Organic Technology.

[Brethern]

Most of the time in Science Fiction, if you want to show a species is alien or powerful you give them miles long ships partially or fully organic. In real life partially organic ships were used up to the 19th century at which point creating ships from metals proved to be much better.

So I'm wondering if an organic space ship could work in real life.

For this exercise let's say that humans figured out a way around the square cube law, and we figured out an organic material that can withstand spaceflight and reentry.

Let's also assume that we need to build an organic ship because the metals needed are no longer around.

So with that in place, that leads to four questions

What would be the best material for the hull?

would it be possible to create an organic engine?

What kind of infrastructure would we need in order to make this?

Could we even launch a space craft without having access to metals?

[Bill Phil]

The hull would best be something that's similar to the exoskeleton used on many small (ish) creatures. Probably with sacs of water behind it or something.

An organic engine? Probably. Some protists have pumps in their cells, I see no reason why they couldn't go bigger and collect matter and expel it at high pressure and speed.

An actual organic thing that could do this.

Since the hull is best to be an exoskeleton-esque thing, probably not.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Bill Phil
endo is not exo

[lajoswinkler]

All cells have pumps in their membranes, but those can't work in vacuum as they operate using concentration gradients and require solvents. One of the reasons nothing can survive indefinitively in vacuum.

[Brethern]

All cells have pumps in their membranes, but those can't work in vacuum as they operate using concentration gradients and require solvents. One of the reasons nothing can survive indefinitively in vacuum.

Hmm, what about some form of muscle capable of putting pressure on the bladder so that the fuel would be forced out the way we want it to go?

The hull would best be something that's similar to the endoskeleton used on many small (ish) creatures. Probably with sacs of water behind it or something.

An organic engine? Probably. Some protists have pumps in their cells, I see no reason why they couldn't go bigger and collect matter and expel it at high pressure and speed.

An actual organic thing that could do this.

Since the hull is best to be an endoskeleton-esque thing, probably not.

So a material like coral or bone, that's the thing I've though of as well.

[smjjames]

The hull would best be something that's similar to the endoskeleton used on many small (ish) creatures. Probably with sacs of water behind it or something.

An organic engine? Probably. Some protists have pumps in their cells, I see no reason why they couldn't go bigger and collect matter and expel it at high pressure and speed.

An actual organic thing that could do this.

Since the hull is best to be an endoskeleton-esque thing, probably not.

I think you actually mean EXOskeleton here.

Actually, a combination would work, an outer hard shell, plus some internal hardened attachment points or something. Though the design would be very different depending on whether you're planning on ever entering an atmosphere or landing somewhere with significant gravity.

[Bill Phil]

I think you actually mean EXOskeleton here.

Actually, a combination would work, an outer hard shell, plus some internal hardened attachment points or something. Though the design would be very different depending on whether you're planning on ever entering an atmosphere or landing somewhere with significant gravity.

Argh! You're right! Man.. I always get those confused...

- - - Updated - - -

All cells have pumps in their membranes, but those can't work in vacuum as they operate using concentration gradients and require solvents. One of the reasons nothing can survive indefinitively in vacuum.

I'm referring to literal pumps. Not the protein kind, but macrostructures.

[SuperFastJellyfish]

For propulsion, you could look into bombardier beetles. They've evolved their own rocket engines with gimbal functionality!

Edited April 3, 2015 by SuperFastJellyfish

[Brethern]

For propulsion, you could look into bombardier beetles. They've evolved their own rocket engines with gimbal functionality!

So we have an example of the rocket engine theory in nature, I wonder what issues in scaling it up would appear?

[Scotius]

Bombardier beetle expels his "liquid fuel" from his organism, where it combusts at the contact with the air. Internal combustion would kill poor beetle, just like we would die after swallowing primed-up grenade. To turn a beetle into a spaceship, we would have to grow a nozzle on him. And some excellent heat insulation

It's too much hassle for a civilisation like ours - tool oriented and not starved for metals. But a civilisation developing on a metal-poor world with rich ecosystem theoretically could concentrate on genetic engineering. But i have serious doubts about carbon based organic creatures being able to match inorganic machines in efficiency.

