OhioBob

[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana][quote name='KerikBalm']The chart with numbers... is that for 1.0 or 1.02 or 1.04 or 1.05? I can't tell.[/QUOTE] The tables that give pressure at varies altitudes is up to date for version 1.0.5 (I just edited it a couple days ago). The numbers are based off the curves used to compute pressure within the game, so they should be spot on accurate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

There are tables in the Wiki that give pressure vs. altitude (which has been updated for 1.0.5). At[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] 30 km the pressures on Kerbin and Laythe are 401 Pa and 1507 Pa respectively. [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]Laythe is also colder, so that will make the air even denser. [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]Both have the same molecular weight, so that’s not a factor.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [URL]http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Kerbin[/URL] [U][COLOR=#0066cc][URL]http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Eve[/URL] [/COLOR][/U][URL]http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Duna[/URL] [U][COLOR=#0066cc][URL]http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Laythe[/URL] [/COLOR][/U]

That issue has been discussed in this thread. From my investigations, the total Δv when measured from launch pad to orbital ejection will always be least when the minimum altitude parking orbit is used. The Δv expended to reach the higher gate orbit is more than the savings that comes from the smaller ejection burn.

That's interesting. At least we now know what to call it. The equation is the same one that I derived back in post #40 on page 4.

I usually use 42 km from LKO, 30 km from Mun/Minmus, and 25-30 km from deep space. In the later case, the faster the entry, the lower the periapsis.

I agree that PTR as a specific number doesn’t have any meaning across different designs. However, I think that maximizing PTR for a particular engine configuration does have meaning. For instance, if I’m designing a launcher using a Twin-Boar first stage and a Skipper second stage, then I want to launch the biggest payload I can with those engines. If I achieve that goal, then I would have maximized PTR and, most likely, minimized unit cost. For a given engine, PTR is directly proportional to payload mass, thus it is really just a redundant metric. Saying that PTR is 0.12 vs. 0.15 is no different than saying that one vehicle can launch a 24 t payload and the other a 30 t payload. The only slight advantage that I would give to PTR is that is PTR, payload fraction, and TWR are interrelated by the equation, PTR=PF/TWR. Some people might find it easier to use a ratio rather than dealing with actual mass figures. PTR definitely has very limited use.

My intent is that for a given engine we want to maximize PTR. As you correctly identify, it doesn’t necessarily compare across different engine configurations. However, for a specific engine configuration, we want to maximize the payload we can lift, i.e. we want to maximize PTR. In that case, PTR is a more important metric than payload fraction. That last point is where I think Requia and I differ. If I correctly understand Requia’s argument, he is saying that his high TWR designs are better because they have a higher payload fraction. My argument is that payload fraction is not the best metric to look at for cost optimization. By adding on more propellant tanks we lower the TWR, lower the payload fraction, but increase the PTR. We deliver a heavier payload using the same engines and with only a small marginal increase in cost. (ETA) From my initial theoretical investigations, it appears that the lowest unit cost occurs when the liftoff TWR is about 1.2. However, from a gameplay perspective, I think that is a bit too low. I find that when I pile on enough fuel tanks to bring the TWR down that low, the rocket becomes too wobbly, sluggish, and difficult to control. With a simple in-line, two-stage design, I’ve been targeting a TWR of about 1.3-1.4 with good results, though I'm not opposed to going as high as 1.5.

After thinking about what I posted above, I’ve come to realize that I need to invent a new term – payload to thrust ratio (PTR). It is the ratio of payload weight to launch thrust. It is comparable to payload fraction in the following way, PTR = PF / TWR I think that cost optimization is largely a matter of finding the maximum PTR. Since engines are the most expensive part of a launch vehicle, it makes sense that you’d want to lift your payload using the smallest possible engines, i.e. you want a high PTR. In the example quoted above, the PTR of the first rocket is 0.12 and the PTR of the second is 0.15. Although the first has a higher payload fraction, the second is the more cost effective launcher.

