Engineers will calculate delta-V?

[Scotius]

Meh. It's just another round of eternal struggle between two crowds - one demanding more control over things in the game (and more things to do in the game), and one demanding more "fun" from the game . No matter what devs will do - part of the community will be extatic, part will be indifferent, and the last part will throw a fit.

People, there is no such thing as "ideal" and "perfect" game Cool off, wait for more info, and don't start wars over a banana peel.

[Red Iron Crown]

Here's an interesting tidbit:

I thought it would be difficult for Squad to integrate KER because it is GPL with multiple contributors. However, the readme for KerbalEdu (which calculates dV, among other things) contains this line: "KerbalEdu uses some source code from Kerbal Engineer Redux with permission." So perhaps KER's fairly robust dV calculation code will be used for this.

KER's career mode integration seems like a good way to go about it. Always available in the VAB/SPH, only works in flight if there is an engineer on board or a part installed.

Edit: Also, this:

Edited February 10, 2015 by Red Iron Crown

[Umlüx]

so we will have native delta-v figures and smart A.S.S.

bye Mechjeb, you have served me well. but now its time to part

[yardpup01]

I wonder if the push for 1.0 (and therefore exposure to critics and reviewers) is making Squad reassess many of its long standing positions.

[Alshain]

Another pointless feature. Tying them to engineers is just stupid. I'll just keep using KER.

[insert obligatory Twitter/Reddit/whatever vs Official forums comment here]

[Norpo]

[insert obligatory Twitter/Reddit/whatever vs Official forums comment here]

It could be worse, they could be announcing these things on IRC chat so people can't cite their source with proof.

[Red Iron Crown]

Another pointless feature. Tying them to engineers is just stupid. I'll just keep using KER.

KER ties them to engineers in career mode, too. (Though you can use a part instead or turn that feature off altogether.)

[Alshain]

KER ties them to engineers in career mode, too. (Though you can use a part instead or turn that feature off altogether.)

Which I do, because that is stupid. I use partless mode. You don't need a special part to calculate dV. You don't need an engineer in the craft to calculated dV. What you need is a rocket scientist sitting in mission control saying "this is the Delta V".

Edited February 10, 2015 by Alshain

[Wjolcz]

If we have dV in VAB no matter if there's engineer onboard or not then I'm cool with that.

And think about how pilots calculate fuel IRL. But yeah, they are not engineers. Maybe they should give that skill to both but not the scientist?

EDIT: Of course computer could do the same thing (just like KER). Give the ability to probe cores too?

Edited February 10, 2015 by Veeltch

[regex]

I'm flabbergasted that people here are suggesting basic math is apparently so hard that Kerbals will require a specially-trained person or specialized part on board a spacecraft to subtract one number from another. Seriously, why would you need a Kerbal (or special part) on board a spacecraft to do this? It should be completely automatic and assumed that the people who designed the rocket would know how much it could change its velocity and would have provided a mechanism for the operators thereof to see how much is left. Ffs we have a damn "gas gauge", speedometer, altimeter, artificial horizon, the ability to track our trajectory, and even a ground distance radar at the start of career mode, and for some reason we need a specially-trained person to figure out how far the ship can go... Madness.

[Jovus]

Nah, see, Kerbals are like sea turtles (cf. green-ness) so they have pinpoint accuracy locators and speedometers in their heads.

But they haven't invented books, so their engineers have to re-derive the rocket equation from basic counting every single time they design something to go to space.

[Odielthen]

I'm flabbergasted that people here are suggesting basic math is apparently so hard that Kerbals will require a specially-trained person or specialized part on board a spacecraft to subtract one number from another. Seriously, why would you need a Kerbal (or special part) on board a spacecraft to do this? It should be completely automatic and assumed that the people who designed the rocket would know how much it could change its velocity and would have provided a mechanism for the operators thereof to see how much is left. Ffs we have a damn "gas gauge", speedometer, altimeter, artificial horizon, the ability to track our trajectory, and even a ground distance radar at the start of career mode, and for some reason we need a specially-trained person to figure out how far the ship can go... Madness.

