azza276

Cool, thanks.

Would that bug be in the B9 wings too?

I just made one up for B9. like literally just then when I saw youtr post. With the modders permission I will post up. That being said Tortoise, is it ok if I put up a Fuel Wings B9 config? You are more than welcome to use it. Also I noted in your FW.cfg, you are missing the 'g' in fuselage for the structuralwing3 (about line 77). these are the B9 wings I added fuel to;

Good Stuff.

Thanks Jim. I was talking about the Modular Fuel Tanks Mod, just trying to avoid typing too many words - digital shorthand, sorry if it caused confusion. For the pWings, I'd be happy to look at that but I don't know what to look for. The configs don't seem to yield much so the code may be in its plugin dll... And like I said, ferram may know how to check the wing size. Or could the mass indicate a suitable fuel load? e.g. Add 1 unit of fuel for every 0.001 ton then add fuel mass? I see what you mean by it being difficult to check which parts are actual wings... Do you have (or could make) any configs for B9 wings? Cheers Azza

I fixed that issue between it and the APAS (from the SovietPack). The docks on both the APAS and PMA look identical, but would not dock, I thought it was some "can only dock to the same part" thing, but remembered there are the clamp-o-tron and shield docking ports that do, so played around in the configs of the PMA and APAS. I worked out if you change the PMA attachrules to allowsurfattach, by changing the bolded value to 1. My PMA Config And then on the APAS, added the same docking port parameters as the PMA, by adding the bolded parameters. My APAS

I really love the concept of this mod, but am holding off for 2 reasons. 1. Having to pick between Liquid or LOX before starting the game. I think this could easily be integrated with Modular Fuels (I'll consider the config posted above as a hotfix), but so that it isn't a dependency you should just make the wing Liquid fuel only (since generally when using wings, you have a air-breathing engine). 2. P-Wing/all wing integration. I'm no programmer, but there should be some way to determine wing size and feed that back into Fuelwings, FAR appears to do it in the editor... I'd be happy if there was a "recalculate" button in the editor. Also applying to all wing part loaded (not specify only squad wings) would allow use of B9 wings etc. Keep up the great work.

Brilliant Idea! This also makes it a little more realistic in that a lot of aircraft nowadays store fuel in the wings. Can this be applied to B9 and/or Procedural Wings?

Yeah, maybe... I do have my Win8 machine running all the time (well not always running, but just in sleep when not using) I haven't restarted for quite some time, even still I had been starting, running and closing KSP multiple times with all those mods previously with no OS restarts. Oh just remembered another Mod I installed and it was precise node... although may get rid of it as I find it a little cumbersome, but did like the way it mapped trajectories. Anywho, might look at removing interstellar and precise and reinstall 1.4.2 to confirm.

I'm with Quinantine on this one, although it does note it in the change log, I would like the option to turn it off (well should be off by default and I I would have to turn it on if I wanted it.) I don't know if it is a bug or not, but my KSP crashed when changing from the space center to the main menu... the last item to try to load before crashing was the toolbar... This was with 1.4.2. I have reinstalled 1.4.1 but haven't started the game again since, so can't say if it is still doing it. Mind you it could be the number of mods I'm running... will keep you posted. I did have some game load and in game loading crashes prior to this and removed some recently added mods (which were added at the same time as 1.4.2) but had removed those and it still crashed. Only mod still running that I had installed recently was KSP interstellar... Some other Mods Running were: B9 KW MechJeb Quantum Struts Infernal Robotics Shuttle Engines (Klockheed Martin ones I think) Docking Port Alignment Crew Manifest RCS Aid FAR VOID Toolbar 1.4.1 Mod Manager 1.5.6 (I think that's all of them) It was stable with those. Last night installed; KSP Interstellar Toolbar 1.4.2 Active Texture Reduction Clouds and City Lights. So loaded and played fine (did a first Mun Mission in Career). went out of the game, went back in, stalled during load. removed active Textures. loaded fine but Clouds not working right so tweaked graphical settings, crashed during tracking center load.removed clouds and city lights. Game ran fine but when backing out of the game crashed during main menu load as described above. I'm aware this may be RAM crashes, so will be looking at installing the non-active texture reductions for squad/b9/kw. Considering it was stable before the last lot of Mods, I thought I'd try removing those first, apart from interstellar. Otherwise it will be Mod cull time I hate how I can't use more than 4GB of ram... damn you 32bit Edit: Also running Alarm Clock and simple part organiser.

10 past Midnight (now the 18th), I might as well go to bed. No .23 for me tonight... At least Australia won the Ashes.