My first preference is always for two stages. However, when I can’t find a first stage engine with the right thrust, I generally go a size smaller and augment with strap-on SRBs.

When you say “mass fraction†I assume you are referring to the payload mass fraction. I don’t really care that much about payload fraction. I care even less about ÃŽâ€v. What I’m interested in is maximizing the total payload mass that a particular pair of engines can put into orbit. The payload mass definitely goes up when we add on more propellant, though the payload fraction might decrease some. That’s OK – fuel is cheap, engines are not. If I have one launcher with a TWR of 2.0 and a payload fraction 0.24, and another launcher with a TWR of 1.4 and a payload fraction of 0.21, I’ll take the latter. With the same engines, the second rocket will launch 25% greater payload mass. Yes, I experimented with them. The payload capacities that I could attain in the game were a little less than the simulations. I assume this is mainly because I flew less than ideal ascent profiles. The lowest TWR rocket was especially difficult to fly because its extreme slenderness made it rather wobbly. Otherwise it performed alright. I was definitely able to launch much heavier payloads with the larger, low TWR rockets.

My investigation of the problem suggests otherwise… http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/134299-Launch-Vehicle-Optimization-Test-Results

That was weird too, but it wasn’t the reason for the so called “soupophereâ€Â. Each part had an assigned Cd, with the total Cd of the vehicle being computed as a mass-weighted average. The Cd varied only slightly from one vehicle to another, with it typically being equal to about 0.2. The bigger problem was the area, which was computed using the formula A = 0.008*m. This basically turned everything into a flying pancake. The aerodynamics of the design meant nothing. Cd and A where both functions of mass and it didn’t matter what shape the vehicle had. Drag was computed using the correct formula, but the input variables of Cd and A were bogus. The Cd value was low, so that’s not the reason for the ridiculously high drag force. The extreme drag came from unrealistic values of A. (Claw, sorry if this is off topic. I was writing as you were posting.)

I like to have a liftoff TWR ratio somewhere in the range of 1.2 to 1.5. This results in fairly high gravity losses, but that’s acceptable to me. Setting as the goal of your design “lowest ÃŽâ€v to orbit†results in vehicles that are mass and cost inefficient. I’d rather expend more ÃŽâ€v in exchange for maximizing the payload that a particular engine can put into orbit. To understand how this works, let’s consider an example. Say I’m launching a payload using a “Twin-Boar†as the first stage. The rocket has a total liftoff mass of 100 t, and a liftoff TWR of 1.9. Suppose we find this configuration can put a 20 t payload into orbit while expending 3200 m/s ÃŽâ€v. Suppose now that everything remains the same but we start adding fuel tanks. Adding fuel tanks increases the mass and drives down the TWR. Let’s say we’ve added so much extra propellant that the total liftoff mass is now 150 t, and the liftoff TWR is 1.27. With all that extra fuel to burn we can now lift a much larger payload. However, with a lower TWR we experience greater gravity losses. Suppose we find this configuration can put a 30 t payload into orbit while expending 3400 m/s ÃŽâ€v. In the second case we find that, using the same engines, we can orbit a 50% larger payload. And since all we did was to add relatively cheap fuel tanks, our cost per ton of payload is significantly reduced. True, we used more ÃŽâ€v, but who cares? The low TWR/high ÃŽâ€v vehicle delivered a larger payload for lower unit cost. Isn’t that what really matters? The numbers above are just a made up example, but they are based on actual experience and should be indicative of what you’ll get in the game.

KSP has always used the correct drag equation, at least since I’ve been playing (starting with 0.23). The problem was that A was calculated as a function of, and directly proportional to, m. The formula used resulted in ridiculously high values for A, thus unrealistically high drag. The formula was such that all vehicles, regardless of shape, had, as I recall, a ballistic coefficient of 625.

Unmanned = Eeloo Manned = Dres I’ve landed on and returned Kerbals from every planet/moon from Moho to Dres. Beyond Dres, I’ve landed and returned an unmanned lander on every planet/moon (except Jool, of course).

