capi3101

135...okay. 1 orange tank + 4 FL-T800s; you've got 90 tonnes of fuel tanks, that weighs 10 tonnes empty - 80 tonnes of fuel total. So the dry mass there oughta be 55 tonnes, right? ln(135/55)*9.81*800 = 7,047 m/s delta-V. 5560 is what the delta-V map shows - that's 1680 for a Kerbin/Moho transfer, 2200 to go into a low orbit, and 1680 for a transfer back. You've got that, no doubt. Thing is, I've never seen alexmoon's calculator show less than 4500 m/s for a Moho transfer - both ways that's 9,000 m/s at a minimum. So I'll have to stick with "maybe". You should be able to make it there but I can't guarantee you'll make it back without a refill in Moho orbit.

In my experience, 72.5k is as low as you want to go for aerobraking. And I'd still advise quicksaving as soon as you hit Eve's SOI.

I'm'a gonna go with yes, as long as you don't ever light that Skipper. If you do, it's a solid maybe... It does seem like it's got a bit more RCS than it needs. Solar panels too - you could easily trade out those four Gigantors for a pair of dinky little 2x3s without the cases and be fine. Better yet, 4-8 OX-STATS down there towards the Skipper would keep you covered; a ring of tiny batteries could also be added and you'd still have less overall weight than those four Gigantors. Strike that - put 'em up on the other orange tank; I see the docking port setup there. You might want to lose the Skipper, did I mention that already? Not because you won't need its thrust, but because I'm pretty sure it's setup to drain that other orange tank first (unless you disable fuel crossfeed across the docking ports). What's your overall mass?