Well I gave it a good red hot go, but I still cannot get the TiberDyne shuttle flying forward... I don't like giving up and the challenge is no longer enjoyable. Thanks for all your help Ferram. I made some positive steps, just could not get over the last hurdle I think. My lack of experience in these kinds of things and lack of knowledge of how FAR works was working against me. If I get bored again, I might look into it. Cheers Azza

Ok, getting there. Got the CoL of the wings sorted, (orientation of the attach nodes on the +/- x plane. That being said, should the x-plane direction be so that the wing is physically correct in orientation IRT the surface. e.g. left wing X plane is - toward the tip from the root. set node orientation to x+ )to toward the surface to attach to and the wing is in the correct physical orientation. Obviously when orientation is x- the wing the upside down (but the orientation is pointing toward the tip) Just want to see what is the best (correct) orientation for FAR. But, I have tried with both and it still want to fly backwards. I have confirmed no unattached stack nodes, all stack nodes names correctly, CoL is behind CoM (maybe a little too far, but it flips when pitching up, not when flying and nosing down). Its like the nose has too much drag but there are no unassigned stack (or attach) nodes. Drag settings seem nominal. Is there a FAR model I can use for fuselage parts? Also is FAR affected by scaling?

Ok, been playing around a bit and still no luck... I think I am close though. The issue now seems that the FARWingAerodynamicModel applied to the right wing is causing issues. What I see is I have the model (cockpit and cargo) and everything centreline. I add the right wing and the CoL moves backwards but stays on the centreline. Add the left wing and the CoL moves to the left. Remove the right wing and the CoL sits on the left wing. So the FAR aero model module works on the left wing but when the same settings are applied to the right wing, it moves the CoL to the left of the wing. Is there anyway of mirroring the module for the right wing? I tried some of the values with a - sign, no change. I even changed the nodes orientations and that had no affect. Ran without the stack nodes and surfaced attached, no change, commented out the FAR module (to apply the default) shuttle still flips out, even though the CoL sits just behind the CoM. I know you said it is designed for symmetrical wings etc, just wondering if it is mirrorable for the right wing? (Or left if that is the actual issue...) Cheers Azza

Sorry, I think I got a little confused... But don't you mean aerodynamics model for the fuselage uses the Stack nodes for drag, and for the wings use the attach nodes for orientation (e.g. calculating AoA?) I think I still need further explanation of the use of nodes. So does a fuselage have attach nodes? or does it just allow surfattach? Are attach nodes used on non-stacking parts to specify the point at which that part connects to the surface (of a fuselage) and rotates around that node (when ghosted to that surface) when in the VAB/SPH? Only reason I think I am getting confused is because I did try to change some of the stacked nodes to attach nodes (making sure to name the attach node properly) but they didn't show the green ball in the SPH, and could snap them to each other, they were in the same position as the stack node just defined them as attach. So my questions above are based on what I saw, and just want to confirm this is normal behavior or have I right royally stuffed up the cfg? Cheers

Well Bugger me that is brilliant, and makes so much sense now... So that tails, node and stack nodes are in the same position, just one is oriented 180 (so one node is say angy+1 and the other angy-1). So would this also apply to the top and bottom stacks? I note in the Wiki for the cfg that it says But the Tibers stacking sections (nose, cockpit, cargobay etc) are all angy 1.0 (form memory). Would changing these to +/- top/bottom (front/rear) cancel out the fuselage lift characteristics? How would I apply this to the wing nodes. fuselage angy+1 and wing angy-1, or both angy+1. Would the Ferram properties added to the wings negate this effect? Dammit, I'm so keen to knock of work now to try all these ideas...

Thanks Ferram, That it gold. I'm not 100% on what you are talking about with the tail fin nodes (don't worry not asking for more explanation), but I will have a look at a few examples and figure it out. So what you are saying about the nodes is if one if left "unattached" it can affect the dynamics, but if it is used/attached, it is no longer taken into account for calcs? Also does it matter if they are stack or attach nodes? I can't really find any definition on the nodes except ones for vertical (stack) and ones for Horizontal (attach) but again that was old data, 0.15 to 0.20. Are attach nodes for defining the pivot point when surface attaching? Sorry for all the questions, but as I get my head around one aspect, more questions become apparent. Cheers Azza

Thanks Ferram, Yeah, that could be it, Tiberion's wings attach to the cargo bay with nodes (stacked) and are not able to be symmetried (obviously not a word but you know what I mean). The Left and right wings are separate parts, although I did try deleting the nodes and allowing surf attachment and was able to build it, but still unflyable. Tiberion thought that nodes and their sizes also had an affect and from some testing I did, it does have and affect on the CoL, for example he has a robotic arm attachment point on the front right corner of the cargo bay which seems to pull the CoL to the right, also it was suggested to change the node size from small at the front to large at the rear. I also tried Bobcats Buran last night and it seemed to have large nodes all over (including the left and right wings) but still flew straight (until I botched the reentry and just flat spun). I did note that he had 2 arm nodes, one on each side (balanced). I will have a look at the cfg for the wing "attributes" mentioned in camlost's second point (I did note it before but I thought I read somewhere that FAR would use default values if none are specified), as well as the nodes again (I stopped last night as it was starting to bug out my save file and I wanted to try bobcats buran.) I'll also see if I can determine the origin. What specifically about the origin is important. Does it need to be central to the part (x0,y0,z0 physically)? Or does it need to be at a wing root, theoretical wing CoM, etc? I'm assuming the origin is defined in the model. Cheers Azza