I agree, we definitely should have to unlock things like the altimeter at the start of the game ;-)

On a serious note, this will save me a lot of time plugging numbers into my calculator if it is in the VAB. The fact that you can see the current mass of your ship within the VAB has been extremely useful for determining my dv. I'm actually engineering my ships now instead of eyeballing everything. This process is unfortunately quite tedious at the moment.

[klgraham1013]

Where's that dead horse so I can beat it again...and again...and again. Just remember, Squad loves their community!...on Reddit!

So, yeah, dv readouts. I'm not going to congratulate them for doing something they should have done when they added dv readouts to maneuvers. As far as it being tied to engineers. Well, it's a game mechanic.

[regex]

I agree, we definitely should have to unlock things like the altimeter at the start of the game ;-)

That actually wouldn't be insulting of my (or a Kerbal's) intelligence and would fit in with the ridiculous KSC "barn" theme.

[Yakuzi]

A dV readout in the VAB, maybe available after some upgrade, and a dV readout on-flight, only if there's an engineer with some experience aboard.

This way engineers play some important role other than repairing broken wheels

These were my thoughts as well. Alternatively I wouldn't mind the KER approach either, I'm on the fence on this one as long as a dV readout is implemented.

This would be getting less and less KSP-ish to me, I hope it would be a "toggleable" (lack of vocabulary) difficulty option.

Else, with this and the pilot's ability to point automatically, they would just need to add an automatic assembly building to make this whole game a cinematic.

Also, electric charge should be calculated by hand, i.e. calculate the time your RTGs have been running since take-off plus exposure-time and angle to the sun of your solar panels minus electricity used... Way too cinematic atm.

Edit: Also, this:

Edited February 10, 2015 by Yakuzi
linkzoids

[Wallygator]

Kerbal recruit: Hi I want to join the space program.

KSP Management: OK, you are an engineer.

Kerbal Recruit: Wha?? How, Why? I haven't received any training yet?

KSP Management: Don't worry you will figure it all out when you get back from where ever we are sending you.

Kerbal Recruit: Do I get any tools?

KSP Management: No.

Kerbal Recruit: How about a slide rule?

KSP Management: No.

Kerbal Recruit: But I can do basic math with a pencil and...

KSP Management: No. You are not allowed to do any math until you get back from where ever we send you. Now shut up and go sit in the astronaut complex.

Kerbal Recruit: Can I do something else?

KSP Management: NO! You are an engineer. FOREEEEEVERRRRRRR!

Kerbal Recruit: BUT I HAVENT BEEN TRAINED!!!!

KSP Management: What IS your problem? Why do you not understand!?!? You will be given magic spells. You do not need training.

Kerbal Recruit: (shuffles away, shaking head...) I blame myself...

EDIT: hey just trying to lighten the mood a bit... ;-)

Edited February 10, 2015 by Wallygator

[JimmyAgent007]

Personally my play style is to not really care about dV and just trial and error things. Thats fun for me. I got my first manned Duna lander to land and return in one shot just from guessing and not paying attention to launch windows. It seems that people are making assumptions and looking for things to be angry about. That being said, if this was a feature that WAS important to me, I do understand the confusion surrounding its implementation. Also the annoyance at it being posted elsewhere. I'm always in the wait and see camp before I form an opinion. Personally I get why dV should be doable on the ground by whoever passes for a PHD on Kerbin and sent up to the ship. On the other hand, it changes if you limit your engines and such so maybe if you change that mid flight the engineer works that out himself.

Not sure how accurate it is, but in the movie Apollo 13 they show the astronauts doing math and asking for mission control to check the work. So if that was true then there is a case where the people in space need the math skills themselves rather than rely on the ground for everything.

Final guess for me is that it should be in the VAB, maybe an engineer keeps it visible for the flight or changes it on the fly depending on throttle and limits. We do after all have procedural fairings despite the devs saying they never want procedural parts so a dV readout in the VAB shouldnt be too unrealistic. Either way lets see what the dev notes say.

