Unmanned Mün landing with RemoteTech?

[ToukieToucan]

So, yet again I've been busy making relay systems around Kerbin and the Mün. This is my current situation:

http://postimg.org/image/ygt4n4vhd/

Inner 4 satellites (Solidarity):

Each have 1 Comm 16 (omni) (for low kerbin orbits)

At 500 km

 

Outer 3 satellites (Serenity):

Each have 3 DTS-M1 (first dish):

1 pointed towards the next satellite in the link

1 pointed towards the previous satellite in the link

1 pointed to 'Current Vessel' 

At 2500 Km

 

On to the Mün:

http://postimg.org/image/rovbarb0f/

 

Inner 3 satellites (Orb of the Night):

Each have a Comm 16 (covers to whole surface for landing)

At 300 Km

 

Outer 2 satellites (Day of Night):

Each have 3 DTS-M1 and 1 Comm 16

1 DTS-M1 comm for every "Serenity" satellite though there is no link back it seems to work fine with connecting all the "Orb of the Night" satellites (is this because of the target on the "Current Vessel" at the "Serenity" satellites?)

1 Comm 16 for the "Orb of the Night" satellites

At 500 Km

 

So which Comms and how many do I need for an unmanned mission to the Mün? Also where should my dishes be pointed at on my Mün lander?

Edited January 17, 2016 by ToukieToucan
Fixed links

[Stone Blue]

39 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

So which Comms and how many do I need for an unmanned mission to the Mün? Also where should my dishes be pointed at on my Mün lander?

1 Comm16, 1 DTS-M1.... Dish targeting Kerbin will work...

Incidentally, this would be all you should need on a Minmus lander as well....

Edited January 17, 2016 by Stone Blue

[ToukieToucan]

1 minute ago, Stone Blue said:

1 Comm16, 1 DTS-M1.... Dish targeting Kerbin will work...

Whats the difference of targeting Kerbin vs KSC?

[Stone Blue]

Well, I could be wrong, but I imagine if you target KSC, you'll lose comms as Kerbin rotates, and KSC no longer has LoS to the Mun...
Also, by targeting Kerbin, rather than KSC, or specific sats, you also cover when anything goes out of LoS...

Think of targeting JUST KSC or a single, or even a set of sats, as fine tuning, or really close zooming in.... Once that target moves out of LoS, you lose comms...WHereas targeting Kerbin is like a course tuning, or zooming out... That way EVERYTHING around Kerbin, that falls in or out of the dishes cone will connect, so LoS of single targets is no longer an issue...

Though, I guess targeting KSC, will also include whatever falls into the cone, even though KSC is occluded by Kerbin itself...??

I never experimented to find out... I just stick wth the seemingly easiest solution and catch-all, by targeting Kerbin...

[ToukieToucan]

28 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

Well, I could be wrong, but I imagine if you target KSC, you'll lose comms as Kerbin rotates, and KSC no longer has LoS to the Mun...
Also, by targeting Kerbin, rather than KSC, or specific sats, you also cover when anything goes out of LoS...

Think of targeting JUST KSC or a single, or even a set of sats, as fine tuning, or really close zooming in.... Once that target moves out of LoS, you lose comms...WHereas targeting Kerbin is like a course tuning, or zooming out... That way EVERYTHING around Kerbin, that falls in or out of the dishes cone will connect, so LoS of single targets is no longer an issue...

Though, I guess targeting KSC, will also include whatever falls into the cone, even though KSC is occluded by Kerbin itself...??

I never experimented to find out... I just stick wth the seemingly easiest solution and catch-all, by targeting Kerbin...

So the way I do it now is for example I am between Kerbin and the Mun, and my craft has 3 dishes which target 3 satellites around kerbin (the serenity probes in my case). Each serenity satellite targets a LKO satellite group (solidarity in my case) though there are 4 solidarity probes and 3 Serenity probes the Solidarity will link down one till it reaches the KSC.

So if my craft between the mun and Kerbin targets all 3 serenity probes I will always have connection with the following 'line' connection

Active Vessel -> Serenity 1,2,3 -> Solidarity 1,2,3 -> KSC

                       -> Serenity 1,2,3 -> Solidarity 1,2,3 -> Solidarity 4 -> KSC

3 antennas on the vessel you want to send to the Mun are needed for a stable connection for this model.