Slashy, I ran through all the calculations myself and I get the exact same numbers as you, with one exception. For the total duration of the Eve mission, it looks like you added only one of the Hohmann transfer times. I get a total mission duration of 884 days 2½ hours. Of course the ÃŽâ€v is going to depend on the altitudes of the orbits. For the ÃŽâ€v at Kerbin, I concur with your numbers when I set the orbit to 70 km (i.e. the top of the atmosphere). At Duna and Eve I get slightly higher ÃŽâ€v numbers when I set the orbit equal to the atmosphere height – 618 m/s and 1410 m/s respectively. To get your ÃŽâ€v numbers, I had to make the orbits 58 km and 100 km (± depending on rounding). I'm not sure what you used.

You can find information here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/93332 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_Hermite_spline Each key is a curve segment in which you have starting point, ending point, starting tangent, and ending tangent. - - - Updated - - - I've produced quite a few drag coefficient curves for various vehicles. I found it to be too complex to compute the drag coefficient from the data in the config files (though I understand basically how it's done). I found it easier to determine it experimentally by performing tests within the game.

If I remember correctly, the velocity indicator switches from surface to orbital after passing an altitude of 36,000 m.

I have a different philosophy on that. On a typical ascent, the drag coefficient is at its maximum while the rocket passes through the velocity range of about 300-400 m/s. I like to keep the accelerator pegged and just blow through Mach 1 and keep accelerating. The less time I hang around peak Cd, the better. And, besides, I don't think the drag losses are enough to worry about; for a well designed rocket they shouldn't be over 150 m/s total. The rocket should be given an aerodynamic shape but, other than that, I don't see a reason to fret too much over drag losses.

There atmosphere is described in the Wiki...

Skipper.

Below are charts giving Eve temperature by latitude and altitude. The red numbers are where the temperature exceeds the boiling point of water. [TABLE=width: 624] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]Altitude[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]Pressure[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]Water B.P.[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 10, align: center]Daytime High Temperature (oC) by Latitude[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center](m)[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center](kPa)[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center](oC)[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]0o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]10o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]20o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]30o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]40o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]50o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]60o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]70o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]80o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]90o[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]0[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]506.6[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]153[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]156[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]154[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]150[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]142[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]135[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]131[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]125[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]114[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]101[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]95[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]500[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]464.9[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]149[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]151[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]149[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]145[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]137[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]130[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]126[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]120[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]109[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]96[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]90[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]1000[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]426.4[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]146[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]145[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]144[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]140[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]132[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]125[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]121[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]115[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]104[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]91[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]85[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]1500[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]391.1[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]143[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]140[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]138[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]134[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]127[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]120[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]116[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]110[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]99[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]87[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]81[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]2000[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]358.8[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]140[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]134[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]133[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]129[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]121[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]115[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]111[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]105[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]94[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]82[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]76[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]2500[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]329.2[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]137[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]129[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]127[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]123[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]116[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]109[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]106[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]100[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]90[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]78[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]72[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]3000[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]302.3[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]134[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]123[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]121[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]118[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]111[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]104[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]101[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]95[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]85[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]74[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]68[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]3500[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]277.9[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]131[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]117[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]116[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]112[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]105[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]99[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]96[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]91[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]81[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]70[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]65[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]4000[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]255.8[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]128[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]111[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]110[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]107[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]100[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]94[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]91[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]86[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]77[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]66[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]61[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]4500[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]235.8[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]125[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]106[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]104[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]101[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]95[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]89[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]86[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]81[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]73[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]63[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]58[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]5000[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]217.8[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]123[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]100[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]98[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]96[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]90[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]84[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]81[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]77[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]69[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]59[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]55[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]5500[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]201.6[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]120[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]94[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]93[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]90[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]84[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]79[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]77[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]72[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]65[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]56[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]51[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]6000[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]187.0[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]118[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]88[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]87[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]84[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]79[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]75[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]72[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]68[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]61[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]53[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]49[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]6500[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]173.9[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]116[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]82[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]81[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]79[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]74[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]70[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]67[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]64[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]57[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]50[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]46[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]7000[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]162.1[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]114[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]77[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]76[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]74[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]69[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]65[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]63[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]60[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]54[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]47[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]43[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]7500[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]151.4[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]112[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]71[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]70[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]68[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]64[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]61[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]59[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]56[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]50[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]44[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]41[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [TABLE=width: 624] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]Altitude[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]Pressure[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]Water B.P.[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 10, align: center]Nighttime Low Temperature (oC) by Latitude[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center](m)[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center](kPa)[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center](oC)[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]0o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]10o[/TD] [TD=class: xl68, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]20o[/TD] 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center]66[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]63[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]59[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]55[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]53[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]50[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]44[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]39[/TD] [TD=class: xl69, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]37[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] - - - Updated - - - According to kerbalmaps.com, there's a high mountain peak of about 5300 m located near latitude -58o and longitude -40o. Without doing extensive research, my guess is that that location probably has the coldest surface temperatures on the planet. I don't see anything else that has the ideal combination of high altitude and high latitude. The temperatures on that peak should be about 67-75oC.

