Wayfare

Thanks for using my rocket, it's pretty awesome to see her on youtube

WoodyD: Excellent, glad you got it downloaded OK and enjoyed the ship! malkuth: Thanks man, I'm honored! I can understand the trouble you had with the transposition, docking and extraction maneuver. It's a little tricky if you didn't design it yourself. I did re-write that bit later on: it's easier if you undock the MM first, then turn the CSM (with the decoupler still attached) around and dock like that. Then extract the lander, reposition for your correction burn, ditch the engine shroud and you're on your way. Clever how you used the second stage's center engine to save some delta-v on circularization

I do like the looks of the smaller decoupler, just thought it might somehow help with those strange first stage stability issues you mentioned. Small oscillations in the payload can have a pendulum effect towards the bottom of the rocket. A completely unrelated thought I just had - why do we put RCS suites on our Munar modules? They're not really needed for anything except docking the ascent stage back onto the CSM after leaving the Mun. Given that the CSM has RCS already for the TD&E maneuver, why not dock the CSM onto the ascent stage instead of the other way around? I think that's the way NASA did it too because the Apollo CSMs were much easier to control than the LM ascent stages. Of course NASA's LMs needed RCS anyway because they had no pod torque (I guess having the crew fling themselves against the bulkheads could have worked, but that would not have been very precise).

Nicely done, that makes for a really clean process. Maybe using a large decoupler would help with stability? Another trick I sometimes employ is to use the small cubic structural pieces as connection points for vertical strutting. This offsets the struts from the stack a little and seems to add rigidity for some reason.

What Sal said: Dropping stacks is cool. While asparagus staging is certainly the most fuel-efficient way to launch payloads under KSPs current aerodynamics model, it does introduce a number of problems. It's a bit of a pain to design, especially in sorting out the staging, though once you get the hang of it it's ok. It tends to make rockets roll as stages are dropped which can cause problems on heavier designs especially. It's also more parts intensive (and thus lag-inducing) as it adds a lot of decouplers, plumbing and additional strutting to a lifter. I tend to build my lifters to be able to put about 50 tons of payload into LKO (a Jumbo fuel tank, large monopropellant tank, plus a small low-orbital maneuver stage with a few tons to spare). The Munshine V you see above does just that, and I'm confident it could go up to 70 with relatively minor modification. It's a bit heavier than my old asparagus lifters but it's also a lot more stable during launch and ascent and it cuts out a lot of parts. Now, once you go beyond the 60-70 ton payload range there really aren't a lot of alternatives to building your rocket out sideways. And when you're doing that you'll reap the benefits of doing it with asparagus staging. But frankly, if I can't build what I want out of 50-ton parts then I feel I've probably engineered it wrong

My first base on another world, built in 0.19, was the Mun Arch Research Facility (toured here by foul-mouthed space trucker Herbo Kerman). It's on the flat plateau just South of one of the Mun Arches. There's a little close-up lab sitting at the Arch itself. It's all independent huts-on-stilts. From left to right we have the "Betsy" utility tractor, the crew cab and the forklift. This can be driven under any of the base's modules. It uses landing gear wheels to lift the prong up so it can dock to the underside of a module. The gear and the module's legs are then retracted so Betsy can move the module into position. I was absolutely elated this system worked! Unfortunately the parts count got way out of control and the base now lags phenomenally. Continuing on, in the middle there's a light mast surrounded by two crew shuttles and two general purpose two-man rovers (added in 0.20 ). To the right are the command center and laboratory module, along with three habitation modules. After this base I built the Minmus Low-Gravity Experiments Facility, from where Jeb fired a space cannon. A much more economical structure, it was launched in one piece with all four modules stacked on top of each other. An RCS tug was used to assemble them in orbit, after which it was flown to Minmus and landed. The next project is this single-piece, 69 part, 20 ton base which was originally designed for Laythe. Parts count has been found to be the major bottleneck in further base development so this is relatively light, though I privately think it looks awesome with the tall mast and weird antennae globe. I'm still not sure where I want to deploy it. I haven't been to Duna since 0.17...

Ultra-light (0.42 tons, 11 parts) two-man buggy included as part of the Munshine V "E" and Deluxe editions.

To preserve for posterity, the Munshine V, a lightweight (both in terms of mass and parts count) implementation of the Apollo-style Mun/Minmus rocket. It comes in three versions: Munshine V: Standard Apollo-style Mun mission craft. 194 parts, 394 tons. Munshine V - E: Enhanced version carrying a rover. 215 parts, 399 tons. Munshine V Deluxe: Includes rover, scientific instrumentation and decorative junk antennae. 249 parts, 401 tons. Plenty of pictures and discussion in the Munshine V thread. (Last picture displays scientific instrument panel included on Deluxe edition. Rover included in both Deluxe and "E" editions.)