Sounds like insufficient strutting between the fuel tanks on the booster coupled with dangerously high gee during the launch. If you use that design again, watch your gee meter as you're going up and throttle back if it starts edging its way out of the green zone. Okay...this oughta do the trick. For all others in a state of general apathy: long post ahead. TRANSFER STAGE/PAYLOAD 1x Clamp-o-tron Docking Port (centerline; forward) 1x RC-L01 Remote Guidance Unit (centerline) 1x Advanced SAS Module, Large (centerline) 1x Z-4K Rechargable Battery Bank (centerline) 4x Illuminator Mk1 (mount port, starboard, dorsal and ventral on the ASAS unit, facing forward - towards the Clamp-O-Tron) 2x OX-4W 2x3 Photovoltaic Panels (mount port and starboard on the battery) 5x Rockomax X200-32 Fuel Tank (one centerline, four outboard with fuel lines from the outboard tanks to the centerline tank) 2x Stratus-V Cylindrified Monopropellant Tank (mounted on the port and starboard outboard bipropellant fuel tanks) 12x RV-105 RCS (mounted port, starboard, dorsal and ventral; 4 on the probe core, 4 on the outboard fuel tanks near the unit's center of mass, and 4 on the Girder Adapter) 1x Modular Girder Segment XL (mounted aft (below) the centerline bipropellant fuel tank) 1x Modular Girder Adapter (mounted below the Girder Segment XL; this is the piece that connects to the booster) 4x BZ-52 Radial Attachment Point (mounted port, starboard, dorsal and ventral of the Girder Segment XL to the bottom of the centerline bipropellant fuel tanks) 4x LV-N Atomic Rocket Motor (one attached to each BZ-52) Total Thrust: 240 kN; Total Mass: 103.155 unburdened, 119.155 with intended payload; Acceration: 2.32 m/s^2 (0.24G) unburdened, 2.01 m/s^2 (0.21 G) with intended payload; delta-V: 11,725.08 m/s unburdened, 8,734.02 m/s with intended payload. Sounds like what you had already, just with a LOT more fuel. Struts will be required between the outboard fuel tanks, with two additional struts connecting each outboard fuel tank to the centerline fuel tank. A set of struts running from the tops of the outboard tanks to the probe core is also recommended. This design will launch off the top of one of Temstar's Nova lifters with no issues (be sure to strut the Nova's main decoupler to the Girder Adapter and add at least one set of struts from each of the boosters to a point on the Girder XL, a point on the LV-Ns and a point on the outboard fuel tanks. I've launched similarly designed payloads this exact same way off of Novas before, and have had no issues (Supernovas are another story...). If you don't have Subassembly or for some reason don't like Temstar (and if you don't, why?), never fear: here's a five-stage asparagus lifter design (i.e. eight outboard boosters dropped in pairs with the centerline acting as the fifth stage). I won't mention it's generally based on the same design principles that Temstar uses... CENTERLINE BOOSTER: 1x Rockomax Brand Decoupler (Attach this to the Girder Adapter of the payload and strut the hell out of it) 1x RC-L01 Remote Guidance Unit (centerline; if all goes well you'll need this to de-orbit the centerline booster once the payload's in orbit) 4x Z-100 Rechargable Battery Pack (mount port, starboard, dorsal and ventral on the core; this will keep the core powered long enough to make the de-orbit burn) 4x Stratus-V Rad. Mono Tank (mount port, starboard, dorsal and ventral near the top of the jumbo) 8x RV-105 RCS ((mount port, starboard, dorsal and ventral; four as far forward as you can get them, the other four as far aft as you can get them) 1x Rockomax Jumbo 64 Fuel Tank (centerline) 1x Rockomax X200-32 Fuel Tank (centerline; be sure to strut-stitch this one to the Jumbo 64 above and the X200-16 below) 1x Rockomax X200-16 Fuel Tank (centerline) 6x BZ-52 Radial Attachment Point (mount radially outward either along the Jumbo 64 or the X200-32; doesn't matter which) 6x FL-T100 Tank (one attached to each BZ-52; run fuel lines to the centerline tank) 8x Modular Girder Segment XL (mount radially near the top of the X200-16; attach your booster decouplers to the end of these and strut down at least one end). 1x Rockomax "Mainsail" Liquid Engine (mount aft) 8x Rockomax Mark 55 Radial Mount Liquid Engine (mount radially as low on the X200-16 as you can get them facing aft, leave some room for the RCS blocks). RADIAL BOOSTER (x8): 1x TT-70 Radial Decoupler (one on each Girder XL of the centerline - use TT-38Ks instead if you don't like how it looks, but be sure to add stage sepratrons if you do; struts either way running from the decoupler to the centerline booster are recommended). 1x Rockomax X200-16 Fuel Tank (attach this piece to the decoupler; this is also where your fuel lines need to be - two going to the centerline tank, the rest attaching to the bottom of each progressive stage). 1x Rockomax X200-32 Fuel Tank (forward of the X200-16; again you'll want to strut-stitch this part to the X200-16 below and the Jumbo 64 above) 1x Rockomax Jumbo 64 Fuel Tank (forward of the X200-32) 6x BZ-52 Radial Attachment Point (mounted radially outward either along the Jumbo 64 or the X200-32; doesn't matter which) 6x FL-T100 Tank (one attached to each BZ-52; run fuel lines to the centerline tank) 1x Rockomax "Skipper" Liquid Engine (mounted aft) 4x Rockomax Mark 55 Radial Mount Liquid Engine (mounted radially as low on the X200-16 as you can get them facing aft) The vitals on the booster break down this way: STAGE 5: Thrust: 2,460 kN ; Initial Mass: 190.11 t; Stage Initial TWR: 1.32; Stage delta-V 1,203.94: m/s. STAGE 4: Thrust: 4,720 kN ; Initial Mass: 338.64 t; Stage Initial TWR: 1.42; Stage delta-V 1,391.079: m/s. STAGE 3: Thrust: 6,980 kN ; Initial Mass: 487.17 t; Stage Initial TWR: 1.46; Stage delta-V 906.05: m/s. STAGE 2: Thrust: 9,240 kN ; Initial Mass: 635.7 t; Stage Initial TWR: 1.48; Stage delta-V 588.17: m/s. STAGE 1: Thrust: 11,500 kN ; Initial Mass: 784.23 t; Stage Initial TWR: 1.49; Stage delta-V 468.71: m/s. Total Delta-V: 4,557.95 m/s; Total Number of Parts: 253 (includes payload) plus struts. I recommend the same general strut set between the booster and the payload as for a Nova lifter. You'll also have to add no fewer than three strut triplets (one to the next tank over; two the centerline tank) per booster - I recommend two off the Jumbo 64s and one off the X200-32s at a minimum (72 struts minimum there). There's a fraktonne of gimballing engines on this design, so I'll recommend you use an action group that locks down the gimballing on the Mk-55s and that you activate it after the physics engine releases. Add Delta-Deluxe Winglets to the outer boosters if the design proves to be unflyable as I've laid it out above; you should still be able to make orbit even with the extra weight. The transfer stage, as indicated, will have 8,734.02 m/s of delta-V with your plane attached; that's about 120% of the delta-V generally recommended for a transfer to Jool, an orbit of Jool, a transfer from Jool to Laythe, and an orbit of Laythe - if all goes well you probably could do your Laythe de-orbit burn with it too. Should even have enough juice to do a few initial orbital plane changes around Kerbin if necessary. The acceleration rate, though it sucks, is low enough that it should be sufficient to keep your craft from wobbling; only other thing you could do there would be to go for a Senior or a multi-port setup, neither of which are viable options for a spaceplane in all likelihood. It will gradually improve as you burn fuel, of course; I'd still recommend the periapsis kick method prior to Jool transfer. I imagine if you sent one of the transfer stages to Laythe without the plane, you could use it for a Laythe orbit rendezvous and get your spaceplane back to Kerbin. Might depend on if the plane can make Laythe orbit again once it's there. I can't actually guarantee it'll make it back to Kerbin...might depend on how well you fly it getting there. I think it would make it back, but don't quote me on that. Alright - that's all I've got. Good luck; I hope this works out for you - if you have any questions, ask.

