More Compelling Experiments

[Pthigrivi]

So a big thing the devs and the community have been thinking about is how clicky science currently is, and in some ways how much easier science is to collect than funds are. Others have delved more carefully into the balance between individually collected science vs contract rewards, but I think the real issue is that experiments currently are just clicking a thing in a biome, and don’t resemble conducting real science. There’s nothing substantively different between running a gravoli experiment vs a temperature scan other than where they can be activated. My suggestion is that each experiment needs to be a real activity that is fun, challenging, rewarding, and in some way resembles the way a real study would work. Moreover, in addition to science payoffs, the data experiments collect should be useful in and of itself. More could be added and I’d love to hear others' suggestions, but here’s my best crack at it.

Mystery Goo Containment Unit – This could remain mostly unchanged and left early in the tech tree as an introduction to the concept of science and biomes. Activate it and if you’re in a new biome you receive a set science reward. Data is only 50% transmittable.

2HOT Thermometer – This is the next experiment to be unlocked and can be toggled on or off. While on, it collects and saves temperature data whenever it enters a new biome, (it stores whatever it collects indefinitely) but it consumes .1 e/s while activated. It does not collect data when outside of near-space of any body, but data is 75% transmittable. In addition to its science pay-out, re-entry and engine overheat would be visible in logged biomes.

PresMat Barometer – The third experiment to be unlocked, this essentially pays off based on how great a swath of an atmosphere it passes through while continually activated. Each atmospheric biome has a set load and the swath from the edge of the atmosphere to the surface represents %100 of it. An easy use will be running it during launch, but as the data is 90% transmittable its real benefit comes from drop-probes with batteries and an antenna. It draws .1 e/s while activated. Additionally, once an air column is observed, trajectories through it would accurately reflect drag if piloted by an adequately trained pilot (level 3 or so)

SC-9001 Science Jr – This will be in many ways the most important science module in the game. Instead of being functionally identical to the goo canister, the Materials Bay will have 5 slots to load materials either at launch or using a Science Lab operated by a level 3 scientist or higher. At the point of being unlocked there will be three KSC available materials – Distilled Water, Soil, and Nematodes, but others can be collected in the form of surface samples and atmospheric samples. Each surface or atmospheric sample yields 5 materials, and generally material values will correspond to how hard to reach they are. Once activated, the Materials bay will expose the samples it contains for 30 days, with each sample paying off based on its own multiplier as well as the multiplier of the biome it was exposed in. Once exposed those samples are dead and the Materials bay cannot be re-used unless reloaded by an adequately staffed Science Lab. This means that collecting and distributing samples becomes a real game mechanic, rather than just filing a checklist. The materials bay consumes no energy, but results can only be transmitted at 25%. This could be a great thing to run in orbital stations or bases. I would normally not be a fan of long-duration experiments, but I think the non-repeatability of it makes time-warping possible but not advantageous or broken in any way.

Sensor Array Computing Nose Cone – This experiment collects atmospheric samples, but must run at a roughly constant speed and altitude for 10 seconds to successfully collect a sample. It consumes .5 e/s while activated, shuts off automatically after 10 seconds, and can collect up to 5 samples. These samples, like surface samples, can be loaded into the Materials Bay for additional science payout. Results pay out only 25% on transmission.

GRAVMAX Negative Gravoli Detetector – This instrument like the 2HOT Thermometer is toggleable, but is now essentially the biome-mapping instrument. Best used in a polar orbit, it pays off based on how much surface area it maps. It could have a detection radius of 200km or so, be 90% transmittable, but consume .25 e/s while running for balance. Once recorded, the biomes would be a visible in map mode.

Double-C Seismic Accelerometer – This now becomes the impactor instrument. Placeable only by level 4 scientists, it burrows itself in the surface, detecting a range of 300km or so, and pays out based on the overlapping area between its sensor range and the impact area, which is determined by impactor inertia. In addition to large science payouts, this could detect the richness of resource deposits within range. (In this paradigm, the resource detector would tell you where resources are, but not how rich they are without a surface sample or impactor study.) The experiment requires no outside electricity, and its results are 90% transmittable.

The general idea is that each of these experiments would be harder to execute, but yield larger rewards, and require less grind and repetition. Also because the data collected would be invaluable to future missions, the entire practice of sending unmanned probes to do preliminary research would be a major part of exploration.

I’m sure there are other cool experiments that could be part of it, (high level scientists taking core samples, EM-scans, etc.) but I’m just starting here to upgrade what’s currently available.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Pthigrivi

[SaturnV]

An idea inspired by this thread: a logging instrument which records the results of other experiment parts.

It can plot a chart of data you recorded.

With it players get a flight profile of whatever they recorded: temperature, atmosphere density or gravity.

