Bothersome

I think the more likely reason for them wanting to put the MP mode in KSP is because they notice a few potential customers saying they wouldn't buy it without MP. They didn't notice any potential customers saying they won't buy it until resources are added. What I think Squad is underestimating is the fan base. They have as many sales as they do BECAUSE of us, the fans, posting on forums and other places about how great KSP is. If Squad wants to pursue that new money, will that new fan base be enough to keep up-talking KSP to keep their cash flow up? We old fans might eventually find that we've done all that we care to do in KSP and move on to the next programs in our lists. Resources seems to be a better investment for long term playability. Yeah, MP allows a real-time lunar race to happen. But once you've done it then what? And you can race against the clock now, best time wins, that kind of thing. Beyond that, what else is MP gonna offer?

Yeah, I read the wiki. Thanks everyone, I now a little smarter today. OK back on topic. Yeah resources over MP.

This might not be the best place to ask this because it might be slightly off topic but yet still maybe game related... How is helium-3 useful? Is it a useful fuel? Standard helium is not. So how is helium-3 an better? Anyone is allowed to answer by the way. It's been my understanding that helium is made at the decay of uranium to radium?? Or something like that. So they use helium deposits on Earth to help locate uranium deposits. Note, I am aware of the usefulness of helium in manufacturing, medical, other things. But as far as helium-3 is concerned, I don't see any grand uses to go to all that trouble to get it.

You left out one option -- "I will go to the dark side (MODS) for resources."

It would seem to me that it would be way easier to put in resources than to develope a multi-player mode. And if it's what the fans want most... I guess from Squad's perspective, they think they can sell to some of those hold-outs if it had multi-player mode too. But I think that may be somewhat the wrong crowd to target. People that want multi-player are usually the kind that just want to dominate others. To compete on a real time scale. People that like to think out their next agenda and plan and move with precision tend not to like multi-player because they like to take their time at making those decisions. So, if the multi-player crowd comes in, are they next going to ask for guns and shields? So much for science and more to fiction eh?

I remember writing some assembly stuff on the TMS9900 processor (16 bit processor, some of you old timers might know what computer that one is in). I did some timing tests for a very intensive processing routine. One of those tests was to determine if loading a byte was any faster than loading a 16 word. They were identical because the processor loaded 16 bits across the data bus reguardless of how many bits you actually wanted. If you wanted the byte (MSB or LSB) it fetched the whole word from memory first then threw out the byte you didn't want. I believe it was a limitation to the data size as wired onto the memory. I would imagine that our 64 bit processors and memory are wired the same way. You want 32 bits?, memory loads 64 and the other is discarded. There may be some buffering (in the loading of registers) if the next instruction is a read of the next 32 bits. But I kind of doubt it. Someone else might know and should offer some correction here, (I have not done any 64bit assembly) but how is 8 sequential byte reads done on a 64 bit processor? Is it one fetch, then shifted internally on the processor 8 times and fed into a register? Or is it 8 fetches from L1 cache?

Are they like real life, once lit they burn till exhausted? And what are the curves? High power at first and less later or other way around?