[Bill Phil]

With a mineral bone growth and piping, a nozzle could be made...

[SuperFastJellyfish]

Bombardier beetle expels his "liquid fuel" from his organism, where it combusts at the contact with the air. Internal combustion would kill poor beetle, just like we would die after swallowing primed-up grenade. To turn a beetle into a spaceship, we would have to grow a nozzle on him. And some excellent heat insulation

There are many species of them so you may be right, but the wiki says that some have a reaction chamber:

This reaction is very exothermic, and the released energy raises the temperature of the mixture to near 100 °C, vaporizing about a fifth of it. The resultant pressure buildup forces the entrance valves from the reactant storage chambers to close, thus protecting the beetle's internal organs. The boiling, foul-smelling liquid partially becomes a gas by flash evaporation and is expelled explosively through an outlet valve, with a loud popping sound. The beetles' glands store enough hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide to allow the beetle to release its chemical spray roughly 20 times. In some cases this is enough to kill a predator.^[4] The main component of the beetle spray is 1, 4-Benzoquinone, which is particularly irritating to the eyes and the respiratory system.

The flow of reactants into the reaction chamber and subsequent ejection occur in a series of about 70 pulses, at a rate of about 500 pulses per second. The whole sequence of events takes only a fraction of a second. These pulsations are caused by repeated microexplosions which are the results of the continuous pressure on the reservoir and the oscillatroy opening and closing of the valve that controls access to the reaction chamber. This pulsed mechanism is beneficial for the beetles' survival because the system uses pressure instead of muscles to eject the spray at a constant velocity, saving the beetle energy. Also, the reintroduction of new reactants into the vestibule where enzymes are stored, reduces the temperature of the chamber, thereby protecting the peroxidases and catalases from thermal denaturation.^[5]

Typically the beetle turns its body so as to direct the jet towards whatever triggered the response. The gland openings of some African bombardier beetles can swivel through 270° and thrust between the insect's legs, discharging the fluid in a wide range of directions with considerable accuracy.^[6]

[MasterSounis]

Limpet teeth.

http://www.port.ac.uk/uopnews/2015/02/18/scientists-find-strongest-natural-material/

If you need to make a bio-spaceship, this structure is probably your best bet.

[Scotius]

That's quite impressive O.o How a small insect can survive such salvo without boiling itself from the inside? I need to read more about those small flamethrowers

[Terwin]

What exactly is the distinction between a vehicle with full self-repair functionality and one that is 'organic' or 'alive'?

What if it can fully develop from a small pod, and such pods can be produced from a fully developed vehicle?

Could we even tell if an advanced alien ship was alive vs having really good self-repair without a detailed examination?

What if the ship started as a lithovore that exudes a metallic shell?

I think the distinction is not so clear as we might think, and as our technology gets better the distinction will get to be less and less.

(which is more 'alive'? The self-repairing vehicle that can bud off new ships like itself with no organic heritage or the heavily modified, but still technically 'alive' giant crustation that has an exoskeleton currently in use as the outer hull of a ship with no ability to reproduce or even repair the outer hull?)

[Brethern]

What exactly is the distinction between a vehicle with full self-repair functionality and one that is 'organic' or 'alive'?

What if it can fully develop from a small pod, and such pods can be produced from a fully developed vehicle?

Could we even tell if an advanced alien ship was alive vs having really good self-repair without a detailed examination?

What if the ship started as a lithovore that exudes a metallic shell?

I think the distinction is not so clear as we might think, and as our technology gets better the distinction will get to be less and less.

(which is more 'alive'? The self-repairing vehicle that can bud off new ships like itself with no organic heritage or the heavily modified, but still technically 'alive' giant crustation that has an exoskeleton currently in use as the outer hull of a ship with no ability to reproduce or even repair the outer hull?)

That's a debate that has been going on for years. Honestly until we develop a sentient robot or computer the only way we're going to be able to make that distinction is based on weather or not the thing in question is organic.