Ooh wait I think I get it - you use a double decoupler, jettison the MM/third stage, flip the CSM around, dock, then jettison the CSM engine shroud with the second decoupler (or actually the first decoupler from the top down). Yes, that should work very nicely!

Thanks I killed Bill once by smashing him into a lander after a long EVA flight. "Hey guys, I'm ba...!" *SPLAT* Enjoy the rover! It's not the fastest, but it's really stable and - under sunlight - can go on for a long time.

Easy - my first Mun landing. Version .15 I believe, maybe .16. I didn't know about quick saves. I got pretty good at TMI burns (before maneuver nodes and patched conics, mind) before I finally managed to land in a survivable fashion

A double decoupler could certainly work, but in my mind the greatest issue is having a piece of debris between the MM and the CSM during TD&E. There are ways around this of course - tilt the MM up before decoupling, or do a bit of RCS translation, or use an EVA Kerbal (or even just the nose of the CSM) to bump the debris out of the way. You can even do away with decouplers altogether although that does leave the engine shroud stuck to the top of the MM. I'm told that reloading the scene by exiting to the space center will delete that bit, but that seems like a hassle. Launching with the MM docking port connected directly to the CSM decoupler strikes me as the cleanest fix. Given that TD&E is done only once you're on the long trip to your destination I don't see time as a critical factor.

Meet the newest member of the Munshine V family: the Munshine Deluxe! Our engineers warned us this would happen after the "E" edition. "They'll just want more!" they said, "It's a slippery slope!" they said. They were right. Still, even with a whole bunch of bells and whistles attached, the Munshine V Deluxe remains a lightweight at 249 parts and 400.72 tons. So if your computer laughs at such a part count, consider picking up the Deluxe. You deserve it! Compared to the Munshine V standard, the Deluxe adds the following: Escape-A-Blast Launch Escape System. A handsome little thing that will lift the command pod right off the rocket and hopefully towards someplace safer in the event of cataclysmic failure. Should be discarded before circularization to prevent it from living on as a kinetic space missile in low Kerbin orbit. Sweet! Satellite TV on the Mun! Lander antennae deploy in action group 6. A rover from the "E" model is slung under the left-hand side of the lander stage. Deploy by right-clicking the docking port and decoupling the node. Rover has been enhanced with an antenna which needs to be deployed manually (to prevent it from poking holes in the fuel tanks and killing everyone). In case you're interested in "science", a full instrumentation panel has been mounted low on the right-hand side of the lander. It comes with its own illumination hooked up to the lander floodlights action group (3). Not to be outdone, the Complimentary Snacks Module (CSM) has also been fitted with antennae (action group 5). Its solar panels have been upgraded to slicker versions.

Well, I took your rocket out for a spin We went to the Mun and got back safe. It was a very interesting ride! As you did for me, I'll draw comparisons to my Munshine V at various points. There were some pretty interesting design differences in spite of the overall great similarity. Liftoff! I had some trouble with the Earth V on the pad. It really doesn't like to sit in its clamps for too long. I tried to timewarp into daylight but the rocket had just started oscillating (ASAS was on, that's why) and bent like a noodle. I'm happy to report your escape tower works fine I aborted to the VAB and placed the launch clamps up higher, making it a bit more stable. All in all though, the best approach seemed to be to just launch as quickly as possible. I took a fairy gentle gravity turn, allowing the Poodles to work their magic in the thinnest part of the atmosphere. With an apoapsis of 95km achieved, the second stage still had almost half its fuel left! I wouldn't be surprised if that stage could push us a fair way to the Mun. Anyway, I used the second stage to nearly circularize, then finished off with the third stage. After TMI, about 20% fuel left. More than my Munshine does, and the Earth is pushing a heavier payload to boot. There's oodles of fuel in this thing Derp! After separating the CSM I realize there will be a bit left in between the craft. Thinking the third stage to be inert at this point, Wilbro went on EVA to headbutt the offending debris out of the way. Only later did I realize that the lander has a couple of probe cores and could have rotated away from the debris. Oh well. Extracting the MM with the engine shroud still on the CSM. I realize now that in this configuration, the stack separator is sort of redundant. One could simply undock the MM from the large decoupler, perform TD&E, then jettison the decoupler with no need for debris-avoiding maneuvers. Course correction and Mun capture burn consumed about 25% of the CSM's fuel. Landing with the Poodle is a breeze compared to my LV-909 powered lander! The fuel load seems well balanced in the landing stage. I flew a fairly steep descent and was left with a bit over 10% fuel. Hehe Ascent from the Mun took me by surprise. Accustomed to my ascent stage, which has half the thrust of the Earth V's, I throttled to 100% and staged. The ascent stage spun wildly out of control and nearly crashed! Turns out she's very, very slightly unbalanced (probably by the small ladder). With such an enormous TWR and the engines close to the COM, she really wants to spin out. Fortunately the ASAS is more than capable of holding her steady. I found out that using a lower amount of thrust and rotating only with the engines throttled down to 0%, I could control the ascent stage quite well. She reached orbit with about half her fuel left. Some more fuel shots. By pumping the remaining ascent stage fuel into the CSM, I was left with an impressive 60% of my CSM fuel after making the burn back to Kerbin. We came home in the dark. Didn't have a lot of say in the matter as I didn't want to circularize back around Kerbin first. Mission success! So let's have some observations. --Earth V's lifter is a beautiful beast of a machine. A bit of a hazard on the pad and definitely not something you want to twist around wildly, but she launches very majestically. I loved the slow climb during the first 10km or so. It really is an immensely powerful rocket that needs to be handled with care. A bit more struttage in the first stage would not go amiss. --The second stage seems rather overpowered, though it does its job very well as a result. I think you could get away with a smaller first stage to get more mileage out of the second. --There's a lot of vertical strutting in the third stage and the payload. I'm not sure all of that is needed, but it is very rigid! --I think the stack separator can go. This would make TD&E a simpler operation. --Love, love, love landing with the Poodle. As I said over in my thread, I do think it is too heavy and too powerful, but boy does it make landing easy! Very forgiving. It usually takes me a few tries to work out any lander's descent profile but the Earth V lander set down fine on the first try. --The ascent stage is very twitchy. Well, ascent stages usually are But I think with four instead of eight radial engines she'd be easier to control under power. --Overall the fuel efficiency of this craft is amazing. I dumped tons of fuel with the second stage and brought the CSM back with her tank 60% full. With some modifications I would not be surprised if this could make it to Duna and back. --It was great to get hands-on experience with the ways in which you tackled each challenge in this build differently from me. Definitely gave me a bunch of ideas! Thanks for a great ride on a great rocket!