An SSTO is not necessarily a spaceplane (and it irks me how many folks think the two terms are synonymous). If your rocket consists of payload/booster, and the booster has no seperation events, it's an SSTO. SSTOs are horribly inefficient - in my experience, you get about a 4% payload fraction on an SSTO booster design, as compared to about 15% for an asparagus booster; 46 tonnes is the practical payload limit for an easy SSTO design. They also take careful flying; you can't just leave the throttle up all the way the whole way up. Building them is far, far easier to do and you don't have to worry about staging events - those are about the only advantages to them. An SSTO doesn't have to be small, either - that 46 tonne payload rocket weighs about 1150 tonnes all told and needs nine Mainsails to launch. If any of y'all want, I'll share my magic formulas for building an SSTO rocket design. They're pretty simple, actually. Well, except for the backwards Tsiolkovsky part... Anyways, 70k is where the atmosphere ends and the music begins; that's already been established.

After finding a proper set of nuclear bomb tests to name them after, I continued my efforts in Operation Outland by docking two new modules to my nascent Mun-orbiting space station - Julin Lubbock 7 and Julin Bristol 7; the station has been renamed "Julin Mun", though I'm still debating whether or not I liked the orginal name (Gates of Hell 7) better. The Julin Bristol module included a Shielded Clamp-O-Tron in the design, so once it had docked to the station I decided to take the Orthus 7 space bike lander (which I designed for the Doing it Gemini Style challenge and left in orbit once the mission was complete) and dock it to the station as well. The station's not even completed or manned yet, and already it has a capability to make surface excursions. Two transfer stages down on the Mun; one crashed, one broke up after tipping over (landed on a grade, and once again these stages are NOT designed to land.) Also did a proof of concept for Death Engineering's new Constellation Space Program Challenge; basically was trying to see how light of a command capsule I could create. Let's just say I'm pleased with the results and will probably be joining this challenge once I get the "how to do it" part figured out. @Silverchain: I'll work on a design today and post again in this thread once I have something for you. Meantime, the "final stage separation went wrong" how, and what kind of engine layout did you use for your first transfer stage attempt?

What's the word on that persistence file, Death Engineering? Already did my first test of an idea for the Orion - not a proper boilerplate test, just a proof of concept of one of the features I considered when I first read about this challenge. As much as it pains me, I might have to join this one too...