 

So far I understand what the Kerbin as target (for the dish/antenna) is doing is looking for the nearest satellite (please correct me if I'm wrong).

So the 'line' of connection would look like this:

 

Active Vessel -> Any available Serenity -> Solidarity 1,2,3 -> KSC

                                                                                             -> Solidarity 4 -> KSC

                       -> Solidarity if available -> KSC

                                                              -> Solidarity 4 -> KSC

Edited January 17, 2016 by ToukieToucan

[Stone Blue]

^^

Yes, either should work...

The first, however, seems overly complicated to me... (requires more dishes/parts)... Moer power generation (batteries/RTGs/Solar panels)...Thus larger and more expensive probes, landers, sats, crafts... Which means larger and more expensive launchers...

The second, the way I suggested, and I think what you have as the 2nd option, is less parts, and less complicated...

So, basically, based on your existing relay networks, and your suggestions, I think you are overthinking this and making it more complicated than it needs to be... Its easy for new RT users to fall into the trap, with all the new "shiny" RT parts, and the endless capabilities and possibilities that RT offers...

I stick to the KISS principal in everything...
KISS = Keep It Simple, Stoopid...
So as far as RT goes, I try to keep it "less is more"....

Edited January 17, 2016 by Stone Blue

[ToukieToucan]

13 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

^^

Yes, either should work...

The first, however, seems overly complicated to me... (requires more dishes/parts)... Moer power generation (batteries/RTGs/Solar panels)...Thus larger and more expensive probes, landers, sats, crafts... Which means larger and more expensive launchers...

The second, the way I suggested, and I think what you have as the 2nd option, is less parts, and less complicated...

So, basically, based on your existing relay networks, and your suggestions, I think you are overthinking this and making it more complicated than it needs to be... Its easy for new RT users to fall into the trap, with all the new "shiny" RT parts, and the endless capabilities and possibilities that RT offers...

I stick to the KISS principal in everything...
KISS = Keep It Simple, Stoopid...
So as far as RT goes, I try to keep it "less is more"....

Right, I kind of thought 3 antennas was over kill (and a lot of batteries for a small probe) but didn't want to risk it, thanks.

Edited January 17, 2016 by ToukieToucan

[Geschosskopf]

1 hour ago, ToukieToucan said:

So which Comms and how many do I need for an unmanned mission to the Mün? Also where should my dishes be pointed at on my Mün lander?

Well, your main problem is that there is no link between the Kerbin and Mun constellations.  This is because the 3rd DTS on the "Serenity" satellites is set for "active vessel".  Which means that if you're flying the lander, "Serenity" will be aimed at it, totally skipping everything in Munar orbit.  This will work as long as the lander is on the near side of Mun, but you'll lose contact on the far side.  The lander can always talk back to Kerbin but this is of limited value if KSC can't talk to the probe.  Your secondary problem is that both "Serenity" and "Day of Night" really would work better if they had 4x DTS antennae each, but you can get by with what you've got.  Just remember this for next time.

So as a quick fix to make things work right now would be to go to each "Serenity" and set its 3rd DTS to aim at Mun itself, not a ship.  This will put Mun and everything around it inside the antennae's cone and establish a permanent, 2-way link betwene the networks at Kerbin and Mun, and both networks provide links everywhere on the surface so you've got that part covered.  The only remaining issue is that then the lander won't be in contact while en route between Kerbin and Mun.  This is only an issue if you need to make a mid-course correction or plan on sending back science from space between Kerbin and Mun.  You can partially solve this by putting a DTS on the lander and having it coned back at Kerbin, so as to talk directly between KSC and the lander.  This will only work, however, if KSC is on the side of Kerbin facing the probe, and can talk most of the way to Mun by itself (a settings and/or tech tree thing IIRC).    But if you don't need science en route or need to make a mid-course burn, then you don't need to worry about this.

