[1.1.2] Kerbal Attachment System (KAS) 0.5.8

[mesterbenji]

I'm struggling with timewarp breaking my ground pylons loose from the planetary surface atm, why does this happen and can it be fixed?

 

I'm on 1.1.2 and using USI and KIS KAS exclussively.

Edited May 19, 2016 by mesterbenji

[IgorZ]

7 hours ago, mesterbenji said:

I'm struggling with timewarp breaking my ground pylons loose from the planetary surface atm, why does this happen and can it be fixed?

 

I'm on 1.1.2 and using USI and KIS KAS exclussively.

It happens due to greater errors in physics calculation in warp mode. It's a known KSP issue which cannot be resolved from the mod. Objects with greater length are more affected, and usual ground base is a rather lengthily object (if you measure it between the two most distant pylons). One of the ways to reduce the impact is to attach to the ground only one pylon, and leave the others just laying on the surface. Will work fine if you only need pylons to extend connections.

I'm working on a flexible connection part which may solve this issue in the future. Though, it's at prototype stage for now and there is no ETA.

Edited May 19, 2016 by IgorZ

[Tekener]

Hi, I'm having an issue with the Winch IW-50 in combination with the CC-R2 Connector Port.

I have an ore mining and fuel refinery on Ike. I landet next to it like I used to do in 1.0.5, EVAed, run over the Winch, grabbed the connector, pulled it over to my lander's connecting port and connected it as docked. All fine and fuel got transfered just like always.

When I unpluged the connector the hose instantly started to lash about and couldn't got grabbed anymore. When I started to retract it at the Winch it worked well - until the connector hit one of the landing struts: instand explosion, strut and connector/hose destroyed, vessel tilt over to the surface and exploded as well, killing Bob Kerman and destroying the lander  

Reloaded the savegame and tried several times, always with the same result. I can't get the connector unpluged without going crazy and destroying things.

in 1.0.5 it worked perfectly.

What can I do now?

[IgorZ]

2 hours ago, Tekener said:

Hi, I'm having an issue with the Winch IW-50 in combination with the CC-R2 Connector Port.

I have an ore mining and fuel refinery on Ike. I landet next to it like I used to do in 1.0.5, EVAed, run over the Winch, grabbed the connector, pulled it over to my lander's connecting port and connected it as docked. All fine and fuel got transfered just like always.

When I unpluged the connector the hose instantly started to lash about and couldn't got grabbed anymore. When I started to retract it at the Winch it worked well - until the connector hit one of the landing struts: instand explosion, strut and connector/hose destroyed, vessel tilt over to the surface and exploded as well, killing Bob Kerman and destroying the lander  

Reloaded the savegame and tried several times, always with the same result. I can't get the connector unpluged without going crazy and destroying things.

in 1.0.5 it worked perfectly.

What can I do now?

Any non-stock mods? If you only have couple I could try debugging your save file in my testing env.

[mesterbenji]

14 hours ago, IgorZ said:

It happens due to greater errors in physics calculation in warp mode. It's a known KSP issue which cannot be resolved from the mod. Objects with greater length are more affected, and usual ground base is a rather lengthily object (if you measure it between the two most distant pylons). One of the ways to reduce the impact is to attach to the ground only one pylon, and leave the others just laying on the surface. Will work fine if you only need pylons to extend connections.

I'm working on a flexible connection part which may solve this issue in the future. Though, it's at prototype stage for now and there is no ETA.

That sounds fantastic :D, thanks for great help ^^, would leaving unbreakable joints on for now do the trick? I've tryed all the time warp settings after slapping it on and appart from my base slightly raising or lowering at the start of the time warp i haven't seen any issues, really excited to see what comes of your mod project sounds like it could be a game changer for base building :D!

[IgorZ]

19 hours ago, Tekener said:

Hi, I'm having an issue with the Winch IW-50 in combination with the CC-R2 Connector Port.

I have an ore mining and fuel refinery on Ike. I landet next to it like I used to do in 1.0.5, EVAed, run over the Winch, grabbed the connector, pulled it over to my lander's connecting port and connected it as docked. All fine and fuel got transfered just like always.

When I unpluged the connector the hose instantly started to lash about and couldn't got grabbed anymore. When I started to retract it at the Winch it worked well - until the connector hit one of the landing struts: instand explosion, strut and connector/hose destroyed, vessel tilt over to the surface and exploded as well, killing Bob Kerman and destroying the lander  

Reloaded the savegame and tried several times, always with the same result. I can't get the connector unpluged without going crazy and destroying things.

in 1.0.5 it worked perfectly.

What can I do now?

