[WIP] MSI's Infernal Robotics - Plugin Rework (Updated: 05/04/2015)

[ZodiusInfuser]

FYI, just did a quick test of the stock IR provide here (i.e. not using the model rework package): the Rotatrons don't seem to be adhering to the limits set. I see the defaults are -360 to +360. They spin infinitely it seems. I tried inputting my own limit like 0 to 90, but they still go past those limits. Is this by design or a bug?

By default Rotatrons ignore any limits you set until you turn them on via the right-click menu. You should see a button for this that has the word Limits in it (I forget it's full name). if you don't see that then it is a bug.

[StahnAileron]

Ah, okay. I'll have to look at that later when I'm back home. Any chance that option could be integration into the Servo control panel somehow? (I honestly completely forgot about the right-click menu).

One more question: is it possible to rescale the parts via cfg edits of just the rescaleFactor and have the parts work as intended? I'm not really a fan of TweakScale; but at this point, if that is the preferred method for IR, I guess I'll have to re-install it later.

Thanks for the quick reply.

[ZodiusInfuser]

Ah, okay. I'll have to look at that later when I'm back home. Any chance that option could be integration into the Servo control panel somehow? (I honestly completely forgot about the right-click menu).

In-Flight you're only able to edit ranges via the right-click menu so Enable/Disable ranges may be a bit out of place on the Servo Control UI. It could be added to the group editor though.

One more question: is it possible to rescale the parts via cfg edits of just the rescaleFactor and have the parts work as intended? I'm not really a fan of TweakScale; but at this point, if that is the preferred method for IR, I guess I'll have to re-install it later.

Yes, it is entirely possible to create scaled versions that way. In fact it was the way we used to do it before Tweakscale came along and allowed us to condense 30+ parts down to 10.

[smjjames]

I have a small bug here, if you have an IR part that is connected on with symmetry and you move the part or whatever the part is attached to, it forgets the settings on the other side.

(just an example of the setup I mean, the beams were put on without symmetry)

Edit: Turns out that the joints on those things aren't very strong, heh.

Edited March 31, 2015 by smjjames

[V8jester]

I really like the acceleration and the new sound. A couple of issues I have is that unlike the original IR if you have robotics parts hidden inside of something. like landing gear or in my case a gun turret and camera. when you attempt to move anything it no longer phases the IR parts through other parts of the same craft. (I tried this on an already built craft that worked with 0.19.3 and IR Rework parts) As well I miss the step increments from the tweakable menu in the VAB/SPH, it made it a lot easier to set parts where you need them. Beside that I think you all have done a great job of updating IR. I look forward to what is on the horizon

[Ziw]

I really like the acceleration and the new sound. A couple of issues I have is that unlike the original IR if you have robotics parts hidden inside of something. like landing gear or in my case a gun turret and camera. when you attempt to move anything it no longer phases the IR parts through other parts of the same craft. (I tried this on an already built craft that worked with 0.19.3 and IR Rework parts) As well I miss the step increments from the tweakable menu in the VAB/SPH, it made it a lot easier to set parts where you need them. Beside that I think you all have done a great job of updating IR. I look forward to what is on the horizon

In the next pre-release coming this weekend (I hope) we'll bring much more usable precise positioning in editor along side other cool features.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a small bug here, if you have an IR part that is connected on with symmetry and you move the part or whatever the part is attached to, it forgets the settings on the other side.

(just an example of the setup I mean, the beams were put on without symmetry)

Edit: Turns out that the joints on those things aren't very strong, heh.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/smjjames/screenshot30_zpsk211vqul.png

Thanks, will try to reproduce it.

[riocrokite]

AFAIK, there is very limited control available to the IR plugin over how the joints behave, meaning the current behaviour is probably the best that the game allows. Also it doesn't help that most players create very weak contraptions to lift very heavy objects, which would just not work at all if done in the real world.

Yah I know, however having some kind of tweakable value for stiffness would be good since KSP imposes limitations that doesn't exist in RL. For example a cable system in cranes lets extendable frame to be relatively tiny (considering amounts of material used) and light compared to weights lifted.