How massive is that craft and where does the transfer stage attach, and what do you mean by "it wasn't very good"? I'm sitting here bored and that's the sort of challenge I relish; I'd gladly assist in a design.

It should work. The trick of course is going to be placing the RCS thruster blocks in the right spot to give you good overall steerage. 12 blocks is what I recommend per station bit - 4 as close to the top as you can manage, 4 as close to the bottom, and four along the center of mass. Preferably all twelve blocks should be placed the same radial distance from the central axis of your station bit to avoid uneven torque when rotating (you can mount an RCS block on cubic octagonal struts or even girders if necessary). RCS fuel tanks will also be needed, of course. RCS makes docking a heckuva lot easier (largely because of the H and N keys; you don't have to turn the whole assembly around to speed up or slow down). I would recommend using bipropellant (standard engines) for getting to the rendezvous point, and using RCS for the actual docking maneuver. You can use RCS for both, but it takes a LOT longer to get a rendezvous.

Began a long-term exploration and colonization project of the entire system, which so far is entitled "Operation Outland" until I can come up with something that sounds more destructive. Goals of the project are to put a satellite and a modular space station around every body in the Kerbol system and a pair of Hellhounds on the surface of every world (except Jool, of course). A longer-term project will be to put habitats on planetary surfaces, and then finally to crew them on a semi-permanent basis. So I kicked this mess off this evening (after spending a good chunk of the day in the design process - by hand, mind you; KER's still giving me fits) by launching a science satellite to orbit around Minmus. After then taking the time to make the necessary re-designs, I launched a space station core to a successful orbit around Mun, and then landed the kicker stage on the Mun's surface without making anything 'splode (it would've been more remarkable had it landed upright, given that it is most definitely NOT designed to land and has an exceptionally very narrow base on the bottom.

I was going to say somewhere between 33% and 40% of the total fuel in the core stage - that's just based on my own observations of staging in general, though. Sounds about right.

Alright - let's say my total payload 138.175 tonnes - the formulas say: Rocket: 921.167 tonnes (booster = 782.992 tonnes) 1.6-1.7 TWR: 14459 kN, 15363 kN 22%: 3181-3380 (a pair of Mainsail and an LV-30 should do the trick, 13.25 tonnes) Lessay I d721.o eight boosters; then it's 1410-1498 kN per booster (i.e. a single mainsail each, eight mainsails total, 48 tonnes) So that leaves 721.742 tonnes to divvy up among nine stacks (80.19 tonnes per stack if it's done evenly). So is that how I determine the fuel (two jumbos and an X200-16 or thereabouts in this case), or is there a more general formula you've developed?

I've had luck with sticking the rover under a lander before - the trick was to add a counterbalance. I've probably had the most luck, however, sticking the rovers on the sides; they can usually be uprighted on pod torque alone.

Went ahead and used a Zenith booster for a design I did over the weekend; it worked as advertised. At this point I'm thinking my earlier problems may have just been in transferring a craft straight from 0.20 to 0.21 without making any adjustments (if that makes any kind of sense). I was going to ask if you had any kind of ready formula for figuring out how much fuel an individual asparagus stage requires, Temstar. I know how your base formulas work (15% payload fraction, 1.6-1.7 launch TWR, 22% of total thrust in the core/centerline stge). Do you have a particular delta-V goal for each individual stage, or do you just go with (derived booster mass - engine mass - staging equipment mass - RCS mass - control unit mass)/number of stacks? I ask for my own knowledge; been working on formulas for single-stage boosters myself lately (and boy do they suck).