Better physics in 1.1 sometimes makes life worse. Could you make a video to demonstrate this issue? Usually unplugged connector have only minor oscillation which can be fixed by retracting. Looks like in your case there is another factor that makes this situation uncontrollable.

10 hours ago, mesterbenji said:

That sounds fantastic :D, thanks for great help ^^, would leaving unbreakable joints on for now do the trick? I've tryed all the time warp settings after slapping it on and appart from my base slightly raising or lowering at the start of the time warp i haven't seen any issues, really excited to see what comes of your mod project sounds like it could be a game changer for base building :D!

Unbreakable joints will help in most cases. Though, sometimes you may witness a really weird things like flying your base in the sky on the low gravity planets. Main problem here is accumulating structural stress that becomes worse with increasing time warp. Unbreakable joints don't fix this issue, and who knows how it can hit you.

[Tekener]

20 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Any non-stock mods? If you only have couple I could try debugging your save file in my testing env.

Not much at all that would have an influence. Nearly all mods are for visual and helping mods. 

Only mods with real effects would be BZ-1 Radial Attachement Point, Kerbal Joint Reinforcements, TweakScale, KAS, and KIS.
Will try to get that savegame "cleaned up" by removing unecessary vessels and also disabling mods to make it as simple as possible to reproduce it.

[IgorZ]

1 hour ago, Tekener said:

Not much at all that would have an influence. Nearly all mods are for visual and helping mods. 

Only mods with real effects would be BZ-1 Radial Attachement Point, Kerbal Joint Reinforcements, TweakScale, KAS, and KIS.
Will try to get that savegame "cleaned up" by removing unecessary vessels and also disabling mods to make it as simple as possible to reproduce it.

I'd suggest starting disabling mods from KJS and TweakScale. First one affects joints' strength which may increase side effects on parts separation. Second one is known to cause troubles to KIS.

[Tekener]

9 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

I'd suggest starting disabling mods from KJS and TweakScale. First one affects joints' strength which may increase side effects on parts separation. Second one is known to cause troubles to KIS.

Ok, even with all mods except KAS removed it is happening. 

I made a video of the effect (sorry for the bad quality).

I also uploaded cleaned savegames using KAS and TweakScale as well as using only KAS.
The KAS only savegame will let you unplug the connector and see it swirling crazy around, but you can't retract it since un-TweakScaled parts are blocking the winch.
The KAS & TweakScale savegame will let you unplug and retract the connector, this is also where my video is from. It turned out that the fatal outcome only happens once in a while, when the connector exactly hits a landing strut feet. Had to try a few times to reproduce the outcome from yesterday.

[SciMan]

Have you made sure the winch has some slack on it before you disconnect it?

If there's tension on the cable and you disconnect it, it's like releasing a spring. This can easily cause the end of the cable to whip around.
The end of the winch cable will be destroyed if it's going faster than 8 m/s when it hits something.
A landing strut will be destroyed when it hits something going faster than 12m/s.
If the end of the winch cable is going faster than 12m/s when it hits a landing strut, both should be destroyed by the impact.

Bottom line: Make sure the winch cable has some slack in it before you disconnect it, unless you wanted to make a slingshot that doesn't use gravity.

Of course if there was no tension on the winch cable, and the cable is going nuts as soon as it runs out of slack, that's a bug. Otherwise, it's just physics working exactly as it would in real life.

 

Edited May 21, 2016 by SciMan
video for example

[IgorZ]

5 hours ago, Tekener said:

Ok, even with all mods except KAS removed it is happening. 

I made a video of the effect (sorry for the bad quality).

I also uploaded cleaned savegames using KAS and TweakScale as well as using only KAS.
The KAS only savegame will let you unplug the connector and see it swirling crazy around, but you can't retract it since un-TweakScaled parts are blocking the winch.
The KAS & TweakScale savegame will let you unplug and retract the connector, this is also where my video is from. It turned out that the fatal outcome only happens once in a while, when the connector exactly hits a landing strut feet. Had to try a few times to reproduce the outcome from yesterday.

Could you please do a search in the game folder (starting from the game's root, not the plugins folder) for files: "KIS.dll" and "KAS.dll". What is the result?

[mesterbenji]

11 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Better physics in 1.1 sometimes makes life worse. Could you make a video to demonstrate this issue? Usually unplugged connector have only minor oscillation which can be fixed by retracting. Looks like in your case there is another factor that makes this situation uncontrollable.

Unbreakable joints will help in most cases. Though, sometimes you may witness a really weird things like flying your base in the sky on the low gravity planets. Main problem here is accumulating structural stress that becomes worse with increasing time warp. Unbreakable joints don't fix this issue, and who knows how it can hit you.