[cantab]

I'm not going to congratulate them for doing something they should have done when they added dv readouts to maneuvers

They aren't really equivalent. Delta-v of a manoeuvre is fundamental to define that manoeuvre. It's the most straightforward number for the game to show relating to it. Delta-v of a ship on the other hand is a derived quantity, depending on the wet and dry masses, and the game does show those.

And delta-v of a rocket is *not* simple. One engine on one fuel tank is easy enough, but you start having things like different engine models active, parallel staging, Apollo style landers, and it gets complicated fast. That's why KER has been actively developed for so long, and justifies needing a trained engineer.

[Liowen]

As I cautioned against all those "Here's how Squad should do drilling for fuel" posts when Squad merely posted that there would be a way to do deep space refueling, I will continue to caution against freaking out and assuming they'll only let Engineers named Herman Kerman do it if he's seated in a Mk1 pod that's landed on Eeloo at least once since it launched.

The only thing I see consistent about Squad is that they tease vaguely and leave stuff open to interpretation. Which annoys the ELF out of me, but is no cause to jump to conclusions.

It's the forums that is what people do or they like to be overly critical, because we all know that they have made better games than Squad could.....right?

[Alshain]

Hold on, dV has not been confirmed, only something that rhymes with "schmelta vee"? Based on Maxmaps' previous "Project Veejayjay" announcement, this could mean anything... For instance an in situ resource "Smeltery", life support items called "Herbal Tea", or Jeb's second in command female "Helper Vee"...

Requiring an Engineer to make Herbal Tea makes more sense than requiring one to calculate Delta V.

[Liowen]

Requiring an Engineer to make Herbal Tea makes more sense than requiring one to calculate Delta V.

Maybe engineers can cure them of "orbital flea"?

[Red Iron Crown]

It's the forums that is what people do or they like to be overly critical, because we all know that they have made better games than Squad could.....right?

Being a game designer is not a prerequisite for useful criticism of a videogame. I don't have to be a chef to know when my steak is overdone.

[Wallygator]

Public Service Announcement: This game is under early access. Squad benefits from having us kick the tyres and give them critical feedback. This applied to not only the game itself but to any communications regarding it. You can love the game and pledge your undying love to it and Squad, but that should not prevent anyone else from doing their duty to provide constructive criticism of game mechanics and brand management.

And just because some people haven't coded a game doesn't mean they are clueless about what makes a game better.

I'm done with this this thread now, as it seems to be spiralling off into the aether. Hope Squad gets the points made earlier here and on Reddit. And hope they centralise primary comms through their own managed community site (the forum).

[cantab]

In fact, I'll give all the people who think any old Kerbal should be able to work out delta-V an exercise:

A one-stage core masses 10 tons wet, 3 tons dry, and has an engine delivering 100 kN of thrust with an Isp of 400 s.

Attached to it are two solid boosters, each massing 4 tons wet and 0.5 tons dry, each delivering 300 kN of thrust with an Isp of 250 s.

All three engines ignite at launch and run at full throttle. The boosters are decoupled immediately after burnout.

Calculate the delta-V of this rocket.

For extra credit, assume the pilot throttles the core engine back to 2/3rds throttle when the boosters have used up half their fuel. Work out the new delta-v in less time than it takes the boosters to deplete their remaining fuel.

[Alshain]

In fact, I'll give all the people who think any old Kerbal should be able to work out delta-V an exercise:

A one-stage core masses 10 tons wet, 3 tons dry, and has an engine delivering 100 kN of thrust with an Isp of 400 s.

Attached to it are two solid boosters, each massing 4 tons wet and 0.5 tons dry, each delivering 300 kN of thrust with an Isp of 250 s.

All three engines ignite at launch and run at full throttle. The boosters are decoupled immediately after burnout.

Calculate the delta-V of this rocket.

For extra credit, assume the pilot throttles the core engine back to 2/3rds throttle when the boosters have used up half their fuel. Work out the new delta-v in less time than it takes the boosters to deplete their remaining fuel.

Even better, I could write you a little computer program to do all that for you and you can run it on the command pod and/or mission control computers... oh wait, someone already did... it's called Kerbal Engineer.