WanderingKid

I have, often. I typically start collecting up Duna Satellite contracts long before I ever depart Kerbin SOI as 3* contracts. I believe they'll start spawning as soon as you visit Solar SOI, such as when you Tour Bus for experience, but I don't have proof of that being the cause, just a likely suspect and my observations. @bewing True enough, but as far as I can tell there's no 'cause' for those contracts to increase/decrease in difficulty, at least not that's obvious. Once you have that style of contract, you can get any of the variances as far as I've been able to tell once you reach some reputation level (I assume that's the trigger).

The answer to this is a bit horizontal. It depends on what you consider more difficult. For example, getting to a Mun flyby with low-grade parts and no upgrades to your center is a lot more difficult than driving a rover around... depending on your skill levels. Now, as to how do missions vary, there's a question we can answer. Most newer missions types depend on unlocks to equipment and if you've contacted the SOI of a particular body. For example, you typically won't get Minmus missions (except for world's firsts) until you've contacted Minmus. Now, Duna will eventually start coughing up some satellite contracts before you get there, but that's out of the norm. Additionally, the contracts system will start to phase out contracts that you keep letting expire in preference to contracts you take, so if you start avoiding rover contracts on Mun, you'll stop seeing Rover contracts period eventually, though the rare one may pop up. Game Time has no effect on contract offers other than that contracts expire after a certain time and cycle out for a replacement. Hours played has no effect at all.

For anyone curious, I've scrubbed the intent of the mission, though the conversation and exercise has been fun. To pull off the mission I was building this for, which was to get to Duna and back safely before the normal Hohmann transfer window, the dV requirements are in the 15-18k range at a minimum. It's 7-9k just to get a severely early arrival (<120 days), another 2-3k (minimum) braking in Duna SOI for a vector inversion via gravity (so you're not flying off into interstellar space), and from there it just gets awkward. Returning to Kerbin in a timely manner is actually the hardest part of the pinball game, and can cost you a fortune. That's a seriously awkward contract to perform.

So I've a question for some of the more nuanced players who swear by Vernor Engines over the RCS thruster blocks. I personally typically use them as secondary controls during very heavy launches to keep things aimed where I want them, and after that I ignore them. For those of you who typically only use Vernors, how do you place your engines for front/back translation during docking maneuvers? Assuming your docking port isn't on your nose, as mine is typically strapped to the side somewhere, it's not simply a matter of using your engines as you need to brake in fine increments as you line up, so without some very unique attachments (like strapping some I-Beams on at awkward angles), I'm wondering how it's done? Words are good, pictures would be awesome! Thanks in advance.

I'll bite... What's an FL-N Core? It's not a tank, an engine, or a probe that I can see. I dug around a bit but can't seem to find one and Google-Fu dost fail me now. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To gentle the "It won't launch" concerns, I'm going to update the first post with a different example with my staging correct. That should kill the distractions. I hadn't been overly concerned about it at first... sorry this got a bit derailed there if anyone was enjoying this. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @Streetwind I like your idea of using the antenna and the solar panels in an array that balances each other off, that's pretty neat. Unfortunately at tech two, you'd need two of the DTS-M1s unless you've got a relay sat network already set up. I have managed to get a ship up to 12,909 d/v with this discussion, with my quality of life improvements installed (some extra SaS modules, enough antenna, etc...) so so far it's been a good conversation, at least for me. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One thing I've found however, when trying to abuse second and third stage Fuel to Payload ratios is there's a point ~5 tons of fuel where you'll want to switch over to the 1.25m tanks, even if you're using a spark, just for part count and anti-wobble. Have others found that to be the case, or has most of this conversation been theoretical and not practical for those involved?

D/L Chatterer, and there's a folder set with all the sound files Chatterer uses. I had to convert them for my NLE to use them but with Audacity it wasn't too long to do.

I love the design... I'd HATE to have to refuel that. I think that's what leans me away from a lot of nice looking lander designs using Oscars and Toroidal tanks.

Apologies, many of you are treating this as a "fix my ship" discussion... which wasn't my intent. I simply showed the ship as an example of what I was talking about. @KerikBalm and @Wanderfound, Anything in the tier 2 (Level 7 and down) that isn't a nuke is considered fair game for this discussion. It's more a "What have you played with via career" kind of thing. @Snark Yes I do. @Streetwind How did you squeak out the extra 800 d/v? I know I'm running a tad top-heavy to keep my stuff from having issues during re-entry as well as I wanted extra SaS for orbital maneuvers (moves like a drunken elephant otherwise), but even stripping those was only getting me 200-300 d/v. Is it the toroidal tanks that seems to have done it?