That's so cool Did you drive the 2.5km to there? How did you like the buggy?

Cheers Jm419! I just flew a complete mission with your Earth V and I'll have a write-up in your thread shortly. I don't think the second stage can make orbit - maybe just, if you fly a perfect ascent and shoot for the lowest possible orbit. But I purposefully design lifters to leave no debris in LKO, which is why circularization is done with the third stage. Yup, the third stage is pretty tight as a result of the second stage being non-orbital. I derped pretty big on the TD&E on your craft, though I did sort it out. Pilot error The connection between the CSM and the MM is one of the more interesting engineering challenges in these designs, as you don't want to have any debris between your CSM and MM when you're trying to dock them back together. Using a dual decoupler was a clever solution. In fact, your design showed me that the Munshine CSM can keep its engine shroud attached during the TD&E, which cuts out the need to flip the third stage. Yours could do the same if you get rid of the stack separator. Depends on what you're used to I guess I find the Poodle too heavy for a light lander like this. I may try swapping the single LV-909 for a set of four on the outside tanks to make it a bit more forgiving. I'd love to do that, but I can't figure out a way to do it without compromising pretty severely on part count and/or aesthetics. The current arrangement of fuel tanks has a functional role too, as it leaves gaps where additional payload can be tucked into while giving the landing legs a nice stable spread. I tend to use part of the excess fuel for stuff like non-equatorial landings, high altitude killing of horizontal velocity, and other such things. Yeah, that's another part of my as-little-debris-as-possible policy. Although the CSM has enough fuel to put the MM on a suborbital trajectory, undock it and then re-esablish orbit for itself. They're functional on the lander, just for looks on the CSM. We go down with the ship Thanks!

WAYFARE Aerospace, Engineering & Kitchen Appliances “Our SCEs don't even have an AUX setting.†Welp, it seems the forum won't let me edit the original post The original Munshine V - with pictures - can be found here. The Munshine V - E uses the same craft, the same launch profile, but it adds a rover! "E" stands for "Expedition". Or "Extra". Or "Enhanced". Or whatever. Have you ever walked into a room full of engineers and told them you love their design, you just want to make it more complicated? Fortunately, Wayfare has a solid chain of command and we didn't have to beat our engineers with it for too long until they agreed to add a rover to the Munshine V. They also added a couple of extra RCS fuel tanks to the other side of the landing stage. They don't like it when you call them ballast. They especially don't like it when you call them [bLEEP]. The "E" edition runs the Munshine V up to 399,69 tons and 215 parts on the launchpad. That's 21 additional parts and less than a ton of extra mass. It affects the original flight profile about as much as you sneezing during the TMI burn. Deploying the buggy is easy - just right-click the docking port and decouple the node. Rarely have Kerbals been so excited about a few wheels bolted to a metal plate! "Let's go over there!" "What's over there?" "Genesis rocks? Ancient arches? Scantily-clad purple-skinned Munbabes? Who cares? Vrooom!" Wayfare recommends you enable brakes before decoupling the rover. To save power, disable the motors on the rear wheels when operating the rover. When rover is low on power, park rover in the sun for a few hours to recharge. Do not flip rover. Do not roll rover. Do not attempt to orbit rover. Rover parts may be harmful if swallowed. Use at your own risk.