Now, if "Serenity" and "Day of Night" had 4x DTS antennae each, you'd have no problems.  It would work like this:

Serenity:

• 2 DTS, 1 each aimed at the other Serenity satellites
• 1 DTS coned at Mun
• 1 DTS set on active vessel

Day of Night

• 2 DTS, 1 each aimed at the other Day of Night satellites
• 1 DTS coned at Kerbin
• 1 DTS set for active vessel

The mutually facing cones of Serenity and Day of Night would establish a permanent, 2-way link between Mun and Kerbin, and the active vessel antennae would stay on the lander while en route, so the lander could cone its own DTS at either Mun or Kerbin and you'd have constant 2-way communications for the whole trip.  Then also have a Comm-16 so the probe can talk back through the Orb of Night while at Mun, and to KSC while in LKO via Solidarity.

 

 

 

 

 

[Snark]

2 hours ago, ToukieToucan said:

Right, I kind of thought 3 antennas was over kill (and a lot of batteries for a small probe) but didn't want to risk it, thanks.

Yes.  This is why the DTS-M1 is so handy for this sort of thing:  it has a nice wide cone.  Put a single DTS-M1 on the lander and point it at Kerbin, and it will automatically connect to anything on or near Kerbin (i.e. within the cone) that is pointing at it.  Makes it much more flexible and robust.

Similarly, any satellites that you have orbiting Kerbin which are pointing at the Mun with their own DTS-M1 antennas should just target the Mun itself, rather than any specific satellite around the Mun.

[ToukieToucan]

2 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Well, your main problem is that there is no link between the Kerbin and Mun constellations.  This is because the 3rd DTS on the "Serenity" satellites is set for "active vessel".  Which means that if you're flying the lander, "Serenity" will be aimed at it, totally skipping everything in Munar orbit.  This will work as long as the lander is on the near side of Mun, but you'll lose contact on the far side.  The lander can always talk back to Kerbin but this is of limited value if KSC can't talk to the probe.  Your secondary problem is that both "Serenity" and "Day of Night" really would work better if they had 4x DTS antennae each, but you can get by with what you've got.  Just remember this for next time.

So as a quick fix to make things work right now would be to go to each "Serenity" and set its 3rd DTS to aim at Mun itself, not a ship.  This will put Mun and everything around it inside the antennae's cone and establish a permanent, 2-way link betwene the networks at Kerbin and Mun, and both networks provide links everywhere on the surface so you've got that part covered.  The only remaining issue is that then the lander won't be in contact while en route between Kerbin and Mun.  This is only an issue if you need to make a mid-course correction or plan on sending back science from space between Kerbin and Mun.  You can partially solve this by putting a DTS on the lander and having it coned back at Kerbin, so as to talk directly between KSC and the lander.  This will only work, however, if KSC is on the side of Kerbin facing the probe, and can talk most of the way to Mun by itself (a settings and/or tech tree thing IIRC).    But if you don't need science en route or need to make a mid-course burn, then you don't need to worry about this.

Now, if "Serenity" and "Day of Night" had 4x DTS antennae each, you'd have no problems.  It would work like this:

Serenity:

• 2 DTS, 1 each aimed at the other Serenity satellites
• 1 DTS coned at Mun
• 1 DTS set on active vessel

Day of Night

• 2 DTS, 1 each aimed at the other Day of Night satellites
• 1 DTS coned at Kerbin
• 1 DTS set for active vessel

The mutually facing cones of Serenity and Day of Night would establish a permanent, 2-way link between Mun and Kerbin, and the active vessel antennae would stay on the lander while en route, so the lander could cone its own DTS at either Mun or Kerbin and you'd have constant 2-way communications for the whole trip.  Then also have a Comm-16 so the probe can talk back through the Orb of Night while at Mun, and to KSC while in LKO via Solidarity.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, if I want do land on Minmus I replace the Mun with Minmus right? 

 

Or should I add a new Relay system?

[Snark]

9 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

Thanks, if I want do land on Minmus I replace the Mun with Minmus right? 

Or should I add a new Relay system?

The fact is, if you're landing on either the Mun or Minmus, you don't need any relay system around those bodies at all, as long as you're landing on the Kerbin-facing side.  Yes, your craft will be "dead" when it's orbiting around the back side of the moon, but that doesn't hurt you any, you'll regain contact as soon as it comes into view.

Just make sure that your lander has a DTS-M1 pointing at Kerbin, and that your near-Kerbin relay network has a few DTS-M1's among various satellites, pointing at the Mun or Minmus as the case may be.