Background: With a steady supply of fuel now available at the edge of the Kerbin system, the rest of the Kerbol system is now at our fingertips. First question: what is that insanely bright light? Second question: Can I touch it? KRAK must know! No expense will be spared to find the answers! This will likely be the largest kraft that KRAK has ever built. It will also take a long time to reach it's destination so make it count. Primary Objectives: 1. Place a craft in low orbit around Kerbol ** Mission complete. Orbit is not perfect due to a slight in-efficiency of burn timing. Burning at 30 degrees before and continuing on through to -30 degrees pulled slightly more fuel than was calculated to need. Long burn windows was necessary because of real life needs of the operator. Smaller windows would be more efficient (closer to periapsis) but require much more time from me. Final orbit is 1095k by 21430k (slightly elliptical). Orbit period is 7 hours 16 minutes. Orbit speed is about 68400 meters per second. Surface speed is about 60000 meters per second. 2. Land(?) a craft on the surface(?) of Kerbol ** Deemed not possible - no attempt made. To land it is estimated a craft with more than 100K delta-v would be required at above orbit. Secondary Objectives: A. Bring a load of Kethane refined fuel up to the Minmas station. ** Mission completed as requested. Parameters: Determine whether the surface of Kerbol is solid by attempting to land a craft there. Be sure that there is a craft left in orbit around Kerbol to observe the descent of the lander ** First probe mission was to test delta-v requirements for permanent probe. First probe was commanded into surface, but appeared to explode at contact. Suspect solid. Rate of decent extremely fast. Restrictions: None Mission Commander: Bothersome Mission Due Date:12/13/13 ** Mission Completed 12/07/2013 Earth time. Link to Download save game (7z format) Mission report as follows: First step was to create probe that would test the needed delta-v requirements. This probe only needs to leave Kerbin's SOI so that a node can be set up to compute the DV needed to circularize the orbit. Test indicated 27600 from Kerbin height apoapsis. Photo of DV test probe. Next was to design and simulate test a craft to bring up a probe of similar design but for permanent operation around the sun. This probe would be about 80% heavier because of it would have twice the Xenon gas fuel needed to circularize the orbit. Also the craft would need a larger lift package and a liquid fuel boost system to take it to solar orbit. The liquid fuel using nuclear assist engines would be used in the slowing of orbit speed to bring the periapsis as close to the sun as possible. The lift package is designed in such a way as to not leave any space debris in orbit around Kerbin (Kerbin Clean Space Act Mandates). Space debris around the sun is acceptable because of the great distances and its extremely low likelihood of it posing a problem for any other crafts in future travels. Photo of LSO probe in construction. While the LSO probe was being constructed, a mission order was sent to Scott Kerman to fill all tanks with Kethane, convert to other fuels and fill those tanks and then top off the Kethane tanks and return to Arkeinen Station in orbit around Minmus. Photo of Lunar Miner in orbit around Minmus. Photo of Arkeinen Station coming into view. Photo of successful docking to Arkeinen Station. Next after this was the lift-off and orbit of the LSO Probe. It was a bright and sunny day for the local Kerbin population and we had record turnout of visitors to the KSP Space Center along with record sales for silvaneers and other swag. Signatures from previous Kerbonauts and tours were a plenty and the excitement was to the Mun. Children of all ages came to see the heaviest launch of a Kerbal made object so far. To The Stars was played on every public speaker for all to hear and sing. Imaginations soared high this day as promises were made to explore all the planets in Kerbalkind's reach and return home those secrets of the universe that all have sought and dreamed. Photo of Lift-off from KSC of LSO Probe. Photo of LSO Probe in orbit ready for ejection burn. Photo of LSO Probe before liquid fuel depletion. Photo of LSO Probe at separation of boost package. Photo of LSO Probe at separation of outer Xenon Gas tanks. Photo of LSO Probe at first solar periapsis. Photo of LSO Probe at seperation of inner disposable Xenon Gas tanks. Even though enough fuel was brought from Kerbin for a perfect solar oribit at an altitude of 1000K x 1000K, due to in-efficiencies in the burn cycles to save time, a slightly less than perfect orbit is obtained. This should still suffice as to it's job of collecting data and transmitting that data back to Kerbin. So far, it is determined that there is no Kethane gas in un-burned form on the surface of the sun. Only preliminary scans have been done (2 blocks). Later scientist might activate the sensor on the LSO probe to determine more conclusively if this is true. Photo of LSO Probe in completed mission orbit around the sun.

I'd like to see ANYONE put a liquid fuel powerd craft in orbit around the sun at say less than 50 million meters altitude circular orbit (without cheating of course). Then you'll know where Ions are needed.

That's just damned impressive. Are you going to let all the Kerbal kids pick up and take back a few Mun rocks from this little field trip?