Here it is folks - the Munshine V - E! "E" stands for "Expedition". Or "Extra". Or "Enhanced". Or whatever. Have you ever walked into a room full of engineers and told them you love their design, you just want to make it more complicated? Fortunately, Wayfare has a solid chain of command and we didn't have to beat our engineers with it for too long until they agreed to add a rover to the Munshine V. They also added a couple of extra RCS fuel tanks to the other side of the landing stage. They don't like it when you call them ballast. They especially don't like it when you call them [bLEEP]. The "E" edition runs the Munshine V up to 399,69 tons and 215 parts on the launchpad. That's 21 additional parts and less than half a ton of extra mass. It affects the original flight profile about as much as you sneezing during the TMI burn. Deploying the buggy is easy - just right-click the docking port and decouple the node. Rarely have Kerbals been so excited about a few wheels bolted to a metal plate! "Let's go over there!" "What's over there?" "Genesis rocks? Ancient arches? Scantily-clad purple-skinned Munbabes? Who cares? Vrooom!" Wayfare recommends you enable brakes before decoupling the rover. To save power, disable the motors on the rear wheels when operating the rover. When rover is low on power, park rover in the sun for a few hours to recharge. Do not flip rover. Do not roll rover. Do not attempt to orbit rover. Rover parts may be harmful if swallowed. Use at your own risk.

Apollo is all the rage these days Awesome rocket, sir!

Jm419 - I'm glad you like it! Cutting the launchpad lights and their RTGs would save another 20 parts (yikes!) but there's just something awesome about seeing the rocket and the whole pad bathed in light during a night launch. Realism wasn't actually that great a concern to me - what I really appreciate about inline staging is the simplicity and stability. Asparagus staging inherently adds a lot of parts (decouplers, struts, fuel lines) and tends to induce roll during staging. Inline rockets fly straight and true. I just never thought that a fairly light inline rocket could do the sort of lifting an asparagus rocket can. Turns out the Munshine V - with the third stage and up replaced by a small Poodle-powered orbital stage - will push at least 40 tons of payload into LKO and possibly more. So I not only got a really nice Apollo-style Mun rocket, but I've also found my new lifter of choice The Skippers work wonderfully in the second stage. I'd be worried about the low thrust of Poodles, though I guess a less aggressive gravity turn would help. Poodles really shine in thin atmosphere/vacuum. My turn sequence tends to be 5 degrees at 200m/s (just to clear the KSC), 20 degrees at 300m/s, 45 degrees at 500m/s, horizontal at 1200m/s. Funny you should ask about the rover. I just spent two hours working on increasingly absurd counterweight payloads until I realized I could just put a couple of spherical RCS tanks on the other side of the lander and be done with it Let me know how you like the Munshine! I have yet to fly your Earth V (just picked it apart for engineering ideas) but I'll be sure to return the favor. j-tk, good to hear you got your problems fixed! I've had a lot of fun with the Nova Punch pack and am happy to see it being kept alive. Now go fly the Munshine in all its textured glory

I think I'm gonna have to bring one to Laythe! Very nice

J-tk, while I did use Subassembly Saver/Loader during the build, I tested this version in a perfectly clean 0.20.2 install of the game and had no issues. Restarting your game might help, make sure you don't touch anything while KSP is loading parts during startup. Is anyone else experiencing this? WoodyD, it is dropboxed If you're using Chrome, the browser has a nasty habit of opening .craft files as text. You can either copy/paste the text into a .craft file, or you can right-click the download link and choose "save as". Everyone: I'm working on an "expedition edition" that will include a deployable ultralight rover (seats two, 10 parts, less than half a ton in weight) and science package. Stay tuned!

Oooh, that suicide burn trick is pretty clever! I'm gonna try that

Thanks guys! csiler2: I agonized over the lander for a long time, trying out many different configurations. With KSPs limited selection in low-volume fuel tanks I found it quite hard to design a true two-stage lander that would be both light on parts and good on looks. Kinda proud of how it turned out Mulbin: That's high praise coming from you While our design philosophies differ a bit in terms of part count (that's an understatement), your Munbug series sure is pretty!

Full disclosure: the Munshine V was inspired by Jm419's Earth V, a splendid design which encouraged me to move away from asparagus staging. I've found the Munshine launcher to be much lighter (in terms of part count, not mass) and more stable than my previous designs. Thanks Jm419!