How salty is Laythe?

[Oddible]

About 9 parts per thousand, because that is the salinity of the tears of the many Kerbals who have been left stranded there.

[fenderzilla]

If Laythe was covered with ammonia, it would be covered in cleaning chemicals! Liquid ammonia is clear, so there's probably something else in the oceans, maybe dissolved cobalt or copper?

like i said, the blue probably isn't caused by a chemical in the oceans - it's a reflection of the oxygen-rich sky. also, because of the oxygen, copper would oxidise and make the oceans green.

[waffelzman]

Isnt laythe 4 Celsius? or did .20/.21 change that?

[stupid_chris]

Isnt laythe 4 Celsius? or did .20/.21 change that?

During the day, yes, but the temperature drops rather low during nighttime.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Laythe isn't that cold.

Also it could have tidally effects because of its Near-Jool-Orbit which are heating it up from the inside.

On second though, I think it is likely that Oceans are quite salty as analog to Earth. But I think there is more behind this moon to have liquid water than just salt.

Also, I was once taught, that water can only obtain a certain level of salt.

What also came to my mind is, that Laythe's Atmosphere contains Oxygen which could lead ýou to the assumption of having life in the Oceans.

Edited July 25, 2013 by MalfunctionM1Ke

[stupid_chris]

Laythe isn't that cold.

In the night, it is that cold.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

In the night, it is that cold.

Seems like i have to do further reasearch

[Benie]

In the night, it is that cold.

Pack thermal underwear before launching. Problem solved.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Pack thermal underwear before launching. Problem solved.

And put the Ion Engine in your sleeping bag when you are done with it

[fenderzilla]

try and read the previous posts before you comment - a lot of these comments say the same thing over and over

[fenderzilla]

wait... water and ammonia? doesn't that mean that laythe's oceans are basically made of pee?

[Brotoro]

Urine is made mostly of water and urea. The ammonia forms later from the breakdown of urea.

[Kidneythump]

If there is microbes in Laythes oceans (see oxygen) shouldn't we assume there are ammonia oxidizing microbes as well? I get the feeling this would collapse the ecosystem rather quickly if the sea was kept liquid by large quantities of ammonia, there must be more to this mystery!

[InfinityArch]

If there is microbes in Laythes oceans (see oxygen) shouldn't we assume there are ammonia oxidizing microbes as well? I get the feeling this would collapse the ecosystem rather quickly if the sea was kept liquid by large quantities of ammonia, there must be more to this mystery!

I would assume either

A. Laythe is going through something akin to the oxygen revolution on Earth with it's environment being gradually altered by the presence of unicellular life.

Or

B. The ecosystem of Laythe is in equilibrium, with ammonia being produced by other organisms as fast as it is consumed.

[fenderzilla]

i've said this many times. don't jump to the conclusion that laythe has life just because there's oxygen.

[Kidneythump]

i've said this many times. don't jump to the conclusion that laythe has life just because there's oxygen.

And yet there are no reactions which result in a large continuous release of oxygen apart from the ones that involve microbes, oxygen is extremely reactive, it won't stay in that form for long. Electrolysis or inorganic superoxides just wont cut it, especially down a gravity well. We know there's oxygen in Europas "atmosphere" but the amount is many many magnitudes lower than what's present on Laythe, you can fly jets there for pete's sake

[InfinityArch]

It's important to note that 6 to -40 Celsius is presumably Laythe's air temperature. On Earth, water temperatures tend to be "equalized" compared to air temperatures; in the arctic oceans, air temperatures may be around -30 while the water is around 0 Celsius. Conversely, at the equator, air temperatures might be around 50 degrees while the water remains a much more comfortable 25 Celsius.

Thus, it's likely that Laythe's oceans are generally in between the two extremes of temperature, though I have no idea how to make an educated estimate at what it would be, and what additional possible compositions that allows for Laythe's oceans.

[Brotoro]

It's important to note that 6 to -40 Celsius is presumably Laythe's air temperature. On Earth, water temperatures tend to be "equalized" compared to air temperatures; in the arctic oceans, air temperatures may be around -30 while the water is around 0 Celsius. Conversely, at the equator, air temperatures might be around 50 degrees while the water remains a much more comfortable 25 Celsius.

Thus, it's likely that Laythe's oceans are generally in between the two extremes of temperature, though I have no idea how to make an educated estimate at what it would be, and what additional possible compositions that allows for Laythe's oceans.

We must also take into account that Laythe's primary heat source is tidal friction, not solar heating, so it is likely that its oceans are warmer than its atmosphere.

Also, Laythe has polar ice caps. The only way you would get polar ice caps is if the relatively small amount of solar heating that Laythe gets is enough to make the difference between ice ( at the poles where the sun is low) and liquid (At lower latitudes where the sun is high).

[Scotius]

Most of the salt content in Earth's oceans was flushed out of rocks in erosion process ( and from underwater volcanic activity ). Laythe's lands are covered in huge amount of sand, which is a product of erosion. So it stands to reason Laythe's oceans contain a lot of minerals (salts) washed from long gone mountains and land masses.

[fenderzilla]

It's important to note that 6 to -40 Celsius is presumably Laythe's air temperature. On Earth, water temperatures tend to be "equalized" compared to air temperatures; in the arctic oceans, air temperatures may be around -30 while the water is around 0 Celsius. Conversely, at the equator, air temperatures might be around 50 degrees while the water remains a much more comfortable 25 Celsius.

Thus, it's likely that Laythe's oceans are generally in between the two extremes of temperature, though I have no idea how to make an educated estimate at what it would be, and what additional possible compositions that allows for Laythe's oceans.

and yet if you submerge a thermometer, it says the same as the air temperature. I guess we can't really say anything until squad makes a more accurate temperature model.