Most of the crane mass and volume is in engine, wheels and counterweight. For example 5 ton crane skeleton is able to lift 70t+ (using steel cables). Now in KSP we can't use cables system or to very limited degree (via KAS) so in order to have comparative stiffness when lifting 70t the IR parts themselves have to weight 40-80t depending on how complicated model is and how long the boom extends

[StahnAileron]

So I got to testing IR Rotatrons once more. I think there is still a bug with the limits flag for them. I set limits (0 - 180 interval, typed via Group Editor) in the Editor (SPH in this case) and made sure the Limit option is set in the right-click menu. Tested in the SPH; works as intended. I set some groups and "launch" to test groups and presets (since preset mode isn't available in the Editor... well, not yet; I'm hoping that could be implemented later).

I get to the group with the Rotatron and notice it's spinning further than it should. I check the numbers and notice it wraps around to negative angles after hitting 180 (so from +180 it goes to -180). I check the right-click menu on the pad: says limits are engaged, but I know it's not. I click the limit toggle to be sure and suddenly my limits reset to -360 - +360. I adjust that and now the Rotatron obeys the limits. It looks like the game or plugin is not saving the limit flag and values properly when shifting from the Editor scene to the flight scene. Also, it doesn't save the limits when you toggle the limit on/off. It always resets to -360/+360.

And full disclosure: I do have the Model Rework installed as well. But the IR Plugin Rework stock Rotatron and the Model Rework one behave this way. (I first noticed it on the Model rework one. I went back to test a stock one to be sure. Last I recall, the Rework isn't technically cleared for compatibility with the Plug-in rework, correct?) Any idea if this is inherent to the plug-in or something induced by the older Model Rework mod? (The model rework adds a lot more functionality, so I don't want to remove it if I'm gonna use IR to begin with.)

[ZodiusInfuser]

And full disclosure: I do have the Model Rework installed as well. But the IR Plugin Rework stock Rotatron and the Model Rework one behave this way. (I first noticed it on the Model rework one. I went back to test a stock one to be sure. Last I recall, the Rework isn't technically cleared for compatibility with the Plug-in rework, correct?) Any idea if this is inherent to the plug-in or something induced by the older Model Rework mod? (The model rework adds a lot more functionality, so I don't want to remove it if I'm gonna use IR to begin with.)

To comment on this. I'll be releasing a new update to the Model Rework once the next Plugin Rework pre-release comes out soon. Although there isn't any inherent issues with the old parts, I have made tweaks to take advantage of some of the new plugin feature (e.g predefined presets).

[Ziw]

So I got to testing IR Rotatrons once more. I think there is still a bug with the limits flag for them. I set limits (0 - 180 interval, typed via Group Editor) in the Editor (SPH in this case) and made sure the Limit option is set in the right-click menu. Tested in the SPH; works as intended. I set some groups and "launch" to test groups and presets (since preset mode isn't available in the Editor... well, not yet; I'm hoping that could be implemented later).

I get to the group with the Rotatron and notice it's spinning further than it should. I check the numbers and notice it wraps around to negative angles after hitting 180 (so from +180 it goes to -180). I check the right-click menu on the pad: says limits are engaged, but I know it's not. I click the limit toggle to be sure and suddenly my limits reset to -360 - +360. I adjust that and now the Rotatron obeys the limits. It looks like the game or plugin is not saving the limit flag and values properly when shifting from the Editor scene to the flight scene. Also, it doesn't save the limits when you toggle the limit on/off. It always resets to -360/+360.

And full disclosure: I do have the Model Rework installed as well. But the IR Plugin Rework stock Rotatron and the Model Rework one behave this way. (I first noticed it on the Model rework one. I went back to test a stock one to be sure. Last I recall, the Rework isn't technically cleared for compatibility with the Plug-in rework, correct?) Any idea if this is inherent to the plug-in or something induced by the older Model Rework mod? (The model rework adds a lot more functionality, so I don't want to remove it if I'm gonna use IR to begin with.)

It is a known issue/bug that is fixed (hopefully) in the next pre-release, which should be up soon.

[StahnAileron]

Awesome! Thanks guys!