[AngelLestat]

if you find a way of propulsion without proppelent, then you can acomplish that with genetic engineering (if your knowledge in genetic is enoght)

[magnemoe]

What exactly is the distinction between a vehicle with full self-repair functionality and one that is 'organic' or 'alive'?

What if it can fully develop from a small pod, and such pods can be produced from a fully developed vehicle?

Could we even tell if an advanced alien ship was alive vs having really good self-repair without a detailed examination?

What if the ship started as a lithovore that exudes a metallic shell?

I think the distinction is not so clear as we might think, and as our technology gets better the distinction will get to be less and less.

(which is more 'alive'? The self-repairing vehicle that can bud off new ships like itself with no organic heritage or the heavily modified, but still technically 'alive' giant crustation that has an exoskeleton currently in use as the outer hull of a ship with no ability to reproduce or even repair the outer hull?)

This an fully organic creature, think an animal would not work well.

An more traditional ship with good self repair capabilities would not be alive, US capital ships during WW2 had good self repair capabilities but was not alive. yes it used crew not robots but that is details.

Something build out of nano bots might be the most realistic living ship, or the ships way to repair it self and perhaps reproduce looks organic.

it might also make sense to make part of the ship like AI and life support an organism.

[Kryten]

if you find a way of propulsion without proppelent, then you can acomplish that with genetic engineering (if your knowledge in genetic is enoght)

Genetics isn't magic-all it ultimately is code for proteins or functional RNA, and there are limits to what either of those can do.

[AngelLestat]

I will said that for now.. is quite the opposite.. we can not do what genetics does just by a nature equilibrium of matter (evolution).

They can generate or detect electromagnetism, they can change of color by modify the separation between nanoparticles, then you have the brain, also some of the harded shells (which is also alive), etc.

Extremophiles can survive in space and they dint evolve to acomplish that..

So if humanty become some time in genetic masters (maybe 10000 years from now), they will be capable to make anything they want.

[Sage]

I will said that for now.. is quite the opposite.. we can not do what genetics does just by a nature equilibrium of matter (evolution).

They can generate or detect electromagnetism, they can change of color by modify the separation between nanoparticles, then you have the brain, also some of the harded shells (which is also alive), etc.

Extremophiles can survive in space and they dint evolve to acomplish that..

So if humanty become some time in genetic masters (maybe 10000 years from now), they will be capable to make anything they want.

Slow down there buddy, actually neurobiologist here, genetics can't do anything against physical laws. Even what you describe isn't anything that's particularly special, it's just stuff that happens at a different scale than what we usually use. But it is also reciprocal, no system in nature has rotating shafts (except for some protein, but none produces ordinate macroscopic movement), nor any animal uses electromagnets to move stuff or no brain is fully programmable with the power of a modern CPU. All biological engines use a propellant of some sort. Most of the time is a chemical potential charge in ATP/ADP/AMP equilibrium or an H+ gradient across a membrane. And evolution is just a selection process, no special powers attached, except unmanageable genetic code.

On topic, it depends what you mean with organics. Our old "organic" way of transportation weren't any different from modern one except in the nature of the materials used. In short, a native making a ship out of wood isn't conceptually different than making it out of metals (except the wood one is going to float better). If we adopt this line of reasoning, no organic material that can be worked can withstand space.

If you mean the "spaceship made of living cells!" kind of thing is somewhat "possible", but it is in the end a huge drawback. As I've said living matter can teach us a lot of incredible tricks and molecular combinations that we find difficult to imagine and calculate by selecting those with millenia of random generations with selections. But for this very reason they are also limited, as in they are pushed at the best they can do with their biological nature, but often the full periodic table and the mind of a intelligent creator can improve this with ease, while evolution was restricted by its own boundary conditions. Take for example cells themselves, they are mostly a byproduct of how living being generates and self organize, but sometimes they are a problem for complex structures, and even more often they end up loosing they strong points like regeneration possibilities, while human industry, that relies on centralized production can improve a complex structure design and functionality by producing it directly and cell-less. The brain itself hold secrets about incredible circuitry able to perform incredible operations but in terms of raw speed and precisions and energy consumption our current (and future carbon-based) tech would be better than the single nerve cells, which need to be cells too while being wires and integrators. The only time where totally unmodified biotech is good is when you have to interface yourself with complex biological systems, where in the end a modified bacteria is usually much less work than anything else.

