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raxo2222

[Whatif] Portal/industrictible container with hole thermodynamics

15 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Portal is used to feed magic container, that has hole of one meter size.

Could be dug deep with magic pipe tunneling hot compressed matter outside to prevent thrusting away from place.

Once hot matter is out, what happens to surroundings?

 

For example this matter has composition, pressure and density of Venus atmosphere on surface or gaseous core of gas giant/star.

On other hand it could be vacuum cleaner or just drain water from marina trench.

Container is magic, so matter source is constantly replenished and there is no energy loss during matter transportion trough pipe.

Once matter is outside normal physics resume as in good old XKCD Whatif

Edited by raxo2222

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Posted (edited)

So this is one of these threads that never actually goes anywhere because the question basically boils down to "what happens to the laws of physics when we violate the laws of physics to create a situation" and so doesn't really make any sense. Nonetheless:

19 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

Lets say we have portal, that has radius of one meter on South Pole - deep under ice on rock base.

It leads to somewhere in vacuum. What would happen to ice over it? This meant ice would be chilled to 4 kelvins and there was unbalanced pressure of (tens) megapascals

So, because the vacuum is inherently absent of most matter, there is very little thermal conduction (i.e no convection, so only heat transfer is via radiation), so not much would happen to the temperature of the ice. The pressure probably (and that is a huge unknown) wouldn't have too much of an effect either if this is just a small bubble inside a huge ice structure, so you'd essentially just have a vacuum chamber inside the ice.

 

19 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

What would be happen, if portal instead being connected to vacuum in deep space was connected to surface of Venus?

In that case ice would be exposed to 700 K heat and pressure of 90 Mpa pushing in.

In this case, since you have effectively an infinite heat and pressure reservoir, the ice would melt and shatter due to the pressure.

 

19 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

Or instead we surround core of Earth/Jupiter/Sun/Neutron star with portal of equivalent area - pi square meter (radius of South Pole flat portal is one meter)

Not entirely sure what you're asking here.

 

19 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

I know, that there would be awesome volcano spewing ice/water/steam/plasma (source is few kilometers deep), but how high it would climb?

How much power it would output?

Almost certainly no way of knowing, considering my first statement!

Edited by Steel

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1. 
The ice will start sublimating, a snow fog will appear beneath the portal, then the snow will patch the hole and turn into ice.
When somebody with breaks it with a pickaxe, he'll be wondered, then will fly into space.

.2.
Two nice rocky planets covered with boiling soda (say, 300°C, 45 bar) under the greenhouse CO2 atmos.

3.
We'll get the samples of the core right from the surface. Of the molten Southen hemisphere.

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Ice in vacuum can be stable - look at all those comets.

Ice in heat and pressure can also be stable.

Sadly I'm still trying to decipher the rest of OP.

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, YNM said:

Ice in vacuum can be stable - look at all those comets.

Ice in heat and pressure can also be stable.

Sadly I'm still trying to decipher the rest of OP.

>.>

English isn't my primary language

 

7 hours ago, Steel said:

So this is one of these threads that never actually goes anywhere because the question basically boils down to "what happens to the laws of physics when we violate the laws of physics to create a situation" and so doesn't really make any sense. Nonetheless:

 

I thought What If questions were allowed here including kinda breaking physics ...

 

So this forum is like: Don't post "what if" questions and have good english lmao

Edited by raxo2222

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

English isn't my primary language

So am I ! But it's... fine, I suppose, someone from your locality in this forum should be able to translate it properly/

But this all comes down to the phase of ice itself in such conditions.

Edited by YNM

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2 hours ago, raxo2222 said:

I thought What If questions were allowed here including kinda breaking physics ...

This is true of course, but one has to be careful putting questions together that include impossible assumptions like indestructible materials or other outside-physical-law attributes, because the answer could be A) almost anything you can imagine, and/or B) completely meaningless in the real world, and/or C) impossible to answer without a framework set in reality.

If you are deciding the rules for the question, beyond a certain point you may as well decide the answer at the same time.

Your questions aren't so bad though :)

 

 

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4 hours ago, p1t1o said:

This is true of course, but one has to be careful putting questions together that include impossible assumptions like indestructible materials or other outside-physical-law attributes, because the answer could be A) almost anything you can imagine, and/or B) completely meaningless in the real world, and/or C) impossible to answer without a framework set in reality.

If you are deciding the rules for the question, beyond a certain point you may as well decide the answer at the same time.

Your questions aren't so bad though :)

 

 

Well I would like direct my questions about "compressed hot matter in strong container suddenly released trough smallish hole to outside" to XKCD WhatIfs, but they post so rarely...

 

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8 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

Well I would like direct my questions about "compressed hot matter in strong container suddenly released trough smallish hole to outside" to XKCD WhatIfs, but they post so rarely...