This is the first version of your shuttles I have downloaded. so don't have the old engine. I did modify the craft file and replace bearcat with jupiter, but it angles wrong so will take that craft and add the appropriate engine. Yeah, I have just been playing with the node sizes/position and even removed the cargo bay internal ones as well as the wing ones. I'll continue to play... Cheers Azza

Hi Tiberion, First of all I love your shuttles, they look exquisite and the best I've seen. Unfortunately I have FAR installed (and love that too) which makes your shuttles unflyable in Atmo. Well, just so you know, I tried playing with some of the part config settings and shuttle design to try to see if I can get your shuttle flying in FAR, as I'm sure there's a few of us out there that would like to get them both working in Harmony. Well config file stuff, none of the changes I had made really did anything, but one thing I added was angulardrag for the wing/tail parts. seemed to make it little more stable to get off the ground but it still flipped out at speed. After a bit more I was actually able to get a Tiberdyne Shuttle Flying! what I found was if you swapped the cargo module front to back, then put the wings and engines back on, it will fly. So from that, I can only conclude that there is something in your cargo module that is causing it to flip out. I tried adjusting it's setting as well as the "welded" RCS module, but no luck to date. I hope you don't mind, but I posted in the FAR forum Thread asking Ferram for some help in getting your shuttles to fly forward. I will happily provide any findings back to you so you can incorporate them into your shuttles if you wish (I have no real interest in taking credit, I just want to use your shuttle with FAR). But I won't be able to test with Stock aerodynamics. Let me know if you have any drama with this course of action. Cheers Azza Edit: Oh yeah, also have an issue with loading Odyssey in the SPH. It seams I don't have the bearcat engines. Tried downloading again for both sources and Bearcat not in either. Where can I find this engine?

Hi Ferram, I've only been playing KSP since soon after .22 was released and so far love it. I also love the FAR mod. I love the more realistic aerodynamics and the challenge of building a plane that flies realistically. Although I have had my frustrations, pitching too high and flipping etc, etc. But anyway, that's not why I'm here. I'm sure you may of heard of and seen the TiberDyne Shuttle craft/parts (TiberDyne Shuttle). I don't know if you are aware that they are unflyable with FAR, essentially, they fly backwards! I had a search through this thread and the forum and could not see any relationship between the two other than a few other complaining about it in the Tiberdyne Thread. So now to the guts of it. Can you help? I took it upon my self to look into the part config files that make up the shuttles last night. I used the B9 Aerospace and Squad parts as a reference and tried to match things like drag and lift for similar sized equivalent parts, it is a little more stable but still in the end they just fly backwards. One thing I did add to the wings was angular drag. I tried a crazy thing and built one of the shuttles myself keeping an eye on CoM, CoL, etc and slotting in parts from B9 etc to try to see if it was one particular part that was causing the issue. From what I could see was that most of the parts are good until... the cargo fuselage... When the cargo fuselage is mounted onto the back of the cockpit (no wings), the CoL is not vertical, but points forward at a roughly 45 degree angle centered over where Tiberion has the docking port node. Once you add the wings and engine, the CoL comes drastically rearward and rear of the CoM, but still has a slight lean forward. I then flipped the Cargo fuselage back to front, whacked the wings on it etc (all tiberdyne parts) and IT FLEW Straight forward! It was controllable, got into orbit and returned (although with the SAS on after reentry it shuddered the control surfaces and the tail plane ripped off... but I still able to land it). Back in the SPH, I looked at the CoL with the reversed cargo and no wings and the CoL was now at the rear but pointing down. Weird I thought, so played around with the CoM offset and a few things, but was never able to adjust that. I also noted that the Part was an RCS tank module "welded" to it at the normally rear position of the cargo. So my Questions; 1. How much does FAR use the Models to calculate things. I'm not a 3d modeller so unable to see that actual models except in KSP. 2. What does FAR/KSP use to calculate lift of a non-lifting surface (no lift defined in the part cfg) 3. What aspects of the part.cfg does FAR use. Which values should I look at changing? The Parts are all in the Tiberdyne Shuttle Mod in the Link at the beginning, as well as some crafts. I will put a post in the Tiberdyne thread as well so that he is aware of this. I would really like to get the Tiberdyne Shuttle Mod working with FAR, as I love FAR and the Tiberdyne shuttles are just really good looking just not flyable with FAR. I'd love to keep both. Cheers Azza p.s. I actually joined the forum to write this... Cheers for your help.