OK I just un-coupled the last two tanks. Weight is now 13 tons. We're on our last 4 engines. Computer says we need 36 hours of burn to fully circulize the orbit. Calculations indicate we have 28 hours of fuel remaining. It may still be possible to have enough fuel because as the fuel burns off the craft gets lighter. Anyone think we'll make it to 1M x 1M Solar Orbit? Kaelen, are you able to see the pictures now?

I dunno about an early finish, because of the excessive amount of speed (and still increasing). At altitude 121.2M meters, the gravity is 8m/s/s. Current speed about 74,500. I have approximately 25.22 hours of burn time remaining with 6 engines. Later as the fuel gets below 66% I'll drop outter tanks and be left with only 4 engines. I'd estimate about 35 hours of total burn time remaining for this mission. I can't time accelerate much because of strange forces pulling on the ship. I have to reset it with 5x time acceleration occasionally. I can keep a situation snapshot posted here if ppl want to follow the progress. Here is the latest status post showing as much detail as I can in a snapshot... Click here for the full detail version.

I'm not at the bottom (periapsis) yet, at a target periapsis of 1.2m and current alt at 450m my current speed is 52,800 and still rising. I've had the thrust on for quite some time. My current apoapsis is 4,150m. I have 72,085 units of Xenon gas burning at 0.73 per second. I've taken a few screenies. Not to overdo it though. See post #91 in this thread to see the current status.

I figured all that was legal... Else why would it have been placed there? I've got my probe's periapsis down to 150m meters now (destination orbit <1m meters), but it will require something like 26,700 (if i remember correctly on the test) dv just to bring the apoapsis down. I've estimated about 45 hours of burn time on electrics to manage this. So, I just hope I'd have enough time in real life to complete this mission for you. Landing still seems to be out of the question though. To get any decent amount of liquid fuel at such a low orbit around the sun for landing would require astronomical burn times and fuel quantities.

Oh Yar, I've already got the game running. In fact, I'm in it right now doing a long burn now. I've launched a second probe to the sun because the first one was just a DV test to see how much was gonna be needed to get below 1 million meters. I think this second probe (using 72 Xenon tanks) has enough to get low enough now. However, I do not see any math that says it's possible to land a craft on the sun without cheating. If anyone has any math on what's required to land a craft on the sun let me know. Electrics are barely able to get low enough for what I'd call close. I had to use two gravity assists from the Mun so far (first was an assist to sling out to edge of SOI of Kerbin and then an adjustment to come in behind the Mun on the way back in for another boost. This all to save fuel.). I looked at the Kethane conversion but it looks as though the weight is more than just taking lots of Xenon from Kerbin, so I went with that option. It was still a good idea to put that mining station around Minmus, but I chose not use it for this mission. Xenon gas will get a probe low enough but Xenon cannot be used for landing. And taking tons of liquid fuel for the landing would require A WHOLE LOT MORE FUEL in low sun orbit. No, I mean a WHOLE LOT MORE. So landing a craft is out for me right now unless someone can come up with a nifty way to make it so. Right now, I just don't believe the math is there. PS, I use DropBox for my files that want to share. No ads.

You want to land a craft on the sun? Is this an un-manned craft? I would hope so, else we sacrifice a Kerbal. And your link isn't working. I'll have to install the Kethane mod first. OK I got 0.8.1 Kethane mod. Just to keep ya posted.

Yeah, I'm still alive. I hadn't been following the thread and my install is 0.22 stock. So what are my orders?

