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Top Gun AI - The Official Tournament Thread

RocketTurtle
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FlipNascar

FlipNascar

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Which is fine, but surely I should have been told this so that I could either remove dead weight, or reposition the engines. That's my gripe. I'm fine with rules. I'm fine with the fact that this design infringes the rules (which it did not when it was submitted). What's not cool, is that this was not made completely clear. If it is in the thread, clearly I have missed it. A little communication can go a long way. A PM stating the rules infringement - which was added after the craft had been designed - would have gone a long way, and would have meant the design could then have been reconfigured.

Clearly the Budgie is outclassed by the Hobgoblin. I did not expect it to win, it was never meant to win. What I was curious to see was if placing trust in thrust was semi-feasible.

Perhaps in the future when the rules are changed it should be for following rounds... I accept that this was the first round and therefore subject to much change, but at some point there has to be a line drawn in the sand for the sake of the participants.

/rant

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colmo

colmo

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When I started this format, I thought it was intuitively obvious what parts were OK to clip, and what was not. Evidently not. If you want more engines, then you have to pay the design penalty of increased fuselage size and drag. I thought engine clipping had been clearly ruled out earlier in the thread but perhaps the OP needed to be updated.

I'd suggest that parts you can't clip are engines, cockpits (or at least their glass canopy), or fuel tanks with other fuel tanks.

Parts that make sense to clip - structural, intakes, fuel tanks (as long as not with other fuel tanks, unless one is drained of fuel).

For guns, as long as the muzzle is not clipped, and missiles you obviously don't want to clip!

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Slam_Jones

Slam_Jones

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Regarding altitude and min altitude, should we (for the next tourny) have rules in place to keep it even? Like the person running the tourny would set the Min Altitude and Altitude so that they are consistent across all entries. That way, we won't have some jets firing away .05 seconds after taking off, or zooming up to several thousand kms and out of the combat zone.

IMO, it would help keep the battles from A) being particularly one-sided, and B) going on til one/both run out of fuel (a very anti-climactic way to end a battle, IMO).

@Evstaman: looks good, but a little spammy. If it were mine, I'd try changing out the front wings so there's only 2 (not 4) and move the tail fins a little bit so it looks a little less spammy. But that's up to you.

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RocketTurtle

RocketTurtle

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Which is fine, but surely I should have been told this so that I could either remove dead weight, or reposition the engines. That's my gripe. I'm fine with rules. I'm fine with the fact that this design infringes the rules (which it did not when it was submitted). What's not cool, is that this was not made completely clear. If it is in the thread, clearly I have missed it. A little communication can go a long way. A PM stating the rules infringement - which was added after the craft had been designed - would have gone a long way, and would have meant the design could then have been reconfigured.

Clearly the Budgie is outclassed by the Hobgoblin. I did not expect it to win, it was never meant to win. What I was curious to see was if placing trust in thrust was semi-feasible.

Perhaps in the future when the rules are changed it should be for following rounds... I accept that this was the first round and therefore subject to much change, but at some point there has to be a line drawn in the sand for the sake of the participants.

/rant

No I'm fairly certain we established that the RAPIERS would be disabled. Maybe you missed that post

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Slam_Jones

Slam_Jones

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^^ This is what I found as far as that conversation goes:

Then perhaps my Budgie is also disqualified. I put Turboramejets on the rear attachment nodes of the Rapiers and then used the offset tool to make it look pretty...
Does the plane use the Jet for thrust? If not, you are fine.
No, you just have to adjust the design. It is only an issue with clipped fuel.
It does use the jets for the thrust... It was designed around the concept of the TurboRapier because moar power is always good. That's the beauty of the TurboRapier, you can combine two engines in the space of one without any shenanigans. Everything else is "legit", and the turbojets and Rapiers will still work if you remove the offset... But it is somewhat late to be chopping and changing. I'll not do the same for any future entries.
Hey pixel, if it does that can't you just disable thrust on the rapiers or the turbo ramjets?

As far as I can tell, it was kinda implied that one set of the jets (either RAPIER or RamJet) would be turned off, but I don't see anywhere it explicitly said which ones. Maybe I missed it tho?

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RocketTurtle

RocketTurtle

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^^ This is what I found as far as that conversation goes:

As far as I can tell, it was kinda implied that one set of the jets (either RAPIER or RamJet) would be turned off, but I don't see anywhere it explicitly said which ones. Maybe I missed it tho?

That might have been it. I thought it was implied as well. We had established no engine clipping, so...