The sky problem was the exact thing I was struggling with and I fixed it mostly just by widening my base out and making sure to utilise as few landing legs as at all possible after having noticed that its the landing legs clipping through the ground during timewarps that cause you to be ejected into the sky basically, that and kerbal joint reinforcement which eases the transition from timewarp to non time warp by slowly re applying all the stats like gravity

[Tekener]

5 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Could you please do a search in the game folder (starting from the game's root, not the plugins folder) for files: "KIS.dll" and "KAS.dll". What is the result?

Searching from the root dir "Kerbal Space Program" with the removed mods of the test I provided reveals no KIS.dll and one KAS.dll in "Kerbal Space Program\GameData\KAS\Plugins", version 0.5.7.0 for KSP 1.1

[IgorZ]

7 hours ago, Tekener said:

Searching from the root dir "Kerbal Space Program" with the removed mods of the test I provided reveals no KIS.dll and one KAS.dll in "Kerbal Space Program\GameData\KAS\Plugins", version 0.5.7.0 for KSP 1.1

Ok, then there is just one last option: clean reinstall of the game and the mods. Don't copy mods folders into the new game, install them from the scratch via CKAN or from the release archives. The problem I see in the video looks familiar. Did you notice that cable behaves against the gravity? It's something about game settings, and it usually happens when game has two copies of KAS. In one case reinstalling of KAS solved the issue.

Edited May 21, 2016 by IgorZ

[Tekener]

2 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Ok, then there is just one last option: clean reinstall of the game and the mods. Don't copy mods folders into the new game, install them from the scratch via CKAN or from the release archives. The problem I see in the video looks familiar. Did you notice that cable behaves against the gravity? It's something about game settings, and it usually happens when game has two copies of KAS. In one case reinstalling of KAS solved the issue.

Roger that:

- "Kerbal Space Program" deleted
- "Repair Files" on Steam used to get a clean fresh installation
- 2,640 Files with 4,621,037,925 Bytes received (KPS v1.1.2.1260)
- "ckan.exe" only copied over and started it
- "KAS 0.5.7" and "Module Manager 2.6.25" installed via CKAN
- copied the provided savegame from "save_kas.zip" into a fresh created savegame directory
- started KSP.exe 32 bit (windowed mode, all default)
- touched no settings at all, used full stock default settings, directly started the copied savegame
- "Unpluged" the connector
- it instandtly tilted around like crazy and even pulled the Ore Extractor to the ground while the cable was still swirling around:


Continued testing:
- installed "TweakScale" via CKAN
- copied the savegame from "save_kas_tweakscale.zip" into a fresh created savegame directory
- started unaltered KSP.exe 32 bit and loaded the savegame
- unplugged the connector again, same result: swirling around uncontrolled
- when retracted it could hit a landing strut (happend after 3 tries) and exploded like in the video

After all what I have tried the result is always the same.
Would you mind to do the exact steps as I did and tell me if you get the same result?

Thanks!

Edited May 22, 2016 by Tekener
Continued testing

[IgorZ]

23 hours ago, Tekener said:

Roger that:

- "Kerbal Space Program" deleted
- "Repair Files" on Steam used to get a clean fresh installation
- 2,640 Files with 4,621,037,925 Bytes received (KPS v1.1.2.1260)
- "ckan.exe" only copied over and started it
- "KAS 0.5.7" and "Module Manager 2.6.25" installed via CKAN
- copied the provided savegame from "save_kas.zip" into a fresh created savegame directory
- started KSP.exe 32 bit (windowed mode, all default)
- touched no settings at all, used full stock default settings, directly started the copied savegame
- "Unpluged" the connector
- it instandtly tilted around like crazy and even pulled the Ore Extractor to the ground while the cable was still swirling around:


Continued testing:
- installed "TweakScale" via CKAN
- copied the savegame from "save_kas_tweakscale.zip" into a fresh created savegame directory
- started unaltered KSP.exe 32 bit and loaded the savegame
- unplugged the connector again, same result: swirling around uncontrolled
- when retracted it could hit a landing strut (happend after 3 tries) and exploded like in the video

After all what I have tried the result is always the same.
Would you mind to do the exact steps as I did and tell me if you get the same result?

Thanks!

Yeah, I was able to reproduce it. Physics on the winch head is badly broken. No ideas for now why is it happening.

[Tekener]

29 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

Yeah, I was able to reproduce it. Physics on the winch head is badly broken. No ideas for now why is it happening.

I'm glad you see the same effect, was already getting worried, but of course I'm not glad that it is happening at all ... 

I hope you'll have a good idea to be able to fix it soon! 

