CrisK

These cockpits are wonderful. Thanks BahamutoD!

[quote name='FourGreenFields']You have to worry about everything when you start designing a plane, and want it to be good. Stability, manouevreability, low weight, low drag at all speeds, weapon position, etc. etc. etc. And even 0.5m² would be twice the previous wave drag. There has to be a better solution, even if it means redesigning the whole thing. Which I didn't have to, as the edit in my previous post shows.[/QUOTE] I don't want to argue with you. I enjoy your design, and I found it fun to play around with it. I'll end my feedback there. :wink:

[quote name='FourGreenFields']No offense, but you just increased wave drag tenfold (well, eightfold anyway), just for supermanoeuverability. (Using strict area ruling and full drag. But even on default it's more than twice the previous wave drag) Its slower with afterburner, than the previous version without afterburner. That might be a tad too much to lower back down, just by shifting the wings around.[/QUOTE] Wave drag and area ruling are things that you worry about after you've finalised the flight performance and overall design. :wink: The wave drag of the E-USAF I posted a page back is lower than that of the P 24 Goshawk. The area is also lower than the P 24. That's with 4 missiles, 5 small hardpoints, a large drop tank, roughly 55% more mass, close to twice the wing area, etc. It didn't start off that way; it took a lot of precision tweaks to improve the performance to that level. I think that you're focusing too much on wave drag and area ruling while designing. You should be able to get that design down to 0.5. But before you worry about that, make sure that the plane flies well. It's slower because it has a heck of a lot more fuel. Empty the wings to lower the weight down to what it was before. :wink:

@FourGreenFields, Some minor adjustments and she's supermaneuverable. Ignore the FAR numbers and try flying her. :P She's stable up to an AoA of 58* at which point she goes into a full stall, but recovers immediately. You can perform 180 degree turns, cobra maneuvers, tight loops, etc. [URL="https://www.dropbox.com/s/h020ameuc28llol/P%2024%20Goshawk%20V2.craft.zip?dl=0"] Dropbox link to craft file[/URL]. I'm not going to modify it further since it's your design, but this platform has the potential to be a real performer. I bet that you could increase the AoA performance to about 65 degrees, lower the wave drag, and increase durability by shifting the wings around until you find a magic spot, adding struts, etc.

@FourGreenFields Nice. You should be able to improve the maneuverability by adding small chines or strakes leading into the wings, and shifting the rear wings back a bit. I played around a lot with similar wing designs when I was designing my YF-23 replica, so I think that it's absolutely possible to make a design like yours supermaneuverable and stable to an AoA of about 50 degrees. It just takes some tweaking. If you post the craft file, I bet that I could tweak it slightly to make your fighter one of the most maneuverable in the thread.

Here's a Bird of Prey with a different layout and more accurate wing design, and a completely innacurate intake design. :sticktongue: It's now stable until 60* AoA, and capable of stall maneuvers (supermaneuverable). [imgur]DFOA5[/imgur] Here's a new F-22 style plane. I had to sacrifice a small amount of performance for the sake of appearance. It has slightly worse performance than the E-USAF, but it's still incredibly maneuverable. [imgur]IY0hQ[/imgur] I tossed screenshots of a cobra maneuver and tight loops into the album. (Reaction weels have to be disabled for these kinds of maneuvers.) I tweaked the E-USAF so that it has lower drag, even with external drop tanks. Here's the E-USAF with full drop tanks and missiles performing some silly maneuvers at sub-1000m altitudes. (Both the E and F planes weigh about 22k.) The E can perform a cobra maneuver at 50m above sea level without stalling into the ocean. [imgur]l7HuD[/imgur] [img]http://i.imgur.com/wWRLslj.png[/img]

[quote name='BahamutoD']Yes, they are meant to go along side Bac9's new Mk.2 parts, since they will be using a new cross section (the same shape as stock Mk2 parts). I pretty much just need to do the IVA/internals and these will be ready, but then they would only fit with stock parts, while the texture only matches the new B9 parts. It's not too bad with stock parts though I guess. [URL]http://imgur.com/a/ZfwLa[/URL] [/QUOTE] These are gorgeous!

To be honest, it was just a matter of playing around with wing shapes and sizes until I found something that was stable. If I make the wings any larger the design no longer works. This is the first time I've designed something with this type of wing. It does not work with mods that assist yaw stability. Something about having an inverted yaw control surface seems to throw Pilot Assistant off; it does not work with this plane. Van answered before I could. Here's a link to Crzyrndm's github.

@Boris-Barboris, This is a brilliant idea for a mod. I played around with it earlier and I'm amazed at how much you managed to simulate. On the downside, I found it a bit cumbersome modify the default values. Are there a few values in particular that you recommend modifying if I want to make the controls more responsive? The defaults are excellent for a spaceplane, but severely limiting for an acrobatic or fighter jet style plane. Overall this is an amazing mod! I sent some rep your way. I hope that you continue to develop it!