Indeed, gone are the once-a-week whatifs :(

REgarding your question: why would the answer not be "Hot matter rushes out of the hole very quickly, expands and cools." ?

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Posted (edited)

42 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

Indeed, gone are the once-a-week whatifs :(

REgarding your question: why would the answer not be "Hot matter rushes out of the hole very quickly, expands and cools." ?

Well yeah, but what about surroundings?

How much of problem it would be.

For example lets say this matter inside container is replenished (something like infinite fuel hack in KSP) and it is constantly flowing out.

Are there any formulas on mass flow trough hole depending on matter temperature, density and pressure?

Lets say matter leaving such container has composition, pressure and temperature of Venus atmosphere on surface - something like CO2 powered nuclear rocket from KSPI Interstellar.

Or Jupiter core - how much destruction it would cause?

Such container could be in center of earth with exhaust pipe opening on ice level few km under it to prevent it from flying away.

Such pipe also would be magic - no energy would flow outside its walls, just trough hole. Portal would be just used to act as infinite fuel cheat.

XKCD also was doing magic too like throwing balls at near light speed or creating portal to Narnia under ocean.

This would be awesome volcano, but it would be something like constantly exploding Tsar bomb if its fuel source was core of Sun/Neutron star?

 

Edited by raxo2222

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Are there any formulas on mass flow trough hole depending on matter temperature, density and pressure?

There most certainly are! Here are some links which are decent starting points - obviously there is more to it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_rate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/rktthsum.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_engine_nozzle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_diamond

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choked_flow

 

Lets say matter leaving such container has composition, pressure and temperature of Venus atmosphere on surface - something like CO2 powered nuclear rocket from KSPI Interstellar.

There isnt anything that special about Venus's atmosphere. Hot, high pressure (though not that high - or hot - in astronomical terms) gas - a conventional chemical rocket generates higher pressures and temperatures.

 

Or Jupiter core - how much destruction it would cause?

Difficult to say, this might be a good place to start:

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/9569212/Silvera_Metallic.pdf?sequence=2

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, p1t1o said:

Are there any formulas on mass flow trough hole depending on matter temperature, density and pressure?

There most certainly are! Here are some links which are decent starting points - obviously there is more to it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_rate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/rktthsum.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_engine_nozzle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_diamond

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choked_flow

 

Lets say matter leaving such container has composition, pressure and temperature of Venus atmosphere on surface - something like CO2 powered nuclear rocket from KSPI Interstellar.

There isnt anything that special about Venus's atmosphere. Hot, high pressure (though not that high - or hot - in astronomical terms) gas - a conventional chemical rocket generates higher pressures and temperatures.

 

Or Jupiter core - how much destruction it would cause?

Difficult to say, this might be a good place to start:

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/9569212/Silvera_Metallic.pdf?sequence=2

 

 

 

 

I wonder what rocket could recreate conditions in Jupiter core - pressure of 3 - 4.5 TPa and temperature of 36000 K

Sadly wiki doesn't say anything about density of mostly hydrogen core.

If nozzle was one meter sized I bet we could roast marshmallows in middle of Antarctica hundreds meters from such exhaust, if you don't mind thunderstorm, hurricane winds and heat (probably hydrogen could burn somewhere nearby such blue-white plume) :P 

Edited by raxo2222

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23 minutes ago, raxo2222 said:

I wonder what rocket could recreate conditions in Jupiter core - pressure of 3 - 4.5 TPa and temperature of 36000 K

Sadly wiki doesn't say anything about density of mostly hydrogen core.

If nozzle was one meter sized I bet we could roast marshmallows in middle of Antarctica hundreds meters from such exhaust, if you don't mind thunderstorm, hurricane winds and heat (probably hydrogen could burn somewhere nearby such blue-white plume) :P 

There's literally no rocket (and no mix of chemicals) that could produce those conditions.

The wiki won't say because we know next to nothing about Jupiter's core. We think it's probably metallic hydrogen and we've made some guesses from that, but we have no solid evidence.

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7 hours ago, Steel said:

There's literally no rocket (and no mix of chemicals) that could produce those conditions.

The wiki won't say because we know next to nothing about Jupiter's core. We think it's probably metallic hydrogen and we've made some guesses from that, but we have no solid evidence.

Not even theoretical design of antimatter rocket capable to send 1000 humans into nearest star?

This one still would achieve lower exhaust pressure?

 

 

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3 hours ago, raxo2222 said:

Not even theoretical design of antimatter rocket capable to send 1000 humans into nearest star?

This one still would achieve lower exhaust pressure?

 

 

No rocket will ever be able to produce those conditions because the rocket would immediately destroy itself (any rocket with a 36000 K exhaust temperature would) 

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