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FlipNascar

FlipNascar

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It doesn't matter, what's done is done. The point isn't to call out and cry "unfair". Clearly I had missed it, and I'm okay to admit that I clearly missed the point, as it wasn't decreed that it had to be changed. The wonder of ambiguity and "kinda implied". Moreover, surely the tournament host has the defining word as to whether or not a rule is infringed. With all due respect, but who the heck is Alphasaurus to declare rules? Ambiguity leads to confusion, which leads to silliness like this.

I'm not trying to get anything redacted, or have the match redone or some such. It's more a case of let's ensure that this doesn't happen again. Clear cut rules where clearly some ambiguity exists, as it did in this case, need clarification from the tournament host. And that if such an infringement has been made then to contact the creator so that there is a chance to rectify the transgression.

Line in the sand has been drawn. Let's move forward.

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Alphasus

Alphasus

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Hmm, Alphasaurus was interpreting the rules that were already there when colmo established the format.colmo said that structural can be clipped for looks, and he also said that guns could be clipped as well as ammo. He never said anything about engines, but he did mention fuel tanks. Not to mention that I was the lenient one when we started the discussion by talking about the engine clipping of the XMF. EvenFlow agreed to remove it. I can understand you not seeing that, but it was mentioned as breaking the rules before the budgie was discussed. You even mentioned that the budgie may have to be changed in that conversation.

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colmo

colmo

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The purpose of these early contests is to hammer out a consensus. The WW2 thread has taken the idea and run with it, more power to them.

It's natural that early rules will miss obvious loopholes or have grey areas. As long as everyone is content, that's the main thing.

I would like some more engine options, currently the Turbofan is it - the basic jet got needed to oblivion and weighs almost as much, yet lacks gimballing, and the Rapier is worse in all respects unless we allow oxidiser.

However, going beyond stock is a whole new ballgame so we make do for now.

- - - Updated - - -

*nerfed.

The basic jet does has tremendous ISP but I don't think its high mass allows lower fuel mass to compensate enough to match the TWRs the turbofan can manage.

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Alphasus

Alphasus

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Posted (edited)

I will be starting a tournament for this: The BiWeekly(tentative) Alpha Tournament.

Rules:

-No mods. (Except for BDarmory)

-Fights are 1v1

-Fights are best of 3

-The last flying aircraft wins. If both are destroyed in the sky, the round is considered a draw. If one runs out of fuel it is a loss.

-Part Count Cap of 125(Don't push this!)

-ALL DESIGNS MUST HAVE A COCKPIT, PROBES ARE NOT ALLOWED.

-REACTION WHEELS ARE ALSO NOT ALLOWED(except for the cockpit reaction wheels). They are stupidly OP.

-All designs must be within the point limit, which is stated below.

-All turrets MUST be fixed forward

-One entry per tournament, unless stated otherwise.

-No clipping fuel tanks or engines. They can be slightly clipped for looks, but not completely inside each other. Structural parts and ammo, guns, gear, etc. Is ok. Wings are OK as long as you're not putting all your wings inside the plane.

-All planes can and will be inspected without warning for rule compliance.

ALL PLANES ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE RADOMES!

60 point limit

-AIM-9 - 5 Points

-AIM-120 - 4 Points

-All other missiles - 4 points

-Chaff - 2 Points

-Flares- 3 Points

-Ammo Can - 4 points (all types)

-.50 cal turret - 4 points

-GAU 8 30mm - 14 points

-M230 - 6 points

-Vulcan Hidden - 6 points

-Vulcan Turret - 8 points

-ECM Jammer - 20 points

-Goalkeeper - Banned

-Abrams Cannon - Banned

-M102 - Banned

-Millennium Cannon - Banned

ABL Laser - Banned

ADDENDUM: All settings EXCEPT for teams will be used as provided. So, save your planes with guard and AI setups. No changes after the signup. Planes cannot be changed when and after signup is done.

Also, if anyone is found to be breaking the rules, they will be dropped into the loser's bracket, and it will be recorded as a loss. These rules are tentative, and so if a rule change occurs, you have until the next match to change the plane. I will do a temporary fix for that match where the rule change occurred just before the match.

Sign-up for the tournament allows for 16 planes. Sign-up occurs on this page:http://challonge.com/tournaments/signup/tKV5Op6xhe

Or, you can request to be added on this thread.

During tournament fights, planes will be 1 km apart(roughly).

Mid Air Collisions cause draws.

16 planes have already entered, any new participants are on waiting list.

Badges here:http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/130238-Top-Gun-AI-The-Official-Tournament-Thread/page53

Edited by Alphasus
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Slam_Jones

Slam_Jones

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Posted (edited)

Signed up and entered myself in the tourny. Will upload .craft file and pics in a couple hours.

Btw just so I'm sure, does: chaff = ecm jammer, and flares = smoke? Or are those different objects?

Edited by Slam_Jones
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