I don't know the mass right off the top of my head. As I was more concerned with how much fuel went to space for refueling missions. But I've put 18 full orange tanks into orbit quite a few times. Link to the craft page

To me, I think what hurts the most is how they misled the public into believing that X-Rebirth was going to be THE-NEXT-BIG-THING and very similar game play to the X3 series. When in fact, it was/is far from what we were led to believe. It's not that they wanted to get into console games, it's that they wanted their PC fan base to "pay the costs" of the crossover. Sell a bunch of copies of a promised game that was nothing like it was being promised. You also should know it was 7 years in the making. Fans waiting and trying to stay faithful to Egosoft for 7 years of a great finger-in-your-face kind of game. Then outright lying and hinding behind NDAs and selected press releases to keep up the hype. The fans fell for it. Hook, line, and sinker. And now look at the damage control Egosoft is trying to put out. At this point, it might be better to just patch it a couple of times and bow out (keeping the money of course). Point is, we really don't want Squad making any kind of similar mistakes. Keeping the fan base posted as to the REAL direction of the product has got to be a good thing. Egosoft decided to go the other way and look where they are now. There is so much potential with KSP. It is the very reason you have a strong fan base for it. Sure it's an early release and has a few bugs, but that's OK as long as we're honest about it. We know Squad isn't perfect, we don't expect them to be. I guess what I'm trying to say is, we need to give thanks where it is due. So, thanks Squad for including us in your road map.

I'm not sure if this thread should go here so Moderators should move it necessary. First I'd like to say thanks to Squad for their openness of information about their development of KSP. I feel Squad is doing the right thing with their policies of asking the fan base what they'd like to see in future development and actually trying to implement it. Even though we sometimes demand more of them than what's feasible. They are still doing a fantastic job. We fans tend to push a little hard and harsh sometimes but it's only because we care. Now I would like to point Squad to what's going on in a similar game that just got release. I'm also a fan of the X3 series from Egosoft. I've pretty much played the X3 series up one side and down the other. Modded them this way and that. Great games. Recently Egosoft release their new game X-Rebirth, and it was/is a disaster. Mainly because of Egosoft trying to dump their long PC fan base for the console markets. I would urge Squad take a couple of hours and review the goings on as to what kind of damage control Egosoft is now going through because of a series of "bad moves" on management's part at Egosoft. It could be a very good thing to know when making direction decisions at Squad. Egosoft had a very strong (I dare say stronger than what Squad has) base of adamant fans. It is just amazing at how just a few bad moves, all the while hiding behind NDAs and very controlled press releases have turned Egosoft into a -- well, I'd best not try to put it into words here. Anyway, take a look into it, and please Squad, don't try to do what they did. It won't work.

The size of float is based on how the compiler is implementing it. A proper compiler can float 1024 bits or even more if desired. Speed takes a hit when you have to operate on more bits than your processor can load in at once. Thus, 64 bit is going to be quicker than a 32 bit processor. Especially on math intensive programs, and that is exactly what KSP is.

It's all fun and games right now. But if Squad were to implement some type of learning for these kerbals, some kind of neural simulation processing that would really put them into the AI catagory, people would really try to take care of their Kerbals because each one would be unique. Especially if they learned anything based on missions or training they had been on. For an example of how you can make neural connections (as a simulation) check this web page. Of course, that page is not really learning anything, only evolving to the next generations. But the connections of how things can be made to respond is what is important. Learning involve something making new connections without having to have an offspring to do it. This game has so much potential for doing all sorts of great things and capturing the hearts and minds of a very large audience. If the kerbals had some form of AI growth that the players contributed to, people would probably get really attached to them like pets. Thoughts, comments, criticism?

Way too many hours. No, I mean WAY too many. No, more than that. You still too low. Let's just forget it shall we?

Well, the gist of what I think Squad was trying to do was to get people to go explore further places. To do that you had to build bigger crafts. I think Squad should fix it so that you can only transmit data for points from a given location only once. And samples should not be able to be transmitted at all.

I think you need think through the mission BEFORE you head out. Figure out what your goals are, write em down, then build to meet those goals. Of course experience in each part of the mission helps but you gotta start somewhere. Take a look at this mission to Tylo and Laythe story I wrote up some time ago. It should give you a little more understanding what you might need to plan for. Then you might ask for help on how to do certain parts of your mission and be more likely to get help that's not so general.