[LaydeeDem]

Most of the salt content in Earth's oceans was flushed out of rocks in erosion process ( and from underwater volcanic activity ). Laythe's lands are covered in huge amount of sand, which is a product of erosion. So it stands to reason Laythe's oceans contain a lot of minerals (salts) washed from long gone mountains and land masses.

Actually, some areas on Laythe are incredibly white. So I'm pretty sure laythe is quite salty.

[tssn1611]

It's important to note that 6 to -40 Celsius is presumably Laythe's air temperature. On Earth, water temperatures tend to be "equalized" compared to air temperatures; in the arctic oceans, air temperatures may be around -30 while the water is around 0 Celsius. Conversely, at the equator, air temperatures might be around 50 degrees while the water remains a much more comfortable 25 Celsius.

Thus, it's likely that Laythe's oceans are generally in between the two extremes of temperature, though I have no idea how to make an educated estimate at what it would be, and what additional possible compositions that allows for Laythe's oceans.

Well, you're right that water provides a strong moderating influence on local temperature. However, the air temperature over the water on Earth is usually a lot closer to the water temperature than that, assuming it's liquid and not solid in the case of the arctic. Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (3 N) has average highs of 32-33 C year-round, and Reykjavik, Iceland (64 N) is surprisingly balmy in the winter (average lows just below 0 C). Furthermore, Quito, Ecuador and Kuala Lumpur are both near the equator and near the ocean, but Quito's highs are consistently about 20 C. Why? Quito's temperature is being influenced by the cooler south Pacific current, whereas Kuala Lumpur's temperature is influenced more by equatorial ocean currents that are much warmer.

As for water laced with ammonia, the primary reason for water's moderating influence is its heat capacity. If I've done my math right, ammonia has a slightly higher heat capacity than water does, so oceans of water and ammonia should have slightly more of a moderating influence on temperature than just water. Conclusion: Laythe's ocean temperatures and near-sea-level air temperatures are probably pretty close overall.

Also, if the diurnal temperature range on Laythe is 6 C to -40 C, that seems pretty large for a planet that's mostly water and ammonia. On Earth, the diurnal range for coastal cities is usually not more than about 8-10 C. Is there an elevation component to the temperature readings in KSP? Because being on a mountain seems much more likely to be the cause of -40 C readings than being on the night side of the planet.

Edited July 31, 2013 by tssn1611

[Jesrad]

like i said, the blue probably isn't caused by a chemical in the oceans - it's a reflection of the oxygen-rich sky. also, because of the oxygen, copper would oxidise and make the oceans green.

Err, no. The sky is blue because of Rayleigh scattering, not because it contains oxygen (which is actually on the greenish side, see below its spectrograph pattern:)

Sky's blue also on many many other solid bodies everywhere in the Universe, for the same reason. Would Mars have less dust suspended in its air its sky would be deep blue too (in fact it is blue on especially calm days, BTW):

Laythe receives 3.9% the illumination that Kerbin receives.

But the fact that it has a quite thick atmosphere (with 80% the surface pressure of Kerbin) can mean it has a substantial greenhouse effect, especially if it contains a sizable fraction of carbon dioxide. And this greenhouse effect will help trap its heat no matter what the source of that heat is (be it energy from the sun or energy released from tidal friction within, working its way out). Either way the heat gets radiated from the surface as infrared, and the greenhouse effect makes it harder for the heat to escape.

Because of the small distance scale of the Joolian system, tidal forces are much greater for Laythe than they are for the Jovian moons in our solar system. We should not be surprised if Laythe is warm...we should be surprised if it is cold. And the argument that this energy is released in the interior of Laythe does not hold water...it still has to work its way out and be radiated into space to cool Laythe...it can't just disappear inside.

The observed fact that Laythe has polar caps tells us that the energy it receives from Kerbol is enough to push much of its surface above the freezing temperature of the liquid in the oceans (since the relative lack of heat from the sun at high latitudes is why the poles are colder than the equator). The simplest explanation for the oceans is still that they are mainly water (albeit with some additional mix of salts and/or ammonia).

Yay Science

Jool, just like Jupiter, is massive, and Laythe being so close means a MASSIVE tidal heating effect. Just for comparison, the moon Io gets so heated by tidal deformation from Jupiter that it has the highest volcanic activity of anything in the Solar system we know of. If Laythe is lacking anything it's lots moar volcanoes... unless they're all hidden underwater... So, salty oceans... with lots of nasty other things in them, like sulfuric acid

Also, the tidal deformation is maximum at the equator, minimal at the poles, so the heating likely follows this distribution too, so solar heating may not be the only factor in the formation of the polar ice of Laythe. This is why I think the +6 / -40 atmospheric diurnal range is way exaggerated, since Kerbol is otherwise contributing so little to Laythe's climate.

[Littlelion]

Hi! I have an idea, sorry for my English my science knolage is pretty low so I don't know if is correct but:

maybe Laythe's ocean is like Kerbin's one, but they are a lot of underwater volcanic activitys that keep the temperature of the water enough warm to no become ice.

[Themohawkninja]

Seeing as Laythe is filled with sand, what are the chances that that sand is very salt heavy if not salt based? Common table salt (to which I assume is the salt referred to by the OP) is made up of hydrogen and chlorine. The former is the most abundant in the universe, and the latter is only 17 on the table, which is well below the limit for the cores of stars, which is iron (27), so I would assume that chlorine is also quite abundant in the universe.

Now the question becomes, how hard is it to get hydrogen and chlorine to combine. It's extremely plentiful on Earth, and scientists speculate that Europa has a very salty ocean. You combine this fact with the fact that Laythe is Nova's idea of putting Europa in Io's position, than I think that we have a very salty Joolean moon out there.