So the future is organic not in the sense that "our spaceships are like giant live space whales" sci-fi, but more something like "our spaceship has bacteria that recycle organic matter for food, while the batteries are based on a nanostructures found in species x and the AI of the scip has neural-like expansions circuitry to interface itself with humans and perform complex shape recognition tasks". A bit more boring, I know.

TL;DR No, don't get crazy. Remember the flying cars we were promised :/

[BigFatStupidHead]

... no system in nature has rotating shafts (except for some protein, but none produces ordinate macroscopic movement), ...

Just a quibble, flagella do contain rotating shafts, and some flagellated organisms can be seen with the naked eye.

[Brethern]

This an fully organic creature, think an animal would not work well.

An more traditional ship with good self repair capabilities would not be alive, US capital ships during WW2 had good self repair capabilities but was not alive. yes it used crew not robots but that is details.

Something build out of nano bots might be the most realistic living ship, or the ships way to repair it self and perhaps reproduce looks organic.

it might also make sense to make part of the ship like AI and life support an organism.

Ships used in WW2 required metals, and other resources which as I recall were rationed fairly heavily during the war, a ship grown from organic matter requires only renewable substances to be created.

[AngelLestat]

But it is also reciprocal, no system in nature has rotating shafts (except for some protein, but none produces ordinate macroscopic movement), nor any animal uses electromagnets to move stuff or no brain is fully programmable with the power of a modern CPU. All biological engines use a propellant of some sort. Most of the time is a chemical potential charge in ATP/ADP/AMP equilibrium or an H+ gradient across a membrane. And evolution is just a selection process, no special powers attached, except unmanageable genetic code.

But let me remind you the topic.. It does not said "there is a animal of planet earth that it will be an spaceship in space?"

It said: Is possible to build a spaceship with organic material...

The answer is yes.. organics can take any shape, texture, elasticity, they can be conductors, semiconductors, even super conductors at low scale, Is all based in carbon after all.

We choice in general single structures to work or studie, because they are easy to understand and predictible. Not like what happen in atomic level with all the possibilities than organic materials had.

If you mean the "spaceship made of living cells!" kind of thing is somewhat "possible", but it is in the end a huge drawback. As I've said living matter can teach us a lot of incredible tricks and molecular combinations that we find difficult to imagine and calculate by selecting those with millenia of random generations with selections. But for this very reason they are also limited, as in they are pushed at the best they can do with their biological nature, but often the full periodic table and the mind of a intelligent creator can improve this with ease, while evolution was restricted by its own boundary conditions. Take for example cells themselves, they are mostly a byproduct of how living being generates and self organize, but sometimes they are a problem for complex structures, and even more often they end up loosing they strong points like regeneration possibilities, while human industry, that relies on centralized production can improve a complex structure design and functionality by producing it directly and cell-less. The brain itself hold secrets about incredible circuitry able to perform incredible operations but in terms of raw speed and precisions and energy consumption our current (and future carbon-based) tech would be better than the single nerve cells, which need to be cells too while being wires and integrators. The only time where totally unmodified biotech is good is when you have to interface yourself with complex biological systems, where in the end a modified bacteria is usually much less work than anything else.

again, you are talking of evolution and we are talking of design. It can be a living thing or not, but we already find methods of how to use some dna (or something else, I dint remember) to programe an structure to take certain shape. Also to auto repair.

So the future is organic not in the sense that "our spaceships are like giant live space whales" sci-fi, but more something like "our spaceship has bacteria that recycle organic matter for food, while the batteries are based on a nanostructures found in species x and the AI of the scip has neural-like expansions circuitry to interface itself with humans and perform complex shape recognition tasks". A bit more boring, I know.

Nobody is saying if that is the future or not, they only ask if is possible.

Also the question does not specify if its in 100 years or in 1000000 years.