Designed a one-way Tylo lander on Saturday for another member of the forums. Got word yesterday that it worked as advertised so I decided to build one my own self. Had to burn a little of the payload's fuel to acheive orbit; looking back over the numbers today, I see why - I put it on one of Temstar's Zenith Nova boosters and the payload mass was 117 tonnes (max payload capacity of the Nova is 110, so I should've used a Supernova instead). Still, the numbers say the transfer stage has more than enough juice to reach Tylo, so I'll probably be heading that way come the next transfer window. My first foray to the Jool system. Right now the craft is called the Trinitite Tylo 7 - another case of not enough time to come up with a better (read: cooler and more ominous-sounding) name. Since it looks like I'll be headed to Jool in the near future, I'm considering a project to launch satellites to the other bodies in the Kerbin system that I have yet to visit (Dres, Eeloo and the other Joolian moons). I might even make it a joint mission to launch Hellhound rovers to those bodies. I'll keep y'all posted on that. Been considering updates to the Flaming Turd 7 (also known as the Mohole 7) - another 10,000 m/s delta-V craft. I've noted that it handles like a total piece of crap when the tanks are full, so the name's appropriate at least (this with three working lander cans attached to boot). No RCS aboard and she's supposed to dock with an Orthus 7 space bike, and make a round trip to Moho. I'm concerned that she doesn't have enough delta-V, main reason for a redesign. Plus I need to test my Unified SSTO Rocket theory.

Put together a couple of designs for some folks here on the forums (one was 16 tonnes of rover to Minmus, the other a one-way Tylo lander). Tried to come up with a "unified SSTO rocket theory"; am going to have to do more on the fly designs to see if it works like I think it does. Otherwise it was pretty quiet on the Kerbal front today. Really am considering what I want to do next with the game. Moho's an option now, and I'd still like to do a round-trip eve mission; the Evil Eye was a bust - still trying to figure out what happened there, but with most of the exterior stages gone before making Kerbin orbit, I figured a return from Eve was out of the question.

Yeah, that's onion. That one blew itself up on you, didn't it? That design might've worked with MOAR STRUTS. Run between the corresponding tanks on each side, one from the top of each tank to the center for starters.

Onion's a form of parallel staging, kinduva mid-point between serial staging and asparagus. You set up three of four stages in concentric rings around a centerline engine, and run fuel lines going progressively from the outer tanks towards the center. When you stage, you shed off the outer ring, until you're left with just the centerline engine. Onion provides more delta-v than serial staging as a rule and like asparagus lets you use all your engines from the get-go, and is easier to set up than asparagus, but does not provide the same kind of smooth thrust curve as asparagus and produces less delta-v than asparagus.

Okay...mission profile is to safely land eight tonnes of rover on the surface of Minmus. Actually, let's make that sixteen tonnes of rover; the best counterweight for a rover is an identical rover. No return necessary - so 4550 for the launch, 920 for the intercept, 80 to orbit and 240 to land, a total delta-V of 5,790 m/s, with the bulk of that needed for the launch. Surface gravity for Minmus is .491 m/s^2; we'll need that for landing TWR purposes. Kerbin's gravity is, of course, 9.81 m/s^2. We could probably do this in two bits - a transfer and landing stage and a booster. 1,240 for the xfer-lander is fairly trivial. Payload (16.0 t) Lander/Transfer Unit 1x RC-L01 Remote Guidance Unit (0.5 t) 4x Z-100 Rechargable Battery Pack (0.02 t) 4x OX-STAT Photovoltaic Panels (0.02 t) 2x Stratus-V Roundified Monopropellant Tank (0.47 t) 8x RV-105 RCS Thruster Blocks (0.4 t) 4x BZ-52 Radial Attachment Point (0.16 t) 2x TR-18A Stack Decoupler (0.1 t) 4x LT-2 Landing Strut (0.4 t) 2x LV-N Atomic Rocket Engine (4.5 t) 2x FL-T100 Fuel Tank (1.125 -0.125 t) 1x X200-8 Fuel Tank (4.5 - 0.5 t) Landing TWR: 8.41, delta-V: 1,482.638 m/s, full mass: 29.045 tonnes. The X200-8 is your base unit. Attach two of the BZ-52s to the sides as low as you can get them, then stick the decouplers on and attach your rovers to them via their docking ports. Place the girder below the X200-8, with the Adapter below it. Stick the other two BZ-52s either side of the girder and attach your FL-T100s and then the LV-Ns to them; the Adapter is what will connect the rest of the ship to the booster (along with a copious amount of strutting; struts are going to be your friend with this design). You might get away with only four RCS blocks - my intent there is only to give you steering authority after SECO on the booster prior to Kerbin orbital insertion. And the legs might not be long enough to reach the ground with those LV-Ns attached, so get used to the idea of trying to land on the bells (its possible, just tricky; the legs will give you something to land on when the engines snap off). Rest of it's utility pieces, of course. So now we go for the booster: Payload: 29.045 tonnes 4x RV-105 RCS Thruster Blocks, as low as you can get them in the central stack. 7x Rockomax "Mainsail" Liquid Fuel Engine - one center, six outboard 14x Rockomax Jumbo 64 Liquid Fuel Tank - one center, six outboard, do NOT run fuel lines 7x Rockomax X200-16 Fuel Tank - one center, six outboard, in the middle 7x Rockomax X200-8 Liquid Fuel Tank - one center, six outboard, on the bottom Launch TWR: 1.62, delta-V: 4544.749 m/s, full mass: 657.745 tonnes. Struts, struts and more struts. The delta-V I listed does not count for the change in TWR, so the booster will actually have more fuel than it needs. It's an SSTO rocket, which means if you do switch the design in favor of asparagus or even onion, you'll get even more delta-V out of it. Leaving it as is (an SSTO), you need to watch your gee meter as you ascend; throttle back as it climbs out of the green - you'll need to do this a couple of times. Orbital insertion probably needs to be done at no more than one-third throttle. Good luck; I hope it goes well. DISCLAIMER: I am not responsible for any UVDs you may experience with any of my designs, nor am I liable for personal injury or physical damage that may occur as a result (virtual and/or actual).