This means players can analysis the environment with stock tools, no need to check the wiki to find out the scale height of Kerbin.

Edited February 16, 2015 by SaturnV

[tntristan12]

I think the problem is that science experiments are not persistent. Now, by that I mean that when you conduct an experiment anywhere in the solar system, you can lug it around wherever you want, then take it home and collect the full science reward. Well, that is fine for certain things like soil samples, but completely breaks down for other experiments.

Take, for example, the science jr. parts bay. Say I take it into zero gravity and I observe its behavior. I like to imagine that my scientist kerbal up there has taken a note of what he has seen. That information may be transmitted for what it is worth, but that is it. If the scientist wanted a more in depth look at the bay, then under the current system they would have to fly it back down to Kerbin and have it looked at in the space center.

Do you see the problem yet?

Once I fly my parts bay down to Kerbin, it is no longer in zero gravity. How on Kerbin can I then yield more scientific value from that than I would have gotten by just transmitting the report of the experiment? The experiment was destroyed the second I applied acceleration!

So let's revise this system. Say that, instead of flying it to Kerbin, I lift a laboratory module into orbit and dock it with my science jr. Now when I analyze the experiment, I have a full suite of instruments I can observe it with. I can get more science analyzing it in the laboratory module than I could have gotten by transmitting my results as my scientist saw them.

In this example, the science jr. experiment has a hierarchy wherein the laboratory module is worth the most science, transmitting the data is worth less science, and returning the science bay is worth no science (unless I reconduct the experiment on Kerbin).

Other experiments should have hierarchies as well! For example, returning a soil sample would obviously yield the most science. Analyzing it in a laboratory module would be worth less, and transmitting the data would be worth little (but some) science.

Something like this would engage the player more, and require that they strategize to gain the most scientific value from their experiments versus just attaching a bunch of science modules onto a probe and ditching it back in the atmosphere to collect full science on each.

[cicatrix]

From the gaming standpoint I can understand why the science reward for experiments is higher when the results are brought back to Kerbin, but really, why temperature scans, or pressure, or gravity rewards should be reduced when transmitted?

I mean, if you measure temperature and the thermometer reads -180 degree the scientific value of this information wouldn't diminish if I transmit it. Goo canister, materials container, atmospheric samples and surface sample, from the other hand should yield only 15-20% of its scientific value if transmitted since you cannot properly analyze them while in flight.

Crew and EVA reports should get you less than 100% for transmission because the medics have to study Kerbals on arrival to test the adequacy of their reports.

Edited February 16, 2015 by cicatrix

[BudgetHedgehog]

I love the materials bay. Imagine doing a surface sample at the Poles and finding a thing that you can load into the materials bay and shoot off to Moho and see how it copes in the high temperature you recorded during descent..

This is the best idea I've seen for improving science. Devs, pay attention. This guy has it figured out.

[Pthigrivi]

Thanks man

And yeah transmission values are definitely something that would have to be carefully balanced. There's some realism stuff there but mainly its a gameplay question for me. Right now I find myself doing a lot of repetitive clicking, EVAs to collect everything and store in the pod, rinse, repeat. A lot of this could be solved with a mid level scientist ability to "collect all data" back to the pod without EVA. Another mechanic that might integrate nicely is instead of science payouts increasing, transmission values and Science Lab processing values would increase, meaning a level 4 and 5 scientist could analyze samples nearly as well as bringing them back to Kerbin.

This means players can analysis the environment with stock tools, no need to check the wiki to find out the scale height of Kerbin.

A lot of people have called for fog-of-war kinds of things and I think this could be close to it, using experiments to fill in game data. For instance perhaps after doing a gravoli scan of Eve TWR information would become available for it. After a barometer scan it would tell you the Delta-V to reach orbit. It might even show ideal ascent profiles given your vessel's aerodyamics. Of course people could look things up and do the math to figure this out as we do now, but like making biomes visible in map mode it's really about the convenience and 1-1 kind of reward for gathering information before you mount a larger mission. Doing things this way has the added advantage of letting new players play and crash and test without being overwhelmed by data, and slowly letting that information become unlocked as the player desires.

Any other cool ideas for experiments?

Edited February 16, 2015 by Pthigrivi

[pincushionman]

Yes. A radar unit and a camera. used to create maps. Map View is fuzzy and low-resolution until camera scans are done, and elevation data is similarly spotty or wrong until radar scan.

Gives a pittance of science data on their own, but allows gravioli scans to be meaningful, and contract points-of-interest cannot be identified prior to scans. Gives a reason to send polar scanning satellites for long-term observation first.

Radar unit allows vessel to determine altitude AGL, rather than against the local geoid (keroid? Body-oid?)