when using it. The science points would drop to 0. Another way would be to let us get into the negitives for science and funds. As the starting cost for science to rep or funds is a bit excesive at the defualt level. Since most of the points we gain is a dink amount and would not help with our ever needing of moar funds anyways. But, should be optional kind of like with how we can fine tune our starts.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Aragosnat

[SorryDave]

I collect science points for fun. The later technology on the tree is not required to complete contracts or make money.

I think that the tech tree should require only funds and the science points should only be used as a score or just for fluff.

The human race has developed some of the later technology, and never sent a person beyond the earths SOI.

[problemecium]

Once I had the tree cleared and enough Science to afford it, I activated the Science to Funds strategy at 100%. I had no plans to install any more part mods that would need unlocking, so the Science would at least do me some good earning me a little extra kash.

[Starhawk]

You could spend points on "Engine research" and get a boost to ISP or thrust to mimic improved tech. Can be purchased multiple times but with diminishing returns, each is more expensive for smaller gains. You could research "Material Science" for dry mass reductions of parts.

This is an excellent idea! There is a lot of scope for some game mechanic like this so that science doesn't suddenly become useless. I hope we see something like this or something that will accomplish the same goal when the next update shows up.

[timsfitz]

Yeah I like the idea of expensive upgrades to engines and parts that require both science and money. Obviously, more total parts and more advanced stuff should also be added to the tech tree.

[FlowerChild]

You can build a bridge out of them...

[NASAHireMe]

I really, really like the idea of upgrading parts with science. Nuclear would start at 390 ISP and gradually get upgraded to 800, for example.

What about some way to synthesize science? Like taking a Mystery Goo from Eve and mixing it with a Materials Study from Tylo --> some new science experiment. I guess that doesn't necessarily burn the extra science points, but it'd be a way to encourage players to do science outside of the Kerbin system.

[Renegrade]

Regarding the 'upgrades for engines' bit, I've always wanted for nodes on the tree to unlock better stats for existing parts (not necessary ones that are already in orbit and such, but new instances launched from KSC after the upgrade).

RealFuels has that - I'd like something similar, only your engines would start out completely miserable and slowly advance to being good engines over time...and likewise for other parts (capsules could get stronger and lighter, and have better features).

(also some other mods have similar concepts like the T15, or Procedural Fairings' max and min sizes expanding when you buy nodes with unlocks in 'em)

One other issue is that the science that comes in increases a lot faster than the cost of the nodes. Once you hit Jool, it just POURS in with insane, reckless abandon. The higher nodes need to reflect that.

You can build a bridge out of them...

[Musil]

Interstellar mod had a thing where you needed to expend science points to upgrade some parts. I think that's a good mechanic: spend science points and get a LV-N with extra thrust, or something.

- - - Updated - - -

On second though... What could we do with progressively better parts? What will you do with an engine that has the ISP of a LV-N and the thrust of a Mainsail? The tech tree can grow until you get such and engine, or you could upgrade it spending science points, but wouldn't that be game breaking? The game would need either harder and harder places to get at («Let's land on Jool! Yey!»), or the tech tree would have to grow sideways, not up: more utility parts, more hab modules, such things, not engines.

[Lukaszenko]

On second though... What could we do with progressively better parts? What will you do with an engine that has the ISP of a LV-N and the thrust of a Mainsail? The tech tree can grow until you get such and engine, or you could upgrade it spending science points, but wouldn't that be game breaking? The game would need either harder and harder places to get at («Let's land on Jool! Yey!»), or the tech tree would have to grow sideways, not up: more utility parts, more hab modules, such things, not engines.

I think I'd like the performance/ weight of parts to be capped at their sandbox values, but to start out at much lower, perhaps even uselessly so, values. Science would "grow" the parts to their nominal values.

[tater]

Converting "currency" is what the strategies are for. There is already one that converts science to funds.

[Musil]

I think I'd like the performance/ weight of parts to be capped at their sandbox values, but to start out at much lower, perhaps even uselessly so, values. Science would "grow" the parts to their nominal values.

That would make the first part of any career (and that's the part you play the most) very grindy.

[cantab]

At the moment Science>Funds or Science>Rep. The former one feels really rubbish to me, but if you've got no use for the science points anyway it could be worthwhile.

Remember, a lot of these issues should be fixed in the rebalance. We can definitely expect all costs and revenues to change. As for stuff beyond that, I'd like to see diminishing returns - first Mun biome gets lots of science, later ones get much less - to encourage exploration. I also think it would be useful to have strategies that affect the amount of sciece/rep/funds you have now, rather than just what you earn in future.

Ultimately though I think there should be a surfeit of science on normal difficulty to give the player freedom. Do you want to do a series of tried-and-tested Mun and Duna landings in the different biomes? Would you rather put space probes all over the system? Is ignoring the experiments and doing contracts your thing? For any one approach to give sufficient science, they must offer an excess in total.

[micha]

I like the idea of seeing Science Points as being the "High Score" of the game. Even to the point of once you get X amount of Science you've "won" (*)(**). After all, it's been announced that 1.0 will have "lose" conditions (run out of funds or rep), so what, if any, "win" conditions will there be?

That'd also mean making tough decisions on your strategies - do you convert funds to science to get the higher score, at the risk of bankrupting yourself, or do you skimp on unlocking certain tech nodes and make do with a subset of available parts, etc. etc.

* To avoid Rep becoming completely useless, maybe have to have X Science and Y Rep to "win".

** And it should, of course, be possible to continue playing afterwards. Perhaps people will set up a score-board to see the Science Point high scores (for stock / a given set of mods).

[Sufficient Anonymity]

You can build a bridge out of them...

But what if we want to convert them into cubes?

[Levelord]

I have a potentially fun solution where you can spend extra science points into temporary 'buffs' for your rockets. For example, spend 500 science to buff this engine's TWR/tank's fuel capacity/etc etc... for this launch only. That way there's an endless sink for the science to go into that has a use and gives it an inherent currency value.

[monophonic]

I have a potentially fun solution where you can spend extra science points into temporary 'buffs' for your rockets. For example, spend 500 science to buff this engine's TWR/tank's fuel capacity/etc etc... for this launch only. That way there's an endless sink for the science to go into that has a use and gives it an inherent currency value.

Hey I like this one! Have some rep.