8 tonnes? No problem. I haven't got time to work on a design right this second but I'll attend to it this afternoon. My first instinct is to use that attachment node on top of that green thing on top of the lander can (I assume that's a Kethane storage tank. The docking port is another possibility, though those big I-beams might make that problematic. I say that...actually, I'm beginning to think of how you might be able to use them to your advantage in the overall design.

Was going to call shenanigans - until I took a closer look and saw the parts clipping on the boosters. It was a good four hours...if only I'd managed to land the CM on land......

What's the mass on that rover? You could try something like what I did on the Storax Sedan mission - two four tonne Hellhound 7 rovers, attached radially on either side of a skycrane using LV-N engines. Did a test run of the system to Minmus first, actually; was able to land directly on the engine bells. Pics of the Hound here. You probably could do something similar, with the bonus of having a second Kethane miner available to you. Seriously, what's the mass on that rover, and where are all its available attachment nodes?

Redesigned the Orthus 7 lander to make it Moho-capable (calling it the Orthus Moho 7; real imaginative, I know). Somehow managed to jack up the lower stage of the Saturn I booster, so I had to ditch most of that stage and rebuild it; fortunately, there aren't all that many parts involved once you account for eight-times symmetry. Redesigned ship is now in orbit awaiting the next transfer window, which will come in 30 days or so. Meanwhile I stuck a flight computer on the Mohole 7 - renamed the Flaming Turd 7 - and launched it into orbit. Alexmoon's calculator says a Moho transfer will take 4,915 m/s on an optimal trajectory there and 4,753 back for 9,668 total, and the Turd's got 9,961 m/s of delta-V total. My margin for error's a bit thin there, so I may be adding another gas canister or two to the xfer/sm stage just to be safe. It will be my first visit to Moho, after all... Held the lead on the Doing it Gemini Challenge for all of four hours today...I'd still have it if only the damn command pod had landed instead of splashed down. Hell of a buzz-kill.

That one nails everybody on their first attempt, and it's only later that folks learn about the IVA radar altimeter...

I'd suggest a BZ-52 set at an angle, with one of the little Pegasus ladders mounted on that (you'll have to counterbalance with another BZ-52 on the other side of course but that's no biggie, an a Pegasus has got such low mass that it won't affect your rocket all that much). The BZ-52s pretty much attach at any angle you set them, which is why I suggest it. Otherwise I'd suggest a Rockomax Brand Adapter - and that's probably your best option.