[Tekener]

On 21.5.2016 at 5:56 AM, SciMan said:

Have you made sure the winch has some slack on it before you disconnect it?

If there's tension on the cable and you disconnect it, it's like releasing a spring. This can easily cause the end of the cable to whip around.
The end of the winch cable will be destroyed if it's going faster than 8 m/s when it hits something.
A landing strut will be destroyed when it hits something going faster than 12m/s.
If the end of the winch cable is going faster than 12m/s when it hits a landing strut, both should be destroyed by the impact.

Bottom line: Make sure the winch cable has some slack in it before you disconnect it, unless you wanted to make a slingshot that doesn't use gravity.

Of course if there was no tension on the winch cable, and the cable is going nuts as soon as it runs out of slack, that's a bug. Otherwise, it's just physics working exactly as it would in real life.

Sorry, forgot to reply to you

Yes, I did. I even tried extending the cable from the winch by another 10 meters, but except the length counter it didn't cahnged anything. The cable goes nuts right when you unplug it, even when being much more extended than necessary, and not when it runs out of slack.

[IgorZ]

2 hours ago, Tekener said:

I'm glad you see the same effect, was already getting worried, but of course I'm not glad that it is happening at all ... 

I hope you'll have a good idea to be able to fix it soon! 

Try this patched KAS binary. It worked for me but I tend to think it's a kind of intermittent problem which is yet to be found and properly fixed.

[curiousepic]

Can Kerbals in Command Seats operate tools and attach things (yet)? Hoping to use an IR arm to do construction without messing with the... infernal EVA movement system.

[IgorZ]

3 hours ago, curiousepic said:

Can Kerbals in Command Seats operate tools and attach things (yet)? Hoping to use an IR arm to do construction without messing with the... infernal EVA movement system.

Nope. Kerbal in command seat is not actually a kerbal. From the game's perspective it's just a model, and all controls are attached to the vessel.

[Tekener]

22 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Try this patched KAS binary. It worked for me but I tend to think it's a kind of intermittent problem which is yet to be found and properly fixed.

Holy ... it's working like it used to do! When using "Unplug" the connector just falls to the ground instead of going crazy. Thanks so much!

I'll test the dll to see if any other issues arise from it. If not, I would guess it's a good intermediate fix until you found the real cause and fix it.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Tekener

[IgorZ]

41 minutes ago, Tekener said:

Holy ... it's working like it used to do! When using "Unplug" the connector just falls to the ground instead of going crazy. Thanks so much!

I'll test the dll to see if any other issues arise from it. If not, I would guess it's a good intermediate fix until you found the real cause and fix it.

Cool. At least some consistency. Please, let me know if you find issues with this patch. I don't use winches so, cannot do good testing. Meanwhile, I'll try to figure out why does this change actually fix the problem.

[SteveD80]

Instability Issue:

I have been building a mining outpost on Minmus.  I landed the various modules with plans to connect them with KAS fuel lines.  Some of the parts are a bit far away and so I walked until my pipe turned red, backed up and dropped a CB1 Ground Base attached a couple of fuel attachments to it and continued on.  I think my longest line had 6 CB1 Ground Bases.  I turned on my drills and ISRU's and left to get the next module.  When I tried to land half the base exploded.  So I was wondering if there is anything I can do to make it more stable; preferably without rearranging my modules.

[_Astra_]

 

I tried using a grapple without any winch.

 

The grapple hooked perfectly but lost immediately on target rotation. The target was an empty orange tank.

[LOG 20:57:01.112] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:57:01.129] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:57:02.397] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:57:04.533] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:57:05.600] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:57:25.884] Camera Mode: FREE
[LOG 20:57:32.022] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:57:55.808] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:57:56.176] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:58:43.132] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:59:40.481] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Set collision mode back to Discrete on: KAS.Hook.GrapplingHook (Part)
[LOG 20:59:40.481] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - grappleAttachOnPart=true
[LOG 20:59:40.482] [KAS] AttachOnCollision - Attaching to part : Rockomax Jumbo-64 Fuel Tank
[LOG 20:59:40.482] [KAS] AttachFixed(Core) Create fixed joint on HG-02 Grappling Hook with Rockomax Jumbo-64 Fuel Tank
[WRN 20:59:52.531] [KAS] OnJointBreak(Core) A joint broken on HG-02 Grappling Hook !, force: 28.48732
[WRN 20:59:52.531] [KAS] OnJointBreak(Core) A joint broken on HG-02 Grappling Hook !, force: 28.48732

 

Say please what's wrong?

The maximum collision speed is specified (120 m/s) but there's no information on maximum force allowed.