If you need the ability to land somewhere that's not facing Kerbin, then you'd need some sort of relay system around the moon in question.

[RizzoTheRat]

Is there a added transmission delay for every node you route through?  The OP's system of using a LKO network rebroadcasting to a higher altitude network which then broadcasts to the Mun/minimus seems over complicated and if there is a rebroadcast dealy could cause further issues.

I go for a network of 4 satellites in LKO, each with a communotron 16 and two DTS-M1s.  The 16's keep all the satellites in communication with KSC, and then I have one on the DTS-M1's pointing at the Mun and the other at Minimus (could do just 1 but saves me keep swapping them).

The DTS-M1 has a wide enough cone that anything in Mun or Minimus orbit is within the field of view, and the LKO satellites are in the field of view of one orbiting Mun/Minimus and pointing at Kerbin without needing to aim them at specific vessels.

For longer range comms I would usually put a geostationary komsat above the KSC with a long range antenna, and a couple of other geostationries to provide full coverage, but having seen someone elses screenshots of his Communotron 16 based ground network, I'm tempted to have a go at building 2 or 3 ground based long range comms stations that would communicate with the KSC via the existing communotron 16 LKO network. Harder work than satellites because I'll have to fly them to their locations and have enough battery power to run through the night, but I choose to do this (and the other things) not because it's easy, but because it's hard.

[Geschosskopf]

18 hours ago, ToukieToucan said:

Thanks, if I want do land on Minmus I replace the Mun with Minmus right? 

If you want to go to Minmus, you just need a DTS on the probe coned back at Kerbin itself, and have your Serenities either coned at Minmus.  But you can only land on the near side and might have to capture into a retrograde orbit so you can do the capture burn on the near side, too.  Either that or use kOS.  After landing, you can take off into a prograde orbit, however.

You don't really need a network at Minmus because it rotates, so eventually every part of it faces Kerbin.  Your probe just might have to wait a while in orbit for this to happen, though.  Mun, however, is tidelocked so if you want to hit the farside crater biomes, you need a network there.  But if you don't plan on going to the farside craters, there's not much point in building a Mun network.

1 hour ago, RizzoTheRat said:

Is there a added transmission delay for every node you route through?  The OP's system of using a LKO network rebroadcasting to a higher altitude network which then broadcasts to the Mun/minimus seems over complicated and if there is a rebroadcast dealy could cause further issues.

IIRC, signal delay is an option.  If you use it, then you pretty much have to use kOS as well.  If you use kOS, then having full, constant communications is considerably less important.  So it's kind of a pick-your-poison situation.  Either get good at writing kOS scripts or build a lot of satellites.

[RizzoTheRat]

Ah, I assumed signal delay was standard.  I tend to set up manoeuvre nodes and leave it to the RemoteTech autopilot to execute them, which is fine for any tasks except landing, which I've not done with anything unkerballed yet.

[ToukieToucan]

9 minutes ago, RizzoTheRat said:

Ah, I assumed signal delay was standard.  I tend to set up manoeuvre nodes and leave it to the RemoteTech autopilot to execute them, which is fine for any tasks except landing, which I've not done with anything unkerballed yet.

I didn't edit the remotetech files yet so everything should be standard. I like to have 100% coverage so I know I can go anywhere anytime. 

so  going to minmus will basically be the same as the mun satellites (but less messing around: 3 satellites with 1 comm 16 and 1 dts-m1 in a LMO should be good enough to connect with eachother and with Kerbin right? 

Also, which satellites should I send up for probes to reach Duna/ outer planets?

[Snark]

4 hours ago, RizzoTheRat said:

Is there a added transmission delay for every node you route through?  The OP's system of using a LKO network rebroadcasting to a higher altitude network which then broadcasts to the Mun/minimus seems over complicated and if there is a rebroadcast dealy could cause further issues.

If you have lightspeed-delay turned off, then there's never any delay ever.

If you have lightspeed-delay turned on, then there's a signal delay, but it's based only on the total path length-- that is, individual satellites don't have any "rebroadcast" delay.  So routing through multiple satellites does tend to increase the delay, but only because it lengthens the path (you're zigzagging to get to the destination, rather than a straight-line path).