BTW, is there any chance that it could be a bit easier to work with presets for groups? From my limited interaction with the system, you have to manually supply the preset settings one part at a time. I was thinking maybe you could have a "Group Preset" window where you can see all the part presets for a group in one window so you can see which setting on one part corresponds with another (probably in columns: parts names on the left with preset number going across on top). Easier part syncing, basically. Clicking on "Add Preset" would add another preset column for you to fill in all in one go. (Also, any chance of being able to test presets in the Editor instead of having to "launch"?) I do understand it could be a massive window depending on the design. Scrolls would be required after a certain point.

Lastly, the Preset system currently forces presets into numeric value order. (e.g. Presets of 0 - 45 -90 would trigger in that order regardless of what order I input them). Any plans to support arbitrary ordering? (e.g. I can trigger presets values in the order of 0 - 90 - 45.)

[Ziw]

Awesome! Thanks guys!

BTW, is there any chance that it could be a bit easier to work with presets for groups? From my limited interaction with the system, you have to manually supply the preset settings one part at a time. I was thinking maybe you could have a "Group Preset" window where you can see all the part presets for a group in one window so you can see which setting on one part corresponds with another (probably in columns: parts names on the left with preset number going across on top). Easier part syncing, basically. Clicking on "Add Preset" would add another preset column for you to fill in all in one go. (Also, any chance of being able to test presets in the Editor instead of having to "launch"?) I do understand it could be a massive window depending on the design. Scrolls would be required after a certain point.

Lastly, the Preset system currently forces presets into numeric value order. (e.g. Presets of 0 - 45 -90 would trigger in that order regardless of what order I input them). Any plans to support arbitrary ordering? (e.g. I can trigger presets values in the order of 0 - 90 - 45.)

First, if your IR parts were added in Radial or Mirror symmetry you can "clone" presets between them by pressing ApplySymmetry button. There are plans for arbitrary preset order (and much more than just that), but it would be an Addon to IR to be released alongside with full release.

In the pre-release coming later this week we added the ability to set parts to preset positions in Editor and move them to arbitrary preset in Flight via GUI only (no action support).

[V8jester]

I want to say thanks to all you guys that make IR a possibility. It's the primary reason I started playing KSP. I saw a Youtube video with a crane inside of a VTOL lander on Duna and I was hooked. So in the interests of sharing ideas and also to fallow up to my earlier comment of using IR parts inside a craft and have it phase through another part here is an example of what I meant. under the belly of this V-22 Osprey is a pan and tilt camera with all the IR pan and tilt parameters mirrored on a gun turret right behind it. you use a Hullcam to view and (JKIL) to move the camera along with the turret. And the whole thing can be retracted

Please forgive the really Shotty cell phone pics (I'll work on swapping them out tonight)

More Osprey Pics

http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/v8jester1/library/Osprey

Edited April 2, 2015 by V8jester

[StahnAileron]

First, if your IR parts were added in Radial or Mirror symmetry you can "clone" presets between them by pressing ApplySymmetry button.

The thing is I'm thinking of designing a robotic arm (similar to the Shuttle or ISS arms), so I won't be using symmetry much.

Actually, what about support for the same part in multiple groups? (Again, I'm thinking about something like a robotic arm. I'm trying to get basic, common, coordinated movements.) Just thoughts and ideas. I still like this version of IR over the older version. (The angle drift and x-x degree limits = infinite movement in the older version is what drove me away from it initially.) Looking forward to progress in this plugin (and the Model rework as well ^_~ The two go hand-in-hand, IMHO.)

[sumghai]

ZodiusInfuser and Ziw, I've submitted the following issues on GitHub for your consideration

https://github.com/sirkut/InfernalRobotics/issues/39

https://github.com/sirkut/InfernalRobotics/issues/40

[ZodiusInfuser]

ZodiusInfuser and Ziw, I've submitted the following issues on GitHub for your consideration

https://github.com/sirkut/InfernalRobotics/issues/39

https://github.com/sirkut/InfernalRobotics/issues/40

The first one is already part of the plugin (or if it isn't it will be by the next pre-release). That code is the exact syntax I use in my CFG files to pre-define presets

As for the other one, for me personally I'd like to see a use-case where preventing the user from changing presets would be wanted, baring in mind they're able to manually move the part between positions using the normal control buttons anyway.