I updated my designs for 1.05. I also made the new Bird of Prey supermaneuverable (to an AoA of around ~25, not as good as the more stable designs). CrisK Flanker 1.05 Stable up to an AoA of ~80*. Supermaneuverable. Recovers within seconds of a full stall using the afterburner. This allows it to perform stall maneuvers similar to the SU-27 variants. Able to do verticle climbs. Supercruises. Very easy to fly, very forgiving. Mods: B9 Procedural Wings, Adjustable Landing Gear, BDArmory. CriSK S-USAF Supermaneuverable. Stable up to an AoA of ~65*, recovers immediately from a full stall. Can perform stall maneuvers. Slightly more challenging to fly, but still relatively easy. Able to perform vertical climbs. Supercruises. CrisK E-USAF Larger F-22 style plane. Supermaneuverable. Probably the most stable unstable aircraft I've designed. Stable until an AOA of 75* with armament and drop tank. Much higher performance without the drop tank or missiles. Vertical climb. Supercruises. This is probably my favorite design simply because it can perform any stunt that I attempt, so it has the fun factor. CrisK Bird of Prey I tweaked this fellow a lot this morning. It's now highly maneuverable sub-sonic. AOA of 25*. Capable of vertical climb. Now stable while supercruising. Highly stable sub-sonic. No yaw problems (unless fully stalled, but that's not possible while the afterburner is on). It's actually a really decent fighter. Its numbers are similar to the real-world F-16, which I would have thought impossible given the limited yaw stability. It makes me wonder what would have happened if the Navy had commissioned Boeing's Bird of Prey instead of turning it into the unmanned X-45. I haven't had time to update the Fulcrum, Trainer, PAK FA, X-32, Rafale, or YF-23. I may abandon them.

Here's a design that wasn't possible pre-1.05. A Boeing Bird of Prey semi-replica. Stable at AoA turns up to 23 degrees with no vertical stabilizer. Not supermaneuverable. I've also updated my flanker, fulcrum, and two USAF style designs. I'll post the craft files tomorrow. The USAF designs are stable at AoAs of 65+.

Ferram, the latest FAR release has been incredibly stable. I think that the current (Github) version is the most stable FAR has ever been.

I was inspired by @Thingymajigy's Pak FA, so I created a version based on his design: Supermaneuverable, etc. etc. just like the others.

I'd be happy to record a fight or two, but I've moderately modified BDArmory on my install. All of these planes are a lot more deadly on my version of KSP, so the action doesn't last nearly as long. I posted this in another thread, but here's what dogfighting looks like on my install:

I've been working on a little visual mod pack for those of us who want to keep a low memory footprint. In the mean time, I've been flying the 5th gen planes through clouds. Clouds, light scattering, and distant object enhancement make dogfights a lot more challenging and fun. Climbing up through the cloud layer is a great way to escape, and it feels thrilling to dive down through the clouds onto an unsuspecting enemy drone.

A TWR of 1.5 is very high. Most fighter jets are in the 1.0 to 1.1 range. The space shuttle was 1.5. There's no tangible benefit to having a TWR above around 1.2. Even the F22 can only reach 1.26 with 50% of its fuel drained.

I'm aware! I modified the BDArmory config files on my own install so that missiles act more realistically. Given that both fighters were within 2km of each other and they both fired 4+ missiles of various homing types, both should have been destroyed.

I'm surprised that a semi-realistic plane was able to compete with the shingo. I think that a large delta wing design is the best way to go if you're building an AI drone. From the video we can see that missiles are functionally useless on any plane that can fly faster than Mach 0.5 and make reasonably good turns. The best way to optimize for the AI is to create a very pitch-stable design so that there are opportunities for the AI to use the gun.

I agree. I fixed this on my own install. I believe that BahamutoD is aware of the problem and it's likely that he'll fix it once 1.1 is released.

Darn, looks like I'll have to censor local newspapers. The people cannot learn of this defeat!

Muahahaha. I'm happy that my design's competitive.

Here's a small flanker variant that I whipped up for this challenge. It also works as a nice AI drone for BDArmory battles. I feel as though this challenge is a little silly in that we're designing planes specifically for the terrible BDArmory AI, but it's a fun idea.

I created a version of the S-USAF that uses dynamic deflection. It's now supermaneuverable at any speed up to Mach 1.? (I'm not sure what the upper end is) while fully armed with 4 sidewinders and 4 AMRAAMs. Its upper limit seems to be 21G turns while fully armed. I had to add two struts to achieve this, but I was able to remove two parts elsewhere to balance it out. I also disabled torque on the cockpit and drone core (Henge's version reminded me to do that). It actually flies better without the phantom torque. The drone core lets it fly as a BDArmory drone, and it also acts as an internal battery since the MK2 core includes 250 electrical charge. Regular batteries often inexplicably overheat and explode when in the air.

Nice work, tetryds! I sent some rep your way!

Henge, I think that you were using it wrong. Every single control surface has its own setup. You can copy your setup across an entire plane, but that's sub-optimal.PS: Doke, disable the brake torque on your forward landing gear. Attach your rear gear to one of the central shaft tanks, then use the offset tool to place it. These fixes solve the problem.