So, I've been building a series of different whip probes, and was wondering what kind of results other folks get from this style. This probe's purpose is to leave at bad transfer times, "Whip" around another SOI for a flyby contract (without orbiting), then get itself shot home ASAP. To do this, I'm aiming for triple, if not quadruple, the standard dV necessary for the transfer, and I want solid TWR (0.4+)so that the burns can be made with reasonable accuracy and not having to 'wind up' an orbit. The best I've been able to fit into my 140 ton limit (255 parts, but I don't even get near that) has been between 11,500 - 11,800 m/s d/V at launch if I want decent takeoff TWR. Here's one variant with some of the staging a bit off (I've been goofing around since then): EDIT: Due to some confusion as to the purpose of my original image, this is one that has its staging correct and works as an example instead of a stripped down version showing most of the parts in play. It runs at 12,909 d/v on the pad and hits orbit with about 9,700 d/v left after ditching the mainsail and finishing its burn on the Terriers. There's an entire array of Oscars, Ants, science gear, antenna, and other stuff inside the fairing. Now, I realize Nukes change the landscape completely, but I was wondering who else had come up with purposely over-engineered vessels like this with limited tech so we can compare notes.

To answer the general question, which has been answered well and often already, rovers are the most efficient yet slowest, and a rocket bouncer needs to be minimal to get things done cheaply. Then again, even in Hard career, cheaply isn't my biggest priority, it's efficiency for the Funds spent, both in my personal time as well as game time. So, here's my approach: By the time I go to Minmus I've usually strip mined the science off Mun, personally, so my tech tree is typically a little more advanced than yours. That takes some refuelers and a biome-hopper there as well. However, this little bounce-a-bout will grab all, if not most, of the biomes off Minmus with little concerns. A single refueler and you can hit everything comfortably. It carries a little over 2,000 d/v on itself. It's a two seater for pilot+scientist. It costs ~51k to put up in hard career, and launches with over 7,000 d/v. Here's my current launcher for it: Now, for refueling, you'll want something relatively cheap. This is a 4 ton fuel payload refueler I've been using lately. Aerospace designs would of course reduce the price of this, but I don't want to spend 15-20 minutes putting it up. It's 22k of completely disposable craft meant to get to anything in orbit in Kerbin SOI and deliver some fuel for small ships. One of the bigger things I've found when going for an efficient biome hopper on Minmus is not just what lander you bring though, but your flight plan. You'll want to conserve d/v for your hops as much as possible. A trip between flats is nearly as expensive as getting all the way to orbital speed for a rocket hopper. Because of that, you want to minimize the bounces. My typical way of doing that is the following flight plan, starting in the Greater Flats: So I land in the Greater Flats near equatorial, then proceed to bounce up the hill to the east. The closer I get to the edge of the flats, the cheaper my lowlands pickup will be. Then I head up the hill, and grab midlands/highlands right next to each other. This is a lot easier with KER telling me what Biome I'm over. Finally, going up that hill there's a saddle between two regions of highland I can brake in and grab slopes without wandering down the side of a cliff as well. From there, it's simply a bounce to the Lesser flats, up to the poles (and then over), over to the Great flats, and finally to an easy to hit sections of the flats. There is a tiny sliver of flats between the Saddle and the Lesser Flats, but it's annoying to hit and it's far enough out that you're only saving a bit of d/v to go there, land, and take off again for an annoying target. EDIT: One thing not mentioned is where to spend your science. Get the seismic accelerometer (bottom line on the tree). It's the last generic science gathering part you're going to get before you get to tier 3 science and is worth it for the additional science points for minimal component.

My guess is you didn't center the kickbacks onto the staging component. So, they're probably actually attached to the liquid tanks directly. One of the things I've found is you have to make sure where you've grabbed the SRB (where your mouse is) you need to make sure it's on top of the decoupler. The way to really make sure it's attached is once you've hooked the SRB on, grab the decoupler, and if they both come off at once, you're hooked up right and you just need to make sure the staging is straight. If you only get a decoupler on your mouse key, you're not hooked on right. So, check your model in the hangar, and then if you're still having trouble, can you post a screenshot with your staging?

Fair enough. That's twice this week you've helped keep me from leaving my foot in my mouth. Thank you. I'm really trying not to. This has been a bad week for me trying to 'help', I see. I'd honestly thought that a chunk of the dV effect had to do with the energy transfer due to other items (besides that one math post I dragged along for the ride) that I'd read before. Note to self: Get away from the math papers and go figure out the physics ones. I've wrapped my brain around the wrong ideas and need to dislodge those.