2 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

IIRC, signal delay is an option.  If you use it, then you pretty much have to use kOS as well.

At the Mun, signal delay is almost completely unnoticeable, so no problem there.  On Minmus, the signal delay is big enough to be noticeable and somewhat annoying, but it's still less than a quarter-second and I've found that landers are quite pilotable with that delay (especially in Minmus' forgiving gravity).  The built-in RemoteTech flight computer helps:  you can tell it to "hold surface retrograde", and then the only manual piloting you need to do is to adjust the throttle, which works fine on a 200-millisecond delay.

23 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

I like to have 100% coverage so I know I can go anywhere anytime.

And that's fine, if that's really what you want.  The deal with sub-100% coverage is:  if you can get 90% coverage in only a small fraction of the time and effort that it takes to get 100% coverage-- and even that remaining 10% is available whenever you want it by just waiting a few minutes-- is it really worth it to go to the trouble of setting up a fully 100% coverage network?

Also:  I've noticed that RemoteTech can be prone to crashes, and the crash likelihood goes up significantly as the number of satellite connections in the network increases.  I find that if I keep the network simple, I end up enjoying the game more because I'm only getting one crash per day instead of more than one an hour.  YMMV, just something to bear in mind.

26 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

so  going to minmus will basically be the same as the mun satellites (but less messing around: 3 satellites with 1 comm 16 and 1 dts-m1 in a LMO should be good enough to connect with eachother and with Kerbin right?

Yup, pretty much.  The only real difference is that the Mun is tidally locked and Minmus isn't, so for 50% of the Mun's surface, you don't need any relay network at all.

27 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

Also, which satellites should I send up for probes to reach Duna/ outer planets?

For everything out to and including Duna, the Communotron 88-88 will do you just fine.  (It works sometimes on Dres, too, but only when Kerbin and Dres are relatively close to each other, so not super reliable there.)  This antenna is small and light enough that you can put it on pretty much all of your interplanetary ships (i.e. not just on relay satellites, but on landers too).

Beyond Dres, I like to use the Reflectron GX-128, it'll reach anywhere in the solar system. This one is both bulky and heavy, so you don't want to duplicate it.  Typically what I'll do is send one satellite to the target planet (say, Jool, for example) that has one of these on it, and put that satellite in a very big circular polar orbit so that it's almost never occluded by the planet it's orbiting.  Then, besides the big dish, it has as many smaller dishes as needed (Communotron 88-88 and/or DTS-M1) to tie in to any local relay networks around the planet, or its moons.

So a Jool-Kerbin network would look like this:

• Low-altitude network of Kerbin comsats
• One single satellite in high polar circular orbit of Kerbin, with a single Reflectron GX-128 to talk to Jool, and some DTS-M1 to talk to the low network
• One single satellite in high polar circular orbit of Jool, with a single Reflectron GX-128 to talk to Kerbin, and some Communotron 88-88 to talk to the low network (the DTS-M1 isn't long-range enough within the Jool system)
• Low-altitude networks of comsats around Jool and/or whatever moons I'm interested in, that have small, light, short-range antennas.

 

[ToukieToucan]

1 hour ago, Snark said:

If you have lightspeed-delay turned off, then there's never any delay ever.

If you have lightspeed-delay turned on, then there's a signal delay, but it's based only on the total path length-- that is, individual satellites don't have any "rebroadcast" delay.  So routing through multiple satellites does tend to increase the delay, but only because it lengthens the path (you're zigzagging to get to the destination, rather than a straight-line path).

At the Mun, signal delay is almost completely unnoticeable, so no problem there.  On Minmus, the signal delay is big enough to be noticeable and somewhat annoying, but it's still less than a quarter-second and I've found that landers are quite pilotable with that delay (especially in Minmus' forgiving gravity).  The built-in RemoteTech flight computer helps:  you can tell it to "hold surface retrograde", and then the only manual piloting you need to do is to adjust the throttle, which works fine on a 200-millisecond delay.

And that's fine, if that's really what you want.  The deal with sub-100% coverage is:  if you can get 90% coverage in only a small fraction of the time and effort that it takes to get 100% coverage-- and even that remaining 10% is available whenever you want it by just waiting a few minutes-- is it really worth it to go to the trouble of setting up a fully 100% coverage network?