Yes, it is interesting. Of course those higher temperatures only occur near the equator. At Eve's equator, the sea level temperature varies between a nighttime low of 147oC and a daytime high of 156oC. At the poles the sea level temperature drops to between 87oC and 95oC. The globally averaged sea level temperature is about 135oC.

We don't know what Duna's atmosphere consists of, but it's definitely not carbon dioxide. The average molecular weight of its gases is just 14. There is no real world analog for this. In fact, a planet presumably the size of Duna could never retain the lightweight gases needed to produce such a low molar mass. Duna's atmosphere is a mystery.

Good example, Otis. I see nothing wrong with your technique, though there is something that I would have likely done differently. Referencing the following image, You have the orbit of the target ship oriented in such a way that the plane change is as big as it can possibly get, about 90 degrees. I would have warped ahead until Mun's orbital path is approximately normal to the plane of the target orbit (i.e. until the target orbit is aligned roughly 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock as the image is currently oriented). I then would have adjusted my approach trajectory so that I came in flying over one of Mun's poles (which pole depends on the direction of the orbit). In this way the plane of my incoming trajectory would be approximately the same as the plane of the target orbit. It should be possible to get the planes close enough that only a small change is necessary, which can easily be accomplished in combination with the capture burn for very little ÃŽâ€v. Both methods are valid. My method requires a very small plane change while near Kerbin to adjust the trajectory so it comes in over one of Mun's pole. I usually do this as a separate course correction shortly after the initial trans-munar injection burn. Your method requires a plane change in munar orbit and an additional burn to lower the apoapsis. My method might require more time at Kerbin waiting for the proper alignment*, but your method takes more time after arriving at Mun. It might be six of one half dozen of the other in terms of efficiency. What's best is probably what each individual feels most comfortable with. (ETA) *On second thought, you have to wait for a proper alignment as well, so you get no advantage there. (ETA #2) I've studied this situation some more and ran a test to compare the methods. Both methods should use the same ÃŽâ€v for trans-munar injection and orbit insertion. What we need to compare is the large plane change in Otis' method, versus the course correction + small plane change in my method. According to the images posted by Otis, the spacecraft's velocity at munar apoapsis is 79.4 m/s, which means a burn of about 112 m/s is needed to complete a 90 degree plane change. According to the test I just ran, the course correction needed to get into a polar trajectory was 87 m/s. This gives me 25 m/s to work with, which will buy an 11 degree plane change when included with the orbit insertion burn. Therefore is comes down to how accurately the planes can be matched when using my method. If better than 11o then my method is more ÃŽâ€v efficient, if worse than 11o then Otis' method is better. I think that in the end the difference is so small that it's just a matter of preference. By the way, below is a screenshot from the test I ran showing the trajectory of my spacecraft passing over Mun's north pole. Although I didn't bother to put a target vehicle in orbit, you can see from the image how it would be possible to insert directly into a matching orbit.