I would agree with @Raideur Ng here. The drag losses you encounter above 50km are minimal. The extra 5-10k height for your orbit is also reasonably minimal. However, as to your concern with larger space stations with weird/aggressive drag, my usual approach is less of a 'go for a higher orbit' than a 'bend harder at 30km where there's less atmo'. Usually runs me ~200-500 d/v more for the technique (I don't MechJeb, so nothing's perfect) but it gets it done with a minimum of fuss. There are no easy tools for determining the Oberth effect, but this article definitely helps to let you understand what's going on: http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/01/q-how-does-the-oberth-effect-work-and-where-does-the-extra-energy-come-from-why-is-it-better-for-a-rocket-to-fire-at-the-lowest-point-in-its-orbit/ It all comes down to exhaust velocity vs. speed of the rocket and how much energy is left behind in the propellant vs. how much is transferred to the rocket. I'm not sure KSP mimics this entirely, nor am I good enough to truly break apart the math underlying it, but this person does a great job explaining it in layman's terms. EDIT: Doing a crossout (but not removing because it's referenced below) as the information is not helpful in understanding Oberth, as I thought it was originally.

Rock on, thanks @KerikBalm! I'd no idea about that. My tour bus system just got a lot less tedious.

Wut? Before I send up a ship with this as a fact, is there any reference to this occurring? This would be most awesome.

Thanks for dropping in! A question that's been bugging me for ages. Why is rendezvous/dock at (x) less important than flyby at (y) yet more important than land at (y)? In particular, dock at Mun always seems to drop in between flyby Minmus and Orbit Minmus. Drives me BUGGY! If you happen to know offhand and can explain what seems to be an odd choice of priorities to me, that would help me not want to throttle the career mode sometimes.

You're correct, I was wrong. Sorry about that. I misunderstood something when I read it in the wiki, and never tested it directly. I'll step aside now, as others (such as Snark) are dead on and involved.

But, my lab looks really cool...

It's only unbalanced if you time warp the heck out of it. Which, comparatively, what's the difference between timewarping an MPL and timewarping your way to Duna? Otherwise, it's a heck of a lot of investment for eventual returns. I'm okay with that.

Well, you kind of can with radial/anti-radial, but I was trying to keep it simple.

Short answer: no. It depends on where the experiments come from, if they are in orbit or landed, and a few other factors. But, in general, no. There are multipliers for location and where the experiment comes from which aren't listed in the wiki. Edit: This is incorrect. See Streetwind below for correct answers.

There's a few factors you have to understand about the MPL and it'll finally click. First you have to understand data generation. The physical location of the lab decides how much data you get per experiment it converts. So, for your case of converting experiments, you want to convert them to data after you're in orbit. In most other cases, you want to be landed at the body the experiments come from... for example, landed on Minmus when converting biome experiments for Minmus. This lets you get more data out of your experiment supply. So you only want the MPL outside of Kerbin's SOI if it's processing experiments from outside Kerbin's SOI. Next, your scientist's level is the deciding factor in how much data, per day, gets processed. So, if you have a full tank of science data, 750, and you have a single 1 star scientist (only orbited Kerbin), you will get 750 * 0.000675 data processed into raw science per day, which is roughly .5 data processed a day. For comparison, a 3 star scientist will convert 750 * 0.001755 data, for 1.3 data processed per day in a full lab. This data processing value feeds into the resulting 'stored science' that needs to be transmitted from the lab to Kerbin. Also, in case you aren't aware yet, processing data is an electricity hog. This ends up with your Science/Day rate, along with multipliers based on where the base is located (and as far as I can tell) your research rewards settings in the difficulty options for your game. As an example, an MPL sitting on Minmus with 734 data and two 3 star scientists is producing 6.94 science/day. I don't remember what a full data run in Kerbin's orbit is, but it's a lot lower.

In general, to avoid a collision, you'll either need to speed up, or slow down, during your approach. Set a maneuver node by clicking on your orbit, then drag the prograde or retrograde markers until you're not colliding with the Mun. Once you've done that, you'll have a target marker on your NavBall. Looks like a blue crosshair. Aim your ship onto that, and wait until the 'time until burn' in the bottom right of the NavBall is half of your 'estimated burn' listed on the right. Then go full throttle until you've executed the maneuver (Using Z), then shut off your engines (using X). That will give you a periapsis you can work with. From there, on the Periapsis itself, set another maneuver node, burning retrograde. This will lower your apoapsis so you're actually orbiting Mun once you execute that maneuver.

In my case, I do both. Getting extra copies of the experiments is a little time consuming but reasonably easy with a lander and a few Science Cases. They're fun to build as bases, and having them actually DO something gives me a reason to get off my duff and build them. Sure, the science gain is relatively minimal in the short term, but eventually they're just money generators when I get around to checking on them. I guess it's similar to the 'Why don't I go interplanetary very often' thread. Well, why would I? What's the point? I enjoy designing rockets about as much as I like flying them. Anyways, to the OP's question, as mentioned, you need a huge battery bank. I typically overkill it completely with a massive bank of 1,000 energy ones.