Also:  I've noticed that RemoteTech can be prone to crashes, and the crash likelihood goes up significantly as the number of satellite connections in the network increases.  I find that if I keep the network simple, I end up enjoying the game more because I'm only getting one crash per day instead of more than one an hour.  YMMV, just something to bear in mind.

Yup, pretty much.  The only real difference is that the Mun is tidally locked and Minmus isn't, so for 50% of the Mun's surface, you don't need any relay network at all.

For everything out to and including Duna, the Communotron 88-88 will do you just fine.  (It works sometimes on Dres, too, but only when Kerbin and Dres are relatively close to each other, so not super reliable there.)  This antenna is small and light enough that you can put it on pretty much all of your interplanetary ships (i.e. not just on relay satellites, but on landers too).

Beyond Dres, I like to use the Reflectron GX-128, it'll reach anywhere in the solar system. This one is both bulky and heavy, so you don't want to duplicate it.  Typically what I'll do is send one satellite to the target planet (say, Jool, for example) that has one of these on it, and put that satellite in a very big circular polar orbit so that it's almost never occluded by the planet it's orbiting.  Then, besides the big dish, it has as many smaller dishes as needed (Communotron 88-88 and/or DTS-M1) to tie in to any local relay networks around the planet, or its moons.

So a Jool-Kerbin network would look like this:

• Low-altitude network of Kerbin comsats
• One single satellite in high polar circular orbit of Kerbin, with a single Reflectron GX-128 to talk to Jool, and some DTS-M1 to talk to the low network
• One single satellite in high polar circular orbit of Jool, with a single Reflectron GX-128 to talk to Kerbin, and some Communotron 88-88 to talk to the low network (the DTS-M1 isn't long-range enough within the Jool system)
• Low-altitude networks of comsats around Jool and/or whatever moons I'm interested in, that have small, light, short-range antennas.

 

I can replace Jool with any other planet right?

And what is considered as a high kerbin orbit?

Also, which satellite can reach every moon of Jool

 

Thanks! 

[Stone Blue]

3 hours ago, ToukieToucan said:

Also, which satellite can reach every moon of Jool

You can use Visual RemoteTech Planner to figure out the best sat design, orbits, number of sats, and which antennas to use, for setting up relays around ANY planetary bodies in KSP.

3 hours ago, ToukieToucan said:

And what is considered as a high kerbin orbit?

Personally, I consider anything higher than KEO as a High Kerbin Orbit...Likewise, anything from KEO below, I consider Low Kerbin Orbit... But thats just my personal interpretation...

Edited January 18, 2016 by Stone Blue

[Snark]

14 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

I can replace Jool with any other planet right?

Well, yes... except that other than Dres (and who bothers to go to Dres anyway?), you don't need that massive Reflectron for anywhere but Jool.  For everything up to and including Duna, the compact, light, physicsless Communotron 88-88 does just fine.

15 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

And what is considered as a high kerbin orbit?

Whatever you like.  The higher it is, the rarer will be the occlusions when your relay satellite can't talk to Jool-or-wherever because it's hiding behind Kerbin.

So in principle, it would be "as high as possible," but frankly I prefer to keep it inside Minmus' orbit (or at least, not too far outside it), so I can use the convenient DTS-M1 and just target Kerbin.  If you go to the outer fringes of Kerbin's SoI, you're outside of the DTS-M1's range and have to go up to a Communotron 88-88, which is narrow-beam so you have to individually target comsats, which complicates everything and makes the system less reliable.

So I'd say, just put it in a polar orbit with a radius of, say, 30,000 km.  That's high enough to avoid Kerbin, low enough that you don't have to worry about blundering into Minmus' SoI and getting your orbit munged.

18 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

Also, which satellite can reach every moon of Jool

Not sure exactly what you mean by that.

If you mean "what antenna do I need to be able to talk from any moon in the Jool system to any other moon in the Jool system or to a relay satellite in high Jool orbit", then the answer is the Communotron 88-88.

If you mean "how do I physically design a satellite with enough fuel, thrust, etc. to visit all the moons of Jool", then that's an entirely separate topic that has nothing to do with RemoteTech and might be worth opening a separate thread.