[sumghai]

As for the other one, for me personally I'd like to see a use-case where preventing the user from changing presets would be wanted, baring in mind they're able to manually move the part between positions using the normal control buttons anyway.

As described in issue #40, basically, I have a warehouse part with a KAS/KIS payload rack carousel that can move between 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees. Due to space restrictions, the bay doors only cover 1/4 of the circumference.

I don't want people to fiddle with the preset positions for this part, because if someone changed any of the values, the carousel would end up stopping in a position where it would be impossible to grab a payload rack.

[riocrokite]

I don't know how hard is to implement it, however if there is a possibility for free-movement rotators (and maybe movers???) to be switchable we could :

1) reduce part count (simple rotator and free-movement rotator in one part)

2) make building of cable-assisted cranes much easier (rotators are intially rigid and could be set in a position to attach lines and then let loose to be steered by those cables (using KAS winches))

something like that

Edited April 2, 2015 by riocrokite

[achroma]

Okaaay. I had a weird bug where having the Structural rework models in the same folder will show the IR editor once, but after closing it, it will be closed forever. So i removed the structural folder and did a fresh IR install. So, i went about building my big ship. Uses four Powered Hinges (default straight one). At 286% the movement works fine in the editor, but after launching the hinges only want to move in and out a tiny bit. I'm trying to move those giant B9 engines, needs to be big. Shrinking a pair down to 100% and they move fine, where the back pair, still at 286% do the weird thing. With all at 400% they're still borked.

Also i'd like to second the idea of having a move to Center/Default button in the editor. Launching with a hinge at .03 is absurd.

But awesome work, guys! Glad this mod is getting more love. Use it on practically every craft i launch.

[ZodiusInfuser]

Okaaay. I had a weird bug where having the Structural rework models in the same folder will show the IR editor once, but after closing it, it will be closed forever. So i removed the structural folder and did a fresh IR install. So, i went about building my big ship. Uses four Powered Hinges (default straight one). At 286% the movement works fine in the editor, but after launching the hinges only want to move in and out a tiny bit. I'm trying to move those giant B9 engines, needs to be big. Shrinking a pair down to 100% and they move fine, where the back pair, still at 286% do the weird thing. With all at 400% they're still borked.

Scaling that far from the designed scales is bugged (not really sure what the cause is). It's suspected that KSP is adding its own joints between the two halves of the IR part to help with rigidity, which conflicts with the IR joint. You can try cfg editing the part to give you a copy at 4x the size, as some people have reported that to work without issue.

[CaptainKipard]

I'm out of the loop. Is sirkut not working on this any more? His tutorial on making parts for IR should be updated to explain the new features. Pretty please.

[ZodiusInfuser]

I'm out of the loop. Is sirkut not working on this any more? His tutorial on making parts for IR should be updated to explain the new features. Pretty please.

Hi Kipard

Sirkut is still involved, but he's taking a back seat whilst these other guys do the actual code improvements. It will all get merged back in to the main IR release after a few more pre-releases.

[Azimech]

Not sure if suggested or not ... I would love a tweakable to switch off the electric stuff and make the joint a free runner, on all parts. It's like removing the motor and brake.

I have a million functions for it, and I'm not alone.

[erendrake]

NEW PRE-RELEASE

Changes in v0.20

* More Code Cleanup

* GUI Enhancements

* Custom category in Editor listing all robotic parts.

* Editor and Flight window width is scaled dynamically

* Editor window now has an option to revert servo to 0

* In Preset Editor added button to move servo to preset, works in flight too.

* Position and ranges for inverted axis parts are now shown correctly and in different style

* Some new icons

* New Tweakscale configs

* Some minor bugfixes

https://github.com/erendrake/InfernalRobotics/releases/tag/v0.20B

Edited April 3, 2015 by erendrake

[AccidentalDisassembly]

I am loving the changes in IR, but it's pointless to have a tweakscale config that allows sizes above 199% or so if the bug with scaling IR parts up that large hasn't been resolved...

Again, it is extremely easy to replicate.

Just scale a part up past 1.5x or so, then go try to use it. For example, scale a powered hinge to 400% in the